End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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D
Userlevel 3
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Following the email regarding recycling, I went onto my account on my mobile phone and my SONOS controllers were all up for recycling.

Given I was unsure how recycling worked I clicked on all 4 controllers and hit the recycle button expecting to see more info around next steps.

I did this because the T&C’s clearly stat recycling must be confirmed in the app so there was little danger in seeing how the process worked.

To my surprise all 4 controllers were immediately put in recycle mode!

I can’t have the controllers bricked in 21 days as as my children use them daily given they are too young to have phones. If I lose the controllers they will not be able to use the products, of which I have all over the house.

To try and rectify this, I sent an email to SONOS support Case #: 01477031, no reply

I used the chat facility twice and was told to call the support number.

I called the support number and was told the website kicks off the recycling immediately for the controllers, and they will stop working in 21 days!

I explained this is clearly against the T&C’s, and you can not just kill my 4 controllers when I have paid £100’s for them and use them daily. They said this would be escalated Case #: 01493858, but I’ve not heard anything over the weekend.

Could someone from SONOS please help me resolve this please. I feeling pretty desperate, I simply need the recycling status removed from the controllers, but it feels no one from SONOS really cares.

try emailing the CEO here:   patrick.spence@sonos.com

U
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

Greetings, All (though SONOS probably won’t read this; they’ll all be lying down in darkened rooms or revising their CVs).

Having followed this for a few days of days (has it only been that long?), here are my (final) thoughts. 

I’ve been researching and collating quite a lot recently and this is the repository of my current impressions.  I’ll be posting it in both https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969 and https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-a-pragmatic-way-past-it-6836056 .  Apologies if this is long; it’s become complex; but is definitely no rant, just my personal views.

The CEO’s email does nothing to allay my own fears going forward.  I have legacy and ‘modern’ (for now) dumb, (not voice) audio devices within ear-shot of each other.  My only route is to keep my system locked in its present form as they confirm that legacy and modern system areas cannot be grouped in synchrony https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/will-i-still-be-able-to-group-new-and-old-products-together-and-receive-updates-on-newer-products-6836043 .  I suspect this is a consequence of the decision that SONOS made in its infancy to have distributed rather than centralized intelligence using a Precision Time Protocol (probably IEEE 1588-2002).  This is worth a read: https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/how-it-started but I expect it’s had consequences as soon as the design philosophy was set; the 65k limit for example and the inability to use anything other than PCM stereo.  SONOS architecture was set with “Any Song. Any Room.”  Frankly anything else has always been a stretch and I suspect this distributed intelligence would preclude the much vaulted request to have a central memory hub handling legacy devices.

SONOS’ recent decision over legacy devices may eventually open up lots of new possibilities, which the user community has been asking for on these pages for many years.  These could include bluetooth, and any number of ‘cinema’ enhancements (DTS or Dolby Atmos), but clearly voice seems to be something of a next step after buying Snips (https://investors.sonos.com/news-and-events/investor-news/latest-news/2019/Sonos-Announces-Acquisition-of-Snips/default.aspx).  In order to make use of this it will have to weather its recent storm.  For the time being SONOS is a cash-wealthy company; I think Snips cost $37M and back in September 2019 they announced a $50M stock buy back programme.  They apparently have $298.5M cash (https://thefly.com/landingPageNews.php?id=2957758&headline=SONO-Sonos-approves-M-share-repurchase-program). SONOS has also been bringing to market a lot of new devices and speakers in recent years.  While most of these are just new versions of old, the line-up has expanded with ‘architectural solutions’ (speakers to you and me) and the Move.  I think this has been long overdue and may have tempted new adopters to multi-room ecosystems to plump for SONOS in comparison to any of the increasing number of alternatives, especially for people with outdoor spaces.  The point here is even new versions or old solutions plus the new devices will have been expensive to develop.  I think SONOS has been wise to expand its line-up.

Among technology journalists, the reaction to SONOS’ decision over legacy devices has been a bit of a shrug, in my opinion.  Lots of “Well, what do you expect from tech?”, “SONOS has been brave in coming clean over this” and “This is probably the first, but not the last time we hear of this”.  In contrast, the user community has been livid.  Within a few hours of the announcement the first forum (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products-6835470) had 1378 replies, 53464 views and reached 56 pages before being closed down for reasons that I cannot fathom, except SONOS didn’t like what they were hearing.  The later one (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969) now stands at roughly 2250 replies, 97,882 views and ~103 pages and counting.  Almost entirely universally the comments are highly critical and damning of the recent decision.  They accuse SONOS of being arrogant and the announcement hastily announced, crude in nature and a slap in the face to those who have spent the most over the longest period and who have probably been the most evangelical about the brand for the longest time to friends and family. 

This loss of trust that very many now feel is precisely because most brand or ecosystem adopters don't (can’t) rush out and fill a house with devices; instead they build systems over many years as needs evolve and funds allow and when an announcement of this magnitude drops into the inbox of the most loyal customers then the consequence is the fury that was unleashed.  While SONOS did hint at this in their Annual Report (https://s22.q4cdn.com/672173472/files/doc_financials/2019/q4/52d86c5b-248f-4939-aa85-1489c1828e7f.pdf#page=17) and they spell out very many risk factors that the company faces; these are both external and internal to the company itself and some are as a result of being a relatively small and niche technology entity where the sector is changing rapidly and dominated by some extremely powerful competitors.  Many of these registered risks are probably familiar to business students through to company Directors however, a most relevant risk here it that: “We may choose to discontinue support for older versions of our products, resulting in customer dissatisfaction that could negatively affect our business and operating results.”  I wonder when the Board was signing off this Report whether they really understood the potential for this risk to bite and whether they have accurately modelled it for financial and reputational impact.  Only they know but, I imagine they have been completely blind-sided by the response.  The evidence is here: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.sonos.com, with 80% ‘Bad’ reviews out of 910 posted and a TrustScore of 1.3 out of 5.  This is just about as low as it’s possible to get since the lowest post is 1; secondly, that this community topic (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969) and the previously closed one (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products-6835470) are those with the biggest number of replies, by far.  Thirdly, their share price has taken a hit (down ~2%, https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/sono), but this will take some time to work through.  SONOS are expected to post revenue of between $1.365B and $1.4B, roughly 9.5% annual growth (https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/05/why-sonos-stock-climbed-128-in-december.aspx) though it will be interesting to know more when they announce their most recent financial results and host a Q&A (https://investors.sonos.com/news-and-events/investor-news/latest-news/2020/Sonos-Announces-Date-for-First-Quarter-2020-Financial-Results-and-Conference-Call/default.aspx).  Lastly, though the journalists are a bit ‘shruggy’ the rest of the web is not. A quick online search reveals all you need to know.

Sadly I think SONOS’ philosophy has been crumbling for quite a while.  Recent and not so recent updates that offer system improvements have often resulted in the opposite in my opinion.  Here are several examples:

1    Upcoming changes to ‘On this iPhone or iPad’ Playback (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/upcoming-changes-to-on-this-iphone-or-ipad-playback-6826585) is the third most replied to forum topic and describes the loss of a feature.

2    Updates to the Desktop Controller Coming Soon (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/updates-to-the-desktop-controller-coming-soon-6813300) is the fourth most replied to form topic and begins with a long-requested visual update, but most people preferred the blue version it seems.  Importantly though this ‘refresh’ removed:

  • Setting up or transferring a system
  • Adding a player to existing system
  • The ability to bond/unbond players (surrounds, stereo pairs, or adding a Sub).
  • Registering players
  • TV setup for Beam, Playbase, and Playbar,
  • Enabling parental controls
  • Network settings and management
  • Line-in settings
  • Renaming a Room
  • Opting in or out of a beta program
  • Resetting your Sonos account password (you can still do so on a computer via sonos.com)

This turned out to be an attack on many fronts.  Importantly, it requires users to have up to date tablets or phones to do the management of the system, whereas it used to be possible to manage the entirety of the system with the desktop application and allowed older devices to still be used as everyday controllers.  SONOS’ decision here is decidedly anti-ethical and a non-sustainability practise and seemingly against their Responsibility pledge for wider Product Design and Supply Chain (https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/sustainability), but SONOS have never really opened up about this.  Importantly it also prevents users, or installers maintaining systems using Remote Desktop applications, which was nuts.

3    Android Devices no longer able to join SonosNet (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/android-devices-no-longer-able-to-join-sonosnet-6825471).  I asked SONOS help about this and their response was two-fold.  Firstly removing the feature, which was little used, apparently (though looking through support revealed a solid fan base) would free up device memory for other purposes.  Also, SONOS sort-of feared it might be related to electronic interference between the network and amplification circuitry.  These are my words but I did have a P5s replaced under warranty for issues around electronic interference, which SONOS said they could not replicate.  At the time it was a fantastic managed-AP though, well if you used Android.

The sad thing is that SONOS seemingly are very closed about their decision making any have never allowed user options.  The system is locked and updates irreversible.  Technically I don’t quite buy this since it is possible to reverse a beta upgrade, so it must be theoretically possible to wind the firmware back.  If I could, I’d probably like to revert to something around the 6.x or 7.x era and if I could fix the volume down ramp I would.

It’s not all doom and gloom as SONOS have introduced a few new features, most recently Amazon music HD though there is confusion about whether it really is HD if it’s called for by Alexa and the company are promising a fix.  Also, the loss then reinstatement of Audible, where the fix took quite a while to be sorted.  And this is the crux of issues into the future.  SONOS has been quite good about telling customers in advance when third party integrations will stop working and have a desire to maintain this, but if you have a legacy device in your system this will stop though when the third party company changes its protocols you will lose functionality and I imagine there won’t be a fix for this. 

Another driver for UK (and VPN) users could be related to the fact that the BBC is due to release a significant update for BBC SOUNDS in 2020 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/supported-devices/connected-tv) albeit for smart TVs.  It might just be the case that this also brings the on-demand features of BBC SOUNDS to SONOS and other aggregators and streamers, but presumably not if your system is legacy.  The on-demand content of BBC Radio, music and podcasts now through SOUNDS has been a perennial request to SONOS across many request forums.  By the way if you listen to BBC Radio on your SONOS then look at this: http://steveseear.org/high-quality-bbc-radio-streams/ for advice.  While there’s less meta-data available I find these streams more reliable than from the aggregators.  I used to use minimserver (https://minimserver.com/) to handle this, but now access the BBC streams directly.

Final issues: ~7W on ‘standby’ isn’t really acceptable anymore.  It might have been fine when lightbulbs were 60-100W but we can now light a house for the electrical cost of SONOS on standby, but this isn’t a rant!

So where does this leave us all?  SONOS are definitely in a flat spin about all this, or should be.  It’s highly unusual for the CEO to apologise about the way they handled a situation, but they are seemingly staying firm.  As mentioned above if I cannot group modern and legacy then all my system will remain legacy and I’ll probably ditch SONOS, which will be a pity.  A lot will depend on the situation between now and May and also what happens to the company and its customer relations and financial (sales) situation.  At worst I may keep some small areas of SONOS but expect something else to largely take over and the system to be relegated.  I bought into “The smart home sound system.” And SONOS’ “Our DNA – The connected home.” (https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/our-company)  This has to be one system, not two and trading up with a 30% discount when prices were recently raised makes me look the fool.  What this exactly means will depend on imagined future habits and where the software and hardware platforms go, plus what happens to various streaming services.  I don’t think it’ll be BOSE, more likely Yamaha for their integrated amp setup, plus standalone speakers, or something bespoke.  There world is moving very fast!  Will see…, but I will be extremely hesitant and cautious about recommending the SONOS platform to anyone in the future.  The brand has sadly lost my trust, but I understand that everyone is free to make their own decisions. 

Anyway, I hope this post might help you be better informed so you can make your choices.

Cheers, All and well done for reading this far.  Remember, it is only stuff!

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +2

It's good to know that there are so many people who understand multiroom audio better than its inventors and patent holders.  

Oh of course I forgot. Sonos are being totally dishonest about this. Or is it just that they are stupid.  I forget.

The reaction to my post is entirely what I  expected. 

John,

I don’t think anybody ever said they understood multiroom audio better than Sonos but I do believe we understand what they have said, and still say on their website:

https://www.sonos.com/en-ca/listen-your-way

Create your perfect sound system.

Everything works together, and Sonos works with all your favourite services so you can listen to what you want, where you want, how you want.

Customize your system

Start with one speaker and easily add more later. Stereo pair speakers in the same room for bolder, richer sound. Connect Sub to Playbar, Playbase, or Beam for deeper bass, then add a pair of rear surrounds for immersive surround sound. Hook up your turntable to Play:5 (doesn’t specify Gen 2) or Amp to stream vinyl all around your home.

Listen in any room

All Sonos speakers and components connect over WiFi so you can build the system you want. Put on a podcast in the bedroom while someone else watches TV in the living room, or group all your speakers to play music in sync.

 

You seem to want us to trust what Sonos is saying but I can’t reconcile the different positions they are simultaneously taking. Please tell me how their present above statements are still true in the mixed environment they are proposing? How will I be able to “easily add more later” and “group all your speakers” if I have even a single legacy component?

Hey there John B - the founder of SONOS (the one who built the company up to what it is) is no longer with the company.   The new CEO behind this policy also (i) revised the privacy policy so if i didn’t agree to share my data my system would be bricked, and (ii) bricked the first SONOS controller that came out (and then settled a class action lawsuit that came from it).  So, I would say SONOS’s current CEO doesn’t know jack s*** about what his customers want in multiroom audio.  All he is trying to do is to turn a speaker system (some of which are physically built into a home) and turn it into a disposable product.   

If SONOS wants to build “computers” then just build the computer part and allow me to plug whatever speaker I want into it.     

K
Userlevel 6
Badge +3

Perhaps when Sonos stop selling a product they need to pull all the supply out of their supply chain?


SELL OR USE BY DATE is the answer.

Between the helpful information Ryan provided about multiple versions of the same product (Connects/Connect Amps/etc.still sold by Sonos up until recently but with more power than the older builds) still in the marketplace + this mess of trying to understand when EXACTLY Sonos will drop support for this mix of products, Sonos should really just STAMP a Sell By or Use By date on every single product.  It’ll be easier for their reseller partners and especially for US their ‘once’ loyal-repeat-customers and brand evangelist.

T
Userlevel 1

I've been a loyal fan of Sonos. I've never had an issue with the sound quality or performance. Customer service has been outstanding and they have properly and expediantly addressed some of my past issues. But now this!! Boy do I feel like a sucker. Had I known this 5 years ago when I invested $3000 into the system I certainly would have looked, and chosen, another alternative. All future stereo investment will not likely include Sonos unless they seriously reconsider the needs of existing customers. This decision is a complete and total deal breaker.

U
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

Reply to The Epic Post (which I won’t quote!)

That is a very interesting post. 
Reading that page about the history of Sonos just makes me sad. A decade or so ago they were truly pioneering and achieving great things in audio. Now what have they got? Nothing you can’t replicate with a £25 Echo Dot and software that would look identical to how it did 10 years ago if it wasn’t for all the stuff they’ve ripped out of it. 
The bit I disagree with is the suggestion that a distributed architecture that they started with in 2003 buys them slack for this current decision. 
The bottom line remains that these are general purpose computing devices with remotely updateable software - the architecture can be changed, but only if they care enough to do it. 

P
Userlevel 5
Badge +1

It's good to know that there are so many people who understand multiroom audio better than its inventors and patent holders.  

Oh of course I forgot. Sonos are being totally dishonest about this. Or is it just that they are stupid.  I forget.

The reaction to my post is entirely what I  expected. 

John,

I don’t think anybody ever said they understood multiroom audio better than Sonos but I do believe we understand what they have said, and still say on their website:

https://www.sonos.com/en-ca/listen-your-way

Create your perfect sound system.

Everything works together, and Sonos works with all your favourite services so you can listen to what you want, where you want, how you want.

Customize your system

Start with one speaker and easily add more later. Stereo pair speakers in the same room for bolder, richer sound. Connect Sub to Playbar, Playbase, or Beam for deeper bass, then add a pair of rear surrounds for immersive surround sound. Hook up your turntable to Play:5 (doesn’t specify Gen 2) or Amp to stream vinyl all around your home.

Listen in any room

All Sonos speakers and components connect over WiFi so you can build the system you want. Put on a podcast in the bedroom while someone else watches TV in the living room, or group all your speakers to play music in sync.

 

You seem to want us to trust what Sonos is saying but I can’t reconcile the different positions they are simultaneously taking. Please tell me how their present above statements are still true in the mixed environment they are proposing? How will I be able to “easily add more later” and “group all your speakers” if I have even a single legacy component?

Hey there John B - the founder of SONOS (the one who built the company up to what it is) is no longer with the company.   The new CEO behind this policy also (i) revised the privacy policy so if i didn’t agree to share my data my system would be bricked, and (ii) bricked the first SONOS controller that came out (and then settled a class action lawsuit that came from it).  So, I would say SONOS’s current CEO doesn’t know jack s*** about what his customers want in multiroom audio.  All he is trying to do is to turn a speaker system (some of which are physically built into a home) and turn it into a disposable product.   

If SONOS wants to build “computers” then just build the computer part and allow me to plug whatever speaker I want into it.     

Exactly. And it doesn’t matter how hard a few people try to tell us we bought into a computer system, most people who bought Sonos thought they were spending top bucks for a high quality, audiophile(ish) system that would last as long as every other audio component they owned (including NB getting software updates to maintain basic functionality!!) We never expected our turntables to be able to play CDs, but my 35 year old turntable still does the basic job I bought it for.

K
Userlevel 1

How to lose existing customers in one easy lesson well done Sonos, I will most certainly look at other products in the future my system is less than 3 years old and you tell me its obsolete. ££££££ of £ waisted

An ex customer

K
Userlevel 6
Badge +3

Sonos speakers are not just speakers. They are essentially computers, and computers that need to constantly communicate with each other. Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree. And therefore consistent with much of the outrage on the ridiculous thread.


With all due respect John, While many of us long-time contributors to this forum know that your are a long-time avid Sonos supporter to the nth degree, to state that this is a “ridiculous thread” shows that you yourself are horribly biased.  These posts are from real people who invested thousands of hard-earned dollars (and lots of time) in real whole-home-audio solutions to play music and audio, sold by high-end audio retailers.  To just write them off as whiners who should have had all the technical foresight to ignore Sonos’s push for audio (not computers) in their extensive marketing and sales campaigns is unkind at best.   Sonos stands for SOUND not personal computers.  The arguments are valid and real in these posts and let them be.  

D
Userlevel 3
Badge

Can someone whose been around here for a while compare this to when Sonos EOL their controllers? Sounded like they pissed off a lot of loyal customers when they did that, but just rode it out and the newer customers don’t even know what happened. Is that what’s going to happen here?

I
Userlevel 1

It's good to know that there are so many people who understand multiroom audio better than its inventors and patent holders.  

Oh of course I forgot. Sonos are being totally dishonest about this. Or is it just that they are stupid.  I forget.

The reaction to my post is entirely what I  expected. 

There is some question as to whether Sonos did invent multi room audio, and if the patent is valid. Sonos are in the process of suing Lenbrook (owners of the Bluesound brand) for patent infringement. As part of their defence, Lenbrook are showing that multiroom synchronisation was demonstrated in the Barix Extreamer  product in 2002/3, attended on at least one occasion by a Sonos representative. There’s quite a good summary of the case as of October here - https://www.strata-gee.com/giving-no-ground-lenbrook-launches-robust-retaliation-to-sonos-lawsuit/

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

Can someone whose been around here for a while compare this to when Sonos EOL their controllers? Sounded like they pissed off a lot of loyal customers when they did that, but just rode it out and the newer customers don’t even know what happened. Is that what’s going to happen here?

 

I have always felt there were two reasons the sonos controller was EOL particularly the cr200. I had 4 of these each one was replaced 3 times so in all I went brought 16 of them. All had the same issue the dead screen issue this resulted in dead areas on the touch screen. This really occurred in the early days of smart phones and I guess sonos took the decision to scrap the controller and let users use there tablets and smart phones. Eventually sonos agreed to take back my controllers as I wasn't prepared anymore for a Hesse screen fails. But this is very identical to the current situation where features on the cr200 where removed as updates went on. But sonos are not prepared to do the same for legacy productions where new features would not be added.

I
Userlevel 1

Too many users are finding this response to be inadequate, Sonos is trying to move on, but thousands and thousands of customers don’t trust the brand… if your one of them, sign the petition on Change.org.

H
Userlevel 6
Badge +3

Sonos speakers are not just speakers. They are essentially computers, and computers that need to constantly communicate with each other.

That’s a thing that computers all do, John. For reference please see the Internet. 
 

 

 

Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree.

Ok, explain why. Produce one logical argument why a play 5 is going to lose the ability to be grouped with a play 1, especially given that Sonos control the protocol in use. 

Well, they will be able to if they stay on tbe same software. And we don't know for sure what the final outcome will be on legacy vs modern. But let's assume it won't be possible.

Sonos is an integrated system that has always relied on common software. Geouped speakers need to be able to perform identical tasks. Either speaker has to be able to act as 'group co-ordinator', running the show for the group.

Now, I find it entirely plausible that the more the system has to do, the more likely it is that a player with a paltry 32MB of memory cannot keep up. That seems far more likely than the cynical view on here that Sonos are making all this up and are just profiteering. You are free to believe otherwise.

 

I don't think the majority of Sonos users want the system to do anything ‘more’, they just want it to play music like it did when we invested, so, your theory is not relevant.

I suspect you are being a Troll.

I
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

Someone, in Sonos, please send an update of what approaches are being taken/ explored.

We may accept that ultimately some initiatives will not bear fruit, but it would certainly take some of the heat out of here if we knew what is, is possibly and is definitely not being explored.  Three or four months of speculation will bring Sonos and users down.

R
Userlevel 1

Honestly I've gone from being an avid Sonos convert to the opposite. I would rather rather Sonos go out of business and lose my functionality than give them another penny of my money.

Just the tone and attitude of the CEO is enough to make my blood boil. I'll print out the next email he sends and use it as toilet paper.

W
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

Solution for Sonos easy!

And I'm probably repeating myself over and over but I don't care. This thread will be skimmed read I'm sure.

1 Make it work so that modern speakers can update when a Legacy speaker is within the set up. Doesn't matter that legacy can no longer receive updates, we get that. As long as they do their original intended job whilst everything modern gets updates that fine. The Sonos community will naturally look for the latest and greatest anyway, but in our own time.

2 Payback all the trade up people by letting them keep their legacy units that are set for being bricked or already bricked. Anybody who actually knows about trade up is probably a Sonos fan anyway! In my instance I would set the legacy unit up somewhere new and eventually buy the next new thing from you to replace it within 12 months anyway.

Plus you can guarantee that bricked units will go out in the used market and people will get conned by untrustworthy sellers. Result more bad press for Sonos.

You need to understand this Sonos. Theres a lot of disgruntled Sonos enthusiasts here, many promoting your company on a daily basis.

For me if you carried my 2 points raised I'd be delighted and glad to say fair play Sonos as I'm sure many others would and back you all the way going forward.

S

Why? WHY? Why?

 

This is all about two companies at commercial war, the bullets are....

 

BUFFERING!

 

Were caught in a crossfire comrades and were cannon fodder

 

Good luck but I think I’ll be surrendering my recently bought Sonos 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

F
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Sonos speakers are not just speakers. They are essentially computers, and computers that need to constantly communicate with each other.

That’s a thing that computers all do, John. For reference please see the Internet. 
 

 

 

Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree.

Ok, explain why. Produce one logical argument why a play 5 is going to lose the ability to be grouped with a play 1, especially given that Sonos control the protocol in use. 

Well, they will be able to if they stay on tbe same software. And we don't know for sure what the final outcome will be on legacy vs modern. But let's assume it won't be possible.

Sonos is an integrated system that has always relied on common software. Geouped speakers need to be able to perform identical tasks. Either speaker has to be able to act as 'group co-ordinator', running the show for the group.

Now, I find it entirely plausible that the more the system has to do, the more likely it is that a player with a paltry 32MB of memory cannot keep up. That seems far more likely than the cynical view on here that Sonos are making all this up and are just profiteering. You are free to believe otherwise.

 

I don't think the majority of Sonos users want the system to do anything ‘more’, they just want it to play music like it did when we invested, so, your theory is not relevant.

I suspect you are being a troll.

Trolling or not, his opinion is extremely flippant offensive to people whom have spent loads of money over many years on Sonos speakers.

Only  to find now through no fault of there own , there investment is potentially null & void & not going to do what they paid for it to do anymore.

To infer people on this forum are somehow stupid & ignorant for not realising that they we’re going to get taken for a ta ta by Sonos..   shows you’re arrogance & insensitivity.

Most people don’t have the money to fork out thousands of pounds to replace speakers every few years.

The impact of Sonos’s statement evidently isn’t going to impact on you, so please try to get over yourself.

D
Userlevel 2

We are almost at 100,000 views! Let's go for 200,000! 

S
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

I’m guessing that this has been asked before, but I couldn’t find it, so forgive any duplication. I have just bought a Playbase (still being sold) and have grouped it with 2 x Play 1 (no longersold) - I love this configuration and the way it sounds.

 

However, I expect Play 1 will be declared legacy some time before the Playbase - if this were to happen then potentially I would not be able to continue using the Playbase in this way. I bought it because I knew it could be used with the Play 1 pair to provide a surround sound experience - if this is not going to be possible in the future then I’m tempted to send the Playbase back.

 

i suppose the point is that certain combinations of units are very common and Sonos need to think about this. Thoughts?

M
Userlevel 1

The more I think about this and adding to this the loss of Amazon Alexa to control rooms and the loss of being able to play Apple tracks on my phone and pad; I have made the decision not to consider SONOS for any future speaker purchases.

W
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

Copy and paste this if you think it's an acceptable solution

1 Make it work so that modern speakers can update when a Legacy speaker is within the set up. Doesn't matter that legacy can no longer receive updates, we get that. As long as they do their original intended job whilst everything modern gets updates that fine. The Sonos community will naturally look for the latest and greatest anyway, but in our own time.

2 Payback all the trade up people by letting them keep their legacy units that are set for being bricked or already bricked. Anybody who actually knows about trade up is probably a Sonos supporter anyway. Legacy units will more than likely stay within a setup and eventually replaced with a new Sonos product anyway.

 

S
Userlevel 5
Badge +3

I’m guessing that this has been asked before, but I couldn’t find it, so forgive any duplication. I have just bought a Playbase (still being sold) and have grouped it with 2 x Play 1 (no longersold) - I love this configuration and the way it sounds.

 

However, I expect Play 1 will be declared legacy some time before the Playbase - if this were to happen then potentially I would not be able to continue using the Playbase in this way. I bought it because I knew it could be used with the Play 1 pair to provide a surround sound experience - if this is not going to be possible in the future then I’m tempted to send the Playbase back.

 

i suppose the point is that certain combinations of units are very common and Sonos need to think about this. Thoughts?


nobody knows for certain at the moment by the looks of it, my view is that it would continue to work as is but you may lose any updates that the playbase would otherwise receive however your current experience would remain the same. I’ve a similar setup play 1s with a beam and sub and for me at least as long as it continues as is I’m not worried about the latest greatest updates so I’m sticking with what I have. It did however mean that the soundbar I bought on Friday for another room instead of recreating this setup I bought a Yamaha because I won’t be spending anymore money with Sonos unless they do something exceptional to make up for this debacle, even then I’m still doubtful I would. 

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

Greetings, All (though SONOS probably won’t read this; they’ll all be lying down in darkened rooms or revising their CVs).

Having followed this for a few days of days (has it only been that long?), here are my (final) thoughts. 

I’ve been researching and collating quite a lot recently and this is the repository of my current impressions.  I’ll be posting it in both https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969 and https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-a-pragmatic-way-past-it-6836056 .  Apologies if this is long; it’s become complex; but is definitely no rant, just my personal views.

The CEO’s email does nothing to allay my own fears going forward.  I have legacy and ‘modern’ (for now) dumb, (not voice) audio devices within ear-shot of each other.  My only route is to keep my system locked in its present form as they confirm that legacy and modern system areas cannot be grouped in synchrony https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/will-i-still-be-able-to-group-new-and-old-products-together-and-receive-updates-on-newer-products-6836043 .  I suspect this is a consequence of the decision that SONOS made in its infancy to have distributed rather than centralized intelligence using a Precision Time Protocol (probably IEEE 1588-2002).  This is worth a read: https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/how-it-started but I expect it’s had consequences as soon as the design philosophy was set; the 65k limit for example and the inability to use anything other than PCM stereo.  SONOS architecture was set with “Any Song. Any Room.”  Frankly anything else has always been a stretch and I suspect this distributed intelligence would preclude the much vaulted request to have a central memory hub handling legacy devices.

SONOS’ recent decision over legacy devices may eventually open up lots of new possibilities, which the user community has been asking for on these pages for many years.  These could include bluetooth, and any number of ‘cinema’ enhancements (DTS or Dolby Atmos), but clearly voice seems to be something of a next step after buying Snips (https://investors.sonos.com/news-and-events/investor-news/latest-news/2019/Sonos-Announces-Acquisition-of-Snips/default.aspx).  In order to make use of this it will have to weather its recent storm.  For the time being SONOS is a cash-wealthy company; I think Snips cost $37M and back in September 2019 they announced a $50M stock buy back programme.  They apparently have $298.5M cash (https://thefly.com/landingPageNews.php?id=2957758&headline=SONO-Sonos-approves-M-share-repurchase-program). SONOS has also been bringing to market a lot of new devices and speakers in recent years.  While most of these are just new versions of old, the line-up has expanded with ‘architectural solutions’ (speakers to you and me) and the Move.  I think this has been long overdue and may have tempted new adopters to multi-room ecosystems to plump for SONOS in comparison to any of the increasing number of alternatives, especially for people with outdoor spaces.  The point here is even new versions or old solutions plus the new devices will have been expensive to develop.  I think SONOS has been wise to expand its line-up.

Among technology journalists, the reaction to SONOS’ decision over legacy devices has been a bit of a shrug, in my opinion.  Lots of “Well, what do you expect from tech?”, “SONOS has been brave in coming clean over this” and “This is probably the first, but not the last time we hear of this”.  In contrast, the user community has been livid.  Within a few hours of the announcement the first forum (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products-6835470) had 1378 replies, 53464 views and reached 56 pages before being closed down for reasons that I cannot fathom, except SONOS didn’t like what they were hearing.  The later one (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969) now stands at roughly 2250 replies, 97,882 views and ~103 pages and counting.  Almost entirely universally the comments are highly critical and damning of the recent decision.  They accuse SONOS of being arrogant and the announcement hastily announced, crude in nature and a slap in the face to those who have spent the most over the longest period and who have probably been the most evangelical about the brand for the longest time to friends and family. 

This loss of trust that very many now feel is precisely because most brand or ecosystem adopters don't (can’t) rush out and fill a house with devices; instead they build systems over many years as needs evolve and funds allow and when an announcement of this magnitude drops into the inbox of the most loyal customers then the consequence is the fury that was unleashed.  While SONOS did hint at this in their Annual Report (https://s22.q4cdn.com/672173472/files/doc_financials/2019/q4/52d86c5b-248f-4939-aa85-1489c1828e7f.pdf#page=17) and they spell out very many risk factors that the company faces; these are both external and internal to the company itself and some are as a result of being a relatively small and niche technology entity where the sector is changing rapidly and dominated by some extremely powerful competitors.  Many of these registered risks are probably familiar to business students through to company Directors however, a most relevant risk here it that: “We may choose to discontinue support for older versions of our products, resulting in customer dissatisfaction that could negatively affect our business and operating results.”  I wonder when the Board was signing off this Report whether they really understood the potential for this risk to bite and whether they have accurately modelled it for financial and reputational impact.  Only they know but, I imagine they have been completely blind-sided by the response.  The evidence is here: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.sonos.com, with 80% ‘Bad’ reviews out of 910 posted and a TrustScore of 1.3 out of 5.  This is just about as low as it’s possible to get since the lowest post is 1; secondly, that this community topic (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969) and the previously closed one (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products-6835470) are those with the biggest number of replies, by far.  Thirdly, their share price has taken a hit (down ~2%, https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/sono), but this will take some time to work through.  SONOS are expected to post revenue of between $1.365B and $1.4B, roughly 9.5% annual growth (https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/05/why-sonos-stock-climbed-128-in-december.aspx) though it will be interesting to know more when they announce their most recent financial results and host a Q&A (https://investors.sonos.com/news-and-events/investor-news/latest-news/2020/Sonos-Announces-Date-for-First-Quarter-2020-Financial-Results-and-Conference-Call/default.aspx).  Lastly, though the journalists are a bit ‘shruggy’ the rest of the web is not. A quick online search reveals all you need to know.

Sadly I think SONOS’ philosophy has been crumbling for quite a while.  Recent and not so recent updates that offer system improvements have often resulted in the opposite in my opinion.  Here are several examples:

1    Upcoming changes to ‘On this iPhone or iPad’ Playback (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/upcoming-changes-to-on-this-iphone-or-ipad-playback-6826585) is the third most replied to forum topic and describes the loss of a feature.

2    Updates to the Desktop Controller Coming Soon (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/updates-to-the-desktop-controller-coming-soon-6813300) is the fourth most replied to form topic and begins with a long-requested visual update, but most people preferred the blue version it seems.  Importantly though this ‘refresh’ removed:

  • Setting up or transferring a system
  • Adding a player to existing system
  • The ability to bond/unbond players (surrounds, stereo pairs, or adding a Sub).
  • Registering players
  • TV setup for Beam, Playbase, and Playbar,
  • Enabling parental controls
  • Network settings and management
  • Line-in settings
  • Renaming a Room
  • Opting in or out of a beta program
  • Resetting your Sonos account password (you can still do so on a computer via sonos.com)

This turned out to be an attack on many fronts.  Importantly, it requires users to have up to date tablets or phones to do the management of the system, whereas it used to be possible to manage the entirety of the system with the desktop application and allowed older devices to still be used as everyday controllers.  SONOS’ decision here is decidedly anti-ethical and a non-sustainability practise and seemingly against their Responsibility pledge for wider Product Design and Supply Chain (https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/sustainability), but SONOS have never really opened up about this.  Importantly it also prevents users, or installers maintaining systems using Remote Desktop applications, which was nuts.

3    Android Devices no longer able to join SonosNet (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/android-devices-no-longer-able-to-join-sonosnet-6825471).  I asked SONOS help about this and their response was two-fold.  Firstly removing the feature, which was little used, apparently (though looking through support revealed a solid fan base) would free up device memory for other purposes.  Also, SONOS sort-of feared it might be related to electronic interference between the network and amplification circuitry.  These are my words but I did have a P5s replaced under warranty for issues around electronic interference, which SONOS said they could not replicate.  At the time it was a fantastic managed-AP though, well if you used Android.

The sad thing is that SONOS seemingly are very closed about their decision making any have never allowed user options.  The system is locked and updates irreversible.  Technically I don’t quite buy this since it is possible to reverse a beta upgrade, so it must be theoretically possible to wind the firmware back.  If I could, I’d probably like to revert to something around the 6.x or 7.x era and if I could fix the volume down ramp I would.

It’s not all doom and gloom as SONOS have introduced a few new features, most recently Amazon music HD though there is confusion about whether it really is HD if it’s called for by Alexa and the company are promising a fix.  Also, the loss then reinstatement of Audible, where the fix took quite a while to be sorted.  And this is the crux of issues into the future.  SONOS has been quite good about telling customers in advance when third party integrations will stop working and have a desire to maintain this, but if you have a legacy device in your system this will stop though when the third party company changes its protocols you will lose functionality and I imagine there won’t be a fix for this. 

Another driver for UK (and VPN) users could be related to the fact that the BBC is due to release a significant update for BBC SOUNDS in 2020 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/supported-devices/connected-tv) albeit for smart TVs.  It might just be the case that this also brings the on-demand features of BBC SOUNDS to SONOS and other aggregators and streamers, but presumably not if your system is legacy.  The on-demand content of BBC Radio, music and podcasts now through SOUNDS has been a perennial request to SONOS across many request forums.  By the way if you listen to BBC Radio on your SONOS then look at this: http://steveseear.org/high-quality-bbc-radio-streams/ for advice.  While there’s less meta-data available I find these streams more reliable than from the aggregators.  I used to use minimserver (https://minimserver.com/) to handle this, but now access the BBC streams directly.

Final issues: ~7W on ‘standby’ isn’t really acceptable anymore.  It might have been fine when lightbulbs were 60-100W but we can now light a house for the electrical cost of SONOS on standby, but this isn’t a rant!

So where does this leave us all?  SONOS are definitely in a flat spin about all this, or should be.  It’s highly unusual for the CEO to apologise about the way they handled a situation, but they are seemingly staying firm.  As mentioned above if I cannot group modern and legacy then all my system will remain legacy and I’ll probably ditch SONOS, which will be a pity.  A lot will depend on the situation between now and May and also what happens to the company and its customer relations and financial (sales) situation.  At worst I may keep some small areas of SONOS but expect something else to largely take over and the system to be relegated.  I bought into “The smart home sound system.” And SONOS’ “Our DNA – The connected home.” (https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/our-company)  This has to be one system, not two and trading up with a 30% discount when prices were recently raised makes me look the fool.  What this exactly means will depend on imagined future habits and where the software and hardware platforms go, plus what happens to various streaming services.  I don’t think it’ll be BOSE, more likely Yamaha for their integrated amp setup, plus standalone speakers, or something bespoke.  There world is moving very fast!  Will see…, but I will be extremely hesitant and cautious about recommending the SONOS platform to anyone in the future.  The brand has sadly lost my trust, but I understand that everyone is free to make their own decisions. 

Anyway, I hope this post might help you be better informed so you can make your choices.

Cheers, All and well done for reading this far.  Remember, it is only stuff!

I think the share prices when the markets open up are going to make a lot of their decisions for them as for their existing customer base well, over 3000 replies on this thread and over 100000 views, I think most are set to walk away

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