End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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T
Userlevel 3
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Oopphh, Sonos!!! I’m techy but not an engineer. Soooo pissed that this serves as public disclosure.

Build and sell $25 module that bridges Legacy and Modern. Use speaker ethernet port to talk to module. Module is upgradeable, handles WiFi, making Legacy speakers/hardware dumber.

Honor customers, preserve their investment and your company. Somebody other than Sonos will do this if you don’t first.

J
Userlevel 2
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Yes, equipment gets old. When the CR100 retired it was clear it was time to go. The CR200, well those turned into a POS and I retired them. Not many complaints there as the company moved on. The issue here is that while product do expire, the large number of products Sonos is sunsetting at one time puts immense pressure on those of us having large systems. It is as if 75% of my system will not operate the same after May. Yes, they will still power on, but not group, likely require two controlling apps with multiple systems/environments, imminent loss of access to streaming services, etc...

There is more success with guiding folks down a path rather than force - Walk with them don’t shove.

P
Userlevel 5
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Sonos speakers are not just speakers. They are essentially computers, and computers that need to constantly communicate with each other.

That’s a thing that computers all do, John. For reference please see the Internet. 
 

 

 

Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree.

Ok, explain why. Produce one logical argument why a play 5 is going to lose the ability to be grouped with a play 1, especially given that Sonos control the protocol in use. 

Well, they will be able to if they stay on tbe same software. And we don't know for sure what the final outcome will be on legacy vs modern. But let's assume it won't be possible.

Sonos is an integrated system that has always relied on common software. Geouped speakers need to be able to perform identical tasks. Either speaker has to be able to act as 'group co-ordinator', running the show for the group.

Now, I find it entirely plausible that the more the system has to do, the more likely it is that a player with a paltry 32MB of memory cannot keep up. That seems far more likely than the cynical view on here that Sonos are making all this up and are just profiteering. You are free to believe otherwise.

 

Why should the system have to do more? I think 99% of the contributors to this discussion just want it to carry on doing the same. And grouped speakers don’t need to be able to perform identical tasks. Why shouldn’t I be able to group a speaker which takes voice commands (not that I actually care about having that facility, but that’s another matter) with one that doesn’t?

And PS to previous - obviously we can currently group speakers which don’t perform identical tasks!

W
Userlevel 4
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They've since backtracked and stated that they will look for a work through. So there must be a way of doing this.

The problem lies with the fact that we've been mislead and some have gone for their half hearted promotion.

Get as Technical as you want defending the issue but the way for Sonos to rectify this mess is simple.

1 find a way for modern units to update along side legacy units 

2 stop the brick count down and let people who have traded keep their legacy units to keep until natural end 

Simple, Sorted !

J

The system needs to do what it has to do. We all have features we want and don't want.  This really isn't about evidence. It seems overwhelmingly likely to me that this is about technical limitations.  That a certain amount of conmon capability is needed.  To others it looks like a money grab. Although in the same breath they say Sonos are committing commercial suicide. 

So believe what you like.

Y

Sonos speakers are not just speakers. They are essentially computers, and computers that need to constantly communicate with each other.

That’s a thing that computers all do, John. For reference please see the Internet. 
 

 

 

Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree.

Ok, explain why. Produce one logical argument why a play 5 is going to lose the ability to be grouped with a play 1, especially given that Sonos control the protocol in use. 

Of course there is absolutely no technical reason why ‘legacy’ sonos gear cannot continue operating alongside newer generation speakers. 25 years may even be feasible excluding a big shift in home wifi technology. The way Airplay 2 is accommodated is a case of how this can be achieved. The basic functionality of synced multiroom audio is very well served by existing legacy hardware. Any new service that cannot be accommodated by older hardware can be dealt with potentially in the same way as Airplay 2 with no need to split the systems. Purchase a new gen speaker which supports new services and then acts as a gateway for synced audio to the rest of the system. As a very last resort, new services can be shown as operational for new gen units only. There is no technical imperative to split the systems and there is nothing that prevents the ‘legacy’ units from lasting A LOT longer than 10 years.

 

Now, one may argue that the above would not be a viable business for sonos and that is an important restriction that has nothing to do with the engineering / technical side of things. Being able to offer a technical solution that ensures longevity for 25 years may mean that sonos cannot financially survive with the present business model. Different issue albeit important. 

R
Userlevel 4
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Sonos speakers are not just speakers. They are essentially computers, and computers that need to constantly communicate with each other. Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree. And therefore consistent with much of the outrage on the ridiculous thread.

One bites ones tonge

Can’t bite mine!  Many like me have huge investment (22 players across four houses, a mix of legacy snd modern).  The Sonos sales pitch was the experience would only grow and get better over time with software updates.  No one on here expects old units to handle some of the new features (eg as was the case with Airplay2; voice control) which may be coming (DTS? high-res? etc) but we DO expect continued functionality, including whole home grouping, at the levels previously enjoyed.

Which is why I wished they’d announced this the other way round - say there is a new Sonos OS coming that can handle high res or whatever and to move your whole system over to that you need all post 2015 components or to split your system, but otherwise things largely stay exactly as they are now.

T
Badge +2

Really upset! Even after the rectification message from the CEO.

 

Not investing into any new Sonos products until this is properly addressed & clarified. This is not a 1000$ investment (like a IPad or iPhone) Not a positive message. 

I will keeping a good eye on this tread.

 

Don’t get intimidated!

R
Userlevel 4
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The problem now is no one trusts Sonos, or its PR spin on its own announcement, or the lame ‘apology’ about ditching support for their original and best customers. 

F

Finn1000

 just now

Agreed, trust is a huge problem now for Sonos customers new & old.
whether you’re running a linked system with legacy/new or running speakers separately... the issue of trust & continued support( updating) is a huge issue for customers.
Its up to Sonos how they square it.
I dread to think what will happen if Sonos ignore & plough on!

Speakers are not mobile phones or TV’s .

People expect £250- £500 speakers should have a 15-25 year life span or last until the speaker fails.

Never  heard such nonsense of high end speakers being disposable.. its obscene 

 

 

Wait, when did TVs become disposable? I had my last TV longer than any of my Sonos units to date and my current one cost more than any of my speakers and I hope it outlives them. 

U
Userlevel 6
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Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree.

Ok, explain why. Produce one logical argument why a play 5 is going to lose the ability to be grouped with a play 1, especially given that Sonos control the protocol in use. 

Well, they will be able to if they stay on tbe same software. And we don't know for sure what the final outcome will be on legacy vs modern. But let's assume it won't be possible.

Sonos is an integrated system that has always relied on common software. Geouped speakers need to be able to perform identical tasks. Either speaker has to be able to act as 'group co-ordinator', running the show for the group.

Now, I find it entirely plausible that the more the system has to do, the more likely it is that a player with a paltry 32MB of memory cannot keep up. That seems far more likely than the cynical view on here that Sonos are making all this up and are just profiteering. You are free to believe otherwise.

 

Wow. Where to start. 
No belief or faith is required if you have an understanding of technology; different devices of different capability working together is the entire essence of computer networking. They don’t need to be running the same software, they just need to speak the same protocol. As one example, the protocol that moves email around the Internet, SMTP, was ratified in 1982. It’s been extended many times to add many capabilities to it but (and this is no exaggeration) you could take an SMTP mail client written in 1982 and it could send an email over today’s internet.
You want a less extreme example - Skype. You can send a real time audio/video stream between two a massive beefy Windows PC and a (comparatively tiny) android phone running completely different software and it works fine.

There’s even precedent for this within the current Sonos portfolio - you can group an airplay capable device with a non airplay device and they work together fine.

So let’s be very clear this is absolutely possible on a technical level. When Sonos implies it isn’t they. are. lying. What they mean is, for business/commercial reasons, they don’t want to facilitate that happening. They’re screwing us for profit. 

W
Userlevel 4
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Monday is the start of the working week 

Whoever manages this forum within the website needs to be putting something together to report back to the directors of Sonos.

If Sonos actually cared I'd expect some sort of further acknowledgement on this thread by close of play Monday 

It's not going to go away and could result in a massive fallout of loosing enthusiastic committed Sonos fans 

D
Userlevel 3
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Can you please email that to Patrick Spence Sonos CEO?

D
Userlevel 3
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Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree.

Ok, explain why. Produce one logical argument why a play 5 is going to lose the ability to be grouped with a play 1, especially given that Sonos control the protocol in use. 

Well, they will be able to if they stay on tbe same software. And we don't know for sure what the final outcome will be on legacy vs modern. But let's assume it won't be possible.

Sonos is an integrated system that has always relied on common software. Geouped speakers need to be able to perform identical tasks. Either speaker has to be able to act as 'group co-ordinator', running the show for the group.

Now, I find it entirely plausible that the more the system has to do, the more likely it is that a player with a paltry 32MB of memory cannot keep up. That seems far more likely than the cynical view on here that Sonos are making all this up and are just profiteering. You are free to believe otherwise.

 

Wow. Where to start. 
No belief or faith is required if you have an understanding of technology; different devices of different capability working together is the entire essence of computer networking. They don’t need to be running the same software, they just need to speak the same protocol. As one example, the protocol that moves email around the Internet, SMTP, was ratified in 1982. It’s been extended many times to add many capabilities to it but (and this is no exaggeration) you could take an SMTP mail client written in 1982 and it could send an email over today’s internet.
You want a less extreme example - Skype. You can send a real time audio/video stream between two a massive beefy Windows PC and a (comparatively tiny) android phone running completely different software and it works fine.

There’s even precedent for this within the current Sonos portfolio - you can group an airplay capable device with a non airplay device and they work together fine.

So let’s be very clear this is absolutely possible on a technical level. When Sonos implies it isn’t they. are. lying. What they mean is, for business/commercial reasons, they don’t want to facilitate that happening. They’re screwing us for profit. 

Sorry - Can you please email that to Patrick Spence Sonos CEO?

 

C
Userlevel 4
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There’s also Yamaha MusicCast, but it offers limited options and its future in the market seems questionable with no foothold. Then there’s Play-Fi, which looks promising but still fledgling with no strong partners. B&O looks really cool, but I can’t see the value at those prices.

Curious where you got market share data, as I’m about to go with MusicCast and Yamaha sells a lot more audio equipment than Denon. Please share your information because a Google search showed nothing. Thanks.

A

So let’s be very clear this is absolutely possible on a technical level. When Sonos implies it isn’t they. are. lying. What they mean is, for business/commercial reasons, they don’t want to facilitate that happening. They’re screwing us for profit. 

Spot on…. It’s perfectly feasible to do it, they just don’t want to spend the money….

They’ve clearly decided that it’s cheaper to lose 5 or 10 (or more) thousand old customers than to redesign their system. Whether they’re right or not, only time will tell….

J

It's good to know that there are so many people who understand multiroom audio better than its inventors and patent holders.  

Oh of course I forgot. Sonos are being totally dishonest about this. Or is it just that they are stupid.  I forget.

The reaction to my post is entirely what I  expected. 

P
Userlevel 5
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It's good to know that there are so many people who understand multiroom audio better than its inventors and patent holders.  

Oh of course I forgot. Sonos are being totally dishonest about this. Or is it just that they are stupid.  I forget.

The reaction to my post is entirely what I  expected. 

John

If you can provide a cogent reason why Sonos cannot support the current functionality of all components indefinitely, then that would be helpful. However, most people seem to believe that it is either an out and out money grab or it is a consequence of bloating systems with functions that few users want. 

C
Userlevel 4
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Even giving SONOS the benefit of the doubt and not assuming a cynical motive for this forced upgrade, the very design of their products was dreadful from an upgrade standpoint.  I bought a smart tv for over a $1,000 seven years ago which can’t be used for Netflix and could never be used with Amazon Prime, but a $35 FireStick solves the problem connected to an HDMI input.

Why in the world didn’t they (and still don’t) put in a USB input for just such an upgrade path in the future, rather than bricking a $650 AMP five years from now?

A

Sonos is nothing without the loyal following of all of us … 

Well I’m so, so glad you all spoke up and voiced your concerns and that this appears to have had an impact, even if the full extent of that remains to be seen. I too had and still have concerns but until now have not voiced them - I guess that’s indicative of how little confidence I have that my concerns (and everyone else’s) will make a difference.

I bought into Sonos a long, long time ago, when they only had offices in the USA and over here in the UK no one had even heard of them; in fact most people either wasn’t aware that it was even possible to have a multi-room music system, or if they had it was just so, so expensive it was only a pipe dream. I even had to talk my local Hi-Fi dealer into setting up a trading account with Sonos so that I could order thousands of £ of gear to kit out my entire house in one go! This included the beautiful and functional Sonos Controller units, in fact several of them so I could control my system from various places within my house - much to the sheer astonishment and delight of my friends when they first saw it, before exclaiming “Wow! That’s incredible. I’ve absolutely must get one of those. What’s it called again? Sono …?"

Ive lost count of the number of those friends who bought into Sonos, or their friends, and friends of friends … (you get the point). I even forgave Sonos when they made my many Sonos Controllers obsolete, despite having bought a load of lithium batteries to replace the ones that kept wearing out, but what REALLY pissed me off was that I didn’t feel as though I’d had any choice, nor been given enough information or advance notice of that happening (we all lead busy lives right?)

I was also pissed off when, now having to rely on iPhones and iPads to replace my Sonos Controllers  that they suddenly made older versions of iOS incompatible too - sure they can’t keep bringing out newer versions of the Sonos App that support every version of iOS, but why couldn’t I just keep devices running old versions of the App too, why didn’t the system update come with a BIG WARNING that you were about to screw everything up, and yet again why wasn’t there better communication about this change in advance? Mmmm, it was beginning to look like this was the way Sonos went about things from now on - Now that they were a Global, very successful company with millions and millions of customers.

This irritation was further emphasised when I discovered that in fact it WAS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE to keep an older, different version of a controller running in tandem with my updated system, contrary to what Sonos told everyone - it was called SonoPad, a third party controller app produced by a one man band for very little cost, and it still works to this day, despite the very many, many system updates since then! So why would Sonos claim this was not possible? If a little third party developer could do it, why couldn’t I just stick with the old controller app on some of my devices and still have everything else work on different versions?

Sadly, it’s the same old story time after time; bright new innovative company comes along with great ideas but needs customers to believe in them in order to grow and survive. Company gets what it wants and becomes so big and successful that, some where along the line, it forgets what and who made it that successful in the first place and how to go about running their business in the way that made it so attractive to all those customers who made it what it is today. Communication, or the lack of adequate, thoughtful and appropriately timed communication both with its customers, and often within their now behemoth sized organisation, is always at the root of this. 

Trust is hard to win, easy to keep, but so very, very difficult to get back when you break it. I do so hope that Sonos learns from this and goes on to be different to every other big company out there. Even giants like Apple haven’t managed this, but at least Sonos is nowhere near that big and so has a fighting chance of leading by example.
 

Fingers crossed (rant over)

 

Good summary, but you left out the one that alerted me to what Sonos was capable of. This is when Sonos demanded its’ customers register their products or they would not receive any further updates. I didn’t have to register my products when I first bought Sonos, and every time I updated my system I was given “the option” of registering. I chose not to register because I didn’t want to give Sonos my information. And then all of a sudden Sonos makes it mandatory to register products. I held out for as long as I could but it was getting to the point where I could no longer operate my system. Sonos was holding my complete system for ransom. So I was forced to register. But this alerted me to what Sonos was capable of and at that time I made up my mind not to purchase any further Sonos products.

 

So fortunately for me, I only have two Play 5’s and one Connect. I’m already using Apple Airplay instead of the Connect and I actually like it better. At least it will play my .m4a files, which Sonos will not. As for my Play 5’s, I’ll keep them for now. I really only use them as auxiliary speakers which I find good for being able to move around the house (use on the patio, etc.). In the not too distant future I will most likely replace them with something that is compatible with Airplay.

G
Userlevel 2

   I bought my 5th Connect from BestBuy less than 2 weeks ago. After checking with Sonos I found that it is not a "current" product and support will end in a few months. Of my 5 Connects only the one from about a year ago is. And of course my first gen Play 5 will not be supported. 

   I think like most Sonos owners I was a loud proponent of them. Yeah, a little pricey, yeah lots of alternatives (and outright copies) but the interface and the software was great. The support was great too. I loved showing people how slick Sonos was in the home. I talked more than one person into being Sonosfied.

   Sonos is like popcorn too. You can't stop with 1 (or 2, or 3...). Having moved homes recently one of the first things on the todo list is add more Zones. I was looking at a Beam and a Playbar. And of course more Connects. Maybe an Amp or two. 

   Right now I'm waiting to see if Sonos decides to keep supporting their base (the very loyal base that made them what they are) or if they'll chase some kind of quarter to quarter profit scheme that leaves us looking for a different solution. 

   Locked threads and brush off apologies are not making me hopeful.

B
Userlevel 3
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It's good to know that there are so many people who understand multiroom audio better than its inventors and patent holders.  

Oh of course I forgot. Sonos are being totally dishonest about this. Or is it just that they are stupid.  I forget.

The reaction to my post is entirely what I  expected. 

Do you work for Sonos? Or are you actually Patrick Spence?

P
Userlevel 5
Badge +2

It's good to know that there are so many people who understand multiroom audio better than its inventors and patent holders.  

Oh of course I forgot. Sonos are being totally dishonest about this. Or is it just that they are stupid.  I forget.

The reaction to my post is entirely what I  expected. 

John,

I don’t think anybody ever said they understood multiroom audio better than Sonos but I do believe we understand what they have said, and still say on their website:

https://www.sonos.com/en-ca/listen-your-way

Create your perfect sound system.

Everything works together, and Sonos works with all your favourite services so you can listen to what you want, where you want, how you want.

Customize your system

Start with one speaker and easily add more later. Stereo pair speakers in the same room for bolder, richer sound. Connect Sub to Playbar, Playbase, or Beam for deeper bass, then add a pair of rear surrounds for immersive surround sound. Hook up your turntable to Play:5 (doesn’t specify Gen 2) or Amp to stream vinyl all around your home.

Listen in any room

All Sonos speakers and components connect over WiFi so you can build the system you want. Put on a podcast in the bedroom while someone else watches TV in the living room, or group all your speakers to play music in sync.

 

You seem to want us to trust what Sonos is saying but I can’t reconcile the different positions they are simultaneously taking. Please tell me how their present above statements are still true in the mixed environment they are proposing? How will I be able to “easily add more later” and “group all your speakers” if I have even a single legacy component?

D

Following the email regarding recycling, I went onto my account on my mobile phone and my SONOS controllers were all up for recycling.

Given I was unsure how recycling worked I clicked on all 4 controllers and hit the recycle button expecting to see more info around next steps.

I did this because the T&C’s clearly stat recycling must be confirmed in the app so there was little danger in seeing how the process worked.

To my surprise all 4 controllers were immediately put in recycle mode!

I can’t have the controllers bricked in 21 days as as my children use them daily given they are too young to have phones. If I lose the controllers they will not be able to use the products, of which I have all over the house.

To try and rectify this, I sent an email to SONOS support Case #: 01477031, no reply

I used the chat facility twice and was told to call the support number.

I called the support number and was told the website kicks off the recycling immediately for the controllers, and they will stop working in 21 days!

I explained this is clearly against the T&C’s, and you can not just kill my 4 controllers when I have paid £100’s for them and use them daily. They said this would be escalated Case #: 01493858, but I’ve not heard anything over the weekend.

Could someone from SONOS please help me resolve this please. I feeling pretty desperate, I simply need the recycling status removed from the controllers, but it feels no one from SONOS really cares.

M
Userlevel 4
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The system needs to do what it has to do. We all have features we want and don't want.  This really isn't about evidence. It seems overwhelmingly likely to me that this is about technical limitations.  That a certain amount of conmon capability is needed.  To others it looks like a money grab. Although in the same breath they say Sonos are committing commercial suicide. 

So believe what you like.


We will know more in May. I dont expect the old speakers to stream flac, do hd transcoding, or a number of other features i would like to see. all any of us expect is that they keep doing what they do now: multi room, whole house audio, from local and online sources. when i got my first playbar i was disappointed to learn i couldnt use gen1 play 5s for rears, but i understood why. the playbar acts as a 5ghz access point to control the other speakers in a 5.1 setup and old speakers dont have a 5ghz radio. what made it acceptable is that the gen1 5s still do what i bought them to do: streaming sonos/sirius and local mp3s.

i am 90% certain that whatever comes in may, it wont change customer sentiment a bit. the reason this looks like a money grab, is because it is reasonable to see how sonos is a victim of their own success. our homes have all the sonos we could ever need and there is nothing left to buy.

F
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Sonos speakers are not just speakers. They are essentially computers, and computers that need to constantly communicate with each other. Asking for  a 25 year lifetime for a bit of traditional hifi equipment is reasonable.  Asking for it from a multiroom wirelese audio system is stupidity and ignorance of the highest degree. And therefore consistent with much of the outrage on the ridiculous thread.

It’s therefore overpriced & not worth the investment then.

Most people don’t have the money to replace this type of system every 5 years or so .

Stupud a strong word… people have been led a merry dance.

ignorant.. how much money do you have to waste!

 

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