End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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A

 

 

 

There’s someone suing about the  2017 privacy policy change in Europe.  Here’s a link to the article.  The Privacy Policy changes were the same in the US as Europe but… I’m not sure American’s have a right to sue for this type of stuff.  In any event, https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/04/10/sonos_privacy_complaint_ico/

 

 

I am really pleased to see this. I’ve said it on here before, and I’ll say it again. It was this move by Sonos that really showed me what they were capable of. If you didn’t agree to register your products, then you couldn’t get updates and in a very short period of time your system became useless. They were holding us hostage if we didn’t agree to the terms they made up. Terms they made up by the way, after the items were already purchased. So good on whoever is suing them. Best of luck to you.

D
Userlevel 7
Badge +5

If you think about a Symfonisk is more functional than a play 1.. when Sonos brick your Symfonisk in a few years you can at least continue to use it as a shelf. 

Symfonisk is also a bit bigger so it will be easier to rip the “sonos” innards out when Sonos kills it, and replace it with some generic Bluetooth / streaming / amplifier PCB and just reuse the case and actual speaker units.

D
Userlevel 7
Badge +5

If you think about a Symfonisk is more functional than a play 1.. when Sonos brick your Symfonisk in a few years you can at least continue to use it as a shelf. 

Well the Symfonisk have 4 times the RAM and ROM of the Play 1, so i would expect it to last a little longer.

 

Atleast if Sonos is truthful about the reason for scrapping the 5, being that it has too little ram/rom

 

Also the Symfonisk seems to have the same processor as the later version of the Play 1, and this processor has more processing power so should not be obsoleted as fast.

 

But that is all on the asumption that Sonos is NOT scrapping old products to be able to sell new, but rather because of hardware limitations, and this seems highly unlikely now.

C
Userlevel 5
Badge +3

Let's be clear, the reasoning of devices reaching technical limits is just a poor excuse.

Those devices being categorised as legacy need do nothing more than receive an audio stream.

It is ENTIRELY possible for this to be done by having another device in the mesh/network do the processing and pass this stream to a legacy device.

It could be achieved by either the addition of a separate single box in the mesh controlling this, or existing more powerful devices processing the audio for its legacy neighbour/s.

It is exactly the same principal as your wireless headphones with 2mb ram being able to play sound while your phone, ipad whatever does the work of receiving, transcodeing and transmitting the stream.

This move by sonos, coupled with it's new hardware having a "5 year support" line is nothing but a transition toward making sonos a disposable item like a smartphone.

A single smartphone in my pocket may be disposable every 5 years.

A 20 zone multi room music system with a £6000 ($8000) price tag, is NOT a 5 year disposable item for me.

D
Userlevel 7
Badge +5

That was exactly the miscalculation. "Our customers love our products, they love us, they will understand this."

 

They had the first two right. The long term support of older products differentiated them from all the challengers. I didnt trust Bose, heos, any of these to survive the way sonos had. The trust and loyalty is gone, with the single biggest selling point.

I think one of the problems for Sonos is that they looked at Apple, and thought “We are the same”.

 

Apple can get away with some crazy shit towards their costumers and they still buy apple products.

Sonos now knows that there IS actually a line that can be crossed for their costumers and that they are in fact NOT Apple and Sonos users are NOT “sheep” like a lot of apple users, that will take any kind of abuse from apple and still say thank you. :)

D
Userlevel 7
Badge +5

Let's be clear, the reasoning of devices reaching technical limits is just a poor excuse.

Those devices being categorised as legacy need do nothing more than receive an audio stream.

It is ENTIRELY possible for this to be done by having another device in the mesh/network do the processing and pass this stream to a legacy device.

It could be achieved by either the addition of a separate single box in the mesh controlling this, or existing more powerful devices processing the audio for its legacy neighbour/s.

It is exactly the same principal as your wireless headphones with 2mb ram being able to play sound while your phone, ipad whatever does the work of receiving, transcodeing and transmitting the stream.

This move by sonos, coupled with it's new hardware having a "5 year support" line is nothing but a transition toward making sonos a disposable item like a smartphone.

A single smartphone in my pocket may be disposable every 5 years.

A 20 zone multi room music system with a £6000 ($8000) price tag, is NOT a 5 year disposable item for me.


They can even make it so that the speaker itself does this.

They say they do not have anough flash and ram, but right now every speaker runs the same firmware, meaning that a lot of code inside for example the Play 5 is not used for the play 5.

Alexa integration, airplay 2 integration and a whole lot of other stuff.

If they took the latest firmware, trimmed it down to the bare essentials needed for current features, they would probably have loads of space left.

What they need to do is get away from the “every speaker MUST have identical firmware” and begin “Legacy devices has basic firmware that the new firmware versions can talk to, and enable the functions that the legacy device can handle like multiroom streaming and MP3 playback”.

 

I would even think that this approach would give them enough space to be able to update streaming services, if they change the way their stream works….Atleast until such a time, that the actual processor can not keep up, and at that time they would be able to do as you suggest.

They could even make a bit of money if they made a “legacy / Modern” bridge, that facilitatet the connection between new and old. This bridge would contain “plenty of ram/rom/processing power”.

 

But i suspect they would rather “force” you to buy a lot of new speakers instead of one legacy to modern bridge.

N
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

a

Let's be clear, the reasoning of devices reaching technical limits is just a poor excuse.

Those devices being categorised as legacy need do nothing more than receive an audio stream.

It is ENTIRELY possible for this to be done by having another device in the mesh/network do the processing and pass this stream to a legacy device.

It could be achieved by either the addition of a separate single box in the mesh controlling this, or existing more powerful devices processing the audio for its legacy neighbour/s.

It is exactly the same principal as your wireless headphones with 2mb ram being able to play sound while your phone, ipad whatever does the work of receiving, transcodeing and transmitting the stream.

This move by sonos, coupled with it's new hardware having a "5 year support" line is nothing but a transition toward making sonos a disposable item like a smartphone.

A single smartphone in my pocket may be disposable every 5 years.

A 20 zone multi room music system with a £6000 ($8000) price tag, is NOT a 5 year disposable item for me.


They can even make it so that the speaker itself does this.

They say they do not have anough flash and ram, but right now every speaker runs the same firmware, meaning that a lot of code inside for example the Play 5 is not used for the play 5.

Alexa integration, airplay 2 integration and a whole lot of other stuff.

If they took the latest firmware, trimmed it down to the bare essentials needed for current features, they would probably have loads of space left.

What they need to do is get away from the “every speaker MUST have identical firmware” and begin “Legacy devices has basic firmware that the new firmware versions can talk to, and enable the functions that the legacy device can handle like multiroom streaming and MP3 playback”.

 

I would even think that this approach would give them enough space to be able to update streaming services, if they change the way their stream works….Atleast until such a time, that the actual processor can not keep up, and at that time they would be able to do as you suggest.

They could even make a bit of money if they made a “legacy / Modern” bridge, that facilitatet the connection between new and old. This bridge would contain “plenty of ram/rom/processing power”.

 

But i suspect they would rather “force” you to buy a lot of new speakers instead of one legacy to modern bridge.

 

This is exactly why I think it's a financial decision. 

 

Instead of making separate firmware / a distributed computing model, they are encouraging customers to upgrade perfectly good hardware.

 

There aren't any other obvious motivators to go down that path. They knew they would take a PR hit for it. They must have gambled on making a profit in the long run. 

#BoycottSonos
A
Userlevel 1

I have invested a lot of money in Sonos products over the past few years. Ending support for them so soon is very disappointing. 
 

Luckily Amazon are now providing Echo Studio and other high quality sound products at much lower cost so I will switch to them from now on. Unlike Sonos, Amazon has never let me down. 

I don’t expect Sonos to be around much longer  You will be getting no more money from me anyway.

 

K

Even the Sonos founder (John MacFarlane) has “legacy” products (he also has a few other comments):

https://twitter.com/johnlmacfarlane?lang=en

This is BIG. Among other things it establishes that the Sonos founder and CEO for a decade plus till the present one took over, did not see any value/merit in the Trade Up scheme. And that he sees no point in upgrading the legacy parts of his 14 zone system at this point in time.

K
Userlevel 2

So, a well known luxury car maker, from whom you bought a car about 5 years ago contacts you.

“We are going to put a new engine in our cars from May and therefore we are going to stop servicing support to the older engines.  We can offer you a new engine for your “old” car at a modest discount, however if you decided not to take up this offer, we can not guarantee that your car will continue to work if anybody changes their specifications on oils and fuels in the future.  You can if you wish separate the engine from the rest of the car, in which case we will continue to service and repair the bodywork, cabin, tyres and suspension as before.  If you don’t wish to separate the engine from the the rest of the car. we will not service any of it.”

Please let us know how you wish to proceed.

PS.  Sorry

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +2

Does anyone have any idea what features the May firmware update is going to add that resulted in the “Legacy/Modern” decision?   Is SONOS going to add multi-room synchronized audio playback?  Wait.  SONOS already has that.    

I’m usually not the type of person who angrily posts online; but, this decision really is upsetting.    Of all the ways SONOS could have phased-out older tech, it seemed to choose the one that said, the loudest.    And then when we all complained, the CEO sent around a note that said, “Hey, I hear you’re upset.  Well I’m sorry your upset.  And, by the way, F*ck Y*u.”

Really, SONOS.  Really?  This was the best you could come up with as a way to move forward?   And, to top it all off, your CEO just  complained to Congress about how google/amazon was squeezing SONOS and other smaller competitors out of the market.   All while you were planning on doing this to your customer base?    

Patrick Spence needs to grow one of those old-timely-long-black-curly-mustaches so we know upfront just how evil he is.  

F
Userlevel 3

Quite simply what a bunch of idiots.  I have run and continue to run several companies.  In no possible drug fueled session could i come up with a better way to damage a competitors business than what Sonos have done to themselves. 

 

Customers expensive speakers the value of which wiped out within a seconds, future sales decimated, product brand killed.

 

Its not a step back and saying we got it wrong, of course we will support these expensive products, and do any small hardware tweeks for a small fee if necessary to make sure they can still work for another decade or more to come, but there should be vacant chairs at the board meetings for the stupid greedy idiots who thought this was ever a good strategic company decision.   

 

Good bye Sonos,  i have 15 of your units you have now valued as zero, as i would never ever buy another of your products as the situation stands, or your current CEO is in place!!!!

K
Userlevel 5
Badge +2

To name this thread “Clarifications” is a joke, I am more confused, angry and sad than I was before reading it. Sonos’ communication on this whole thing is beyond abysmal. This is like finding out that the woman you loved and envisioned living with until the end of days suddenly turning schizophrenic and psychotic. You cannot believe it, but she is incommunicable. You want it to not be true, and hope for the best, but you realize that you may have to end it.  

F
Userlevel 3

What really annoys me when i search about the backlash, is that clearly some PR person from Sonos has tried to make it seem the most upsetting aspect customers have is that new and old will not work together in a single system or the new cant have s/w upgrades, and oops let it be known that yes they can now do something about that so all is ok.

 

WELL THAT IS NOT WHAT IS ANNOYING ME AT ALL, OR IT THINK THE MAJORITY OF YOUR NOW EX LOYAL CUSTOMERS

 

Its the fact the 15 Sonos devices i have that Sonos labels as legacy ( I label as dam expensive speakers now worthless)  are NOT going to be software upgraded IN THE FUTURE to work with my on line streaming accounts such as Deezer, meaning they are useless to me once AND WHILST sonos suddenly claims Deezer will not work anymore with my Sonos kit, due to Sonos lazy ass, greedy, customer bashing, brand damaging  policy does not change.

 

Stop trying to spin your self away FROM THE FACT you have just written off 100,000s of customers investment in your product by suggesting we are upset about something as small as “legacy not working with New” on a single system, its the fact you are not s/w updating older products to work with the services we bought our product to work with,as i would not ever now buy any of your new kit from now on ever ever again.

F
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

 

KC007

You got it EXACTLY right !!!!!!

U
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

Does anyone have any idea what features the May firmware update is going to add that resulted in the “Legacy/Modern” decision? 

Well, this is one of the biggest indicators that it’s all rubbish, isn’t it? If the situation Sonos are claiming was real (the devices have run out of capability) then the whole thing would have happened the other way around - something (eg. Spotify) would have broken, then Sonos would have said ‘Sorry everyone, we can’t implement the necessary fix on the Play 5 because they just aren’t capable enough’.

The fact that they’ve announced the situation in advance is pretty strong evidence that they’re just looking for a scapegoat to hide behind.

N
Userlevel 2
Badge +1

The system needs to do what it has to do. We all have features we want and don't want.  This really isn't about evidence. It seems overwhelmingly likely to me that this is about technical limitations.  That a certain amount of conmon capability is needed.  To others it looks like a money grab. Although in the same breath they say Sonos are committing commercial suicide. 

So believe what you like.


 I dont expect the old speakers to stream flac…..

They have done for years…. I’ve never used anything else...

What bitrate?

CD quality...

My issues were with higher than CD quality flac rips, particularly with multi rooms running at the same time. Anyway glad it is working well for you.

 

Sonos has run 16bit 44.1kHz stereo (standard CD audio) from day one. It has never supported 24 bit, SACD etc.  FLAC encoded to CD standard is the generally preferred codec. Of course you can stream mp3 etc but I wanted CD quality, and have had that for over 8 years.  I do not personally know anyone, after extended testing, who can actually hear a difference between CD at 16 bit and any 24 bit source, provided they are played on the same high end equipment as an A/B comparison. So Sonos has met my audio needs, over a period when there was little competition that worked as well at a reasonable price.  But this debacle changes things, and the market has moved on.  Unless a reasonable solution (eg a smarter Boost that will supply audio over Sonosnet mesh to all Sonis components) is found, Sonos is dead. It’s ironic that their Nasdaq handle is SONO … so, no. 

B
Userlevel 4
Badge +7

None of my speakers are legacy but I agree with all the sentiment here. I’ve never seen anything like this and the backlash is unprecedented. Even on non tech forums and major newspapers people are encouraging others to not buy Sonos anymore. This is a PR nightmare. Sonos have overnight shown how to ruin a company after over a decade of having a great name.

 

Sonos sold this product as having wonderful advantages over bluetooth. They never said that they would turn off support and leave everyone high and dry. These are not items anyone would expect to replace every 5 years nor would many people be able to afford to when they have been encouraged to fill their house full of speakers. If Sonos planned to pull support on these speakers they at minimum should have placed a protocol like Bluetooth on the speakers to allow them to be used independently off the proprietary software.

 

There is a class action waiting to happen against Sonos and it will be thoroughly deserved. The way they have treated customer’s since this new CEO came in is disgraceful. The fact Sonos hasn’t even bothered to cover this up by announcing new features that supposedly cause the older speakers to no longer be compatible shows how much contempt they have.

1 x Arc, 1 x Beam Gen 2, 1 x Amp, 2 x Sonos In Ceiling Speakers, 2 x Sub, 9 x Sonos Ones, 5 x Symfonisk Lamp
K

To name this thread “Clarifications” is a joke, I am more confused, angry and sad than I was before reading it. Sonos’ communication on this whole thing is beyond abysmal. This is like finding out that the woman you loved and envisioned living with until the end of days suddenly turning schizophrenic and psychotic. You cannot believe it, but she is incommunicable. You want it to not be true, and hope for the best, but you realize that you may have to end it.  

Lol. I can think of an obvious analogy of using Line In jacks...:zipper_mouth:

K

 

 I do not personally know anyone, after extended testing, who can actually hear a difference between CD at 16 bit and any 24 bit source, provided they are played on the same high end equipment as an A/B comparison. So Sonos has met my audio needs

Hear hear. But here is the thing - Sonos keeps getting hammered over and over and over on these lines:  Good but….Hi Res is missing. Ad nauseam. 

The marketing people must be desperate by now to get Hi res into Sonos so they can punch back at this “truth”. The quoted because “repeat a lie over and over and over, people start taking it for the truth” - Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s minister for propaganda - in modern words, minister for marketing.

Even if this means jettisoning swathes of the installed base.

A
Userlevel 6
Badge +10

Whilst I’m tense about Sonos announcements and management since I got my device death list, I’m still listening to what Sonos have to say.

I’m in the listening camp but close towards joining the ‘f**k you’ camp. Whilst it’s ruined my enthusiasm for the brand, I’m still using it 8 hours of most days and I hope they do pull a fat rabbit out of the hat and shut us all up.

That remains to be seen and I’m still expecting a clear road map from Sonos by 31st Jan. 

We had the device execution email. We had an ‘intention email’ (ok-ish). NOW we need the ‘THIS IS WHAT WE WILL DO AND WHEN’ email. I expect this by Friday this week to keep me listening and open to Sonos.

That said I have purchased Roon, installed it and am currently trying it.

And I have to say it ain’t half bad! And works a treat with all the Sonos devices and sounds …. pretty damn good! 

Is a doddle to set up. The sound is very very good. The interface is new and I’m stumbling around it some … but with success. I’m sure there are down sides and things I do not get yet.

I’d urge you all to do the same. Just try it that it. Not saying I will storm away from Sonos …  despite all this pain and misery I still like what it does. Not necessarily the organisation! 

But if Sonos does not shape up then I want to know were the exits are. The Roon product appears an interesting ‘out’ with limited pain …. and maybe some real gain. Is an interesting exercise either way.

They do a free 14 day trial. 

F
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

Sonos has pre planned this months ago ... they knew their kit was/will be obsolete {legacy}as the competition {Google Amazon}has 24bt against there 16bt plus bigger memory. The old "legacy" kit is doomed. Even the newer kit will go "legacy over a short time .

So a conscious decision was made at the top ....

They decided to lose the existing customer as they cant be upgraded .Sonos knew there would be a customer storm BUT they were all considered as expendable. They also decided to try and cut out the middle man {shops stores and distributors} and shift what would become OLD equipment by offering a 30% discount off the Recommended Retail Price, RRP, IF you buy it direct from them and only them at full price . Make more money and get rid of OLD stock at the same time .

Genius !

BUT

What a massive storm on the internet ... so much anger ... could be the makings of a horror movie !
I wish i was a fly on the Sonos boardroom wall ... what a self inflicted total nightmare .
But seriously ...
It doesn't matter what Sonos does or says now ... the Sonos brand is now very toxic if not dead !
Even if they roll back everything to "as was" I for one will not be buying any more of their kit.
I have lost all trust in the product and the company. I realise if it goes bust nothing will work
but i consider my existing kit as worthless now anyway ... even if i bought new ... it will eventually go "Legacy"
 
SONOS = LEGACY = SCRAP . Lets call it what it really is !

This whole Sonos debacle has made me realise that any Internet connected hardware from any company is time limited.
Why spend top money on the best products { which Sonos was } when a cheaper alternative is available
When it goes "Legacy" i wont lose so much of my hard earned money if i buy cheaper ...

PS

I hope that if it does go bust all the hard working innocent staff get re-employed in any Sonos alternative company . 

They are the ones who will really be paying the price for this crazy stupid mess ....

Yours

A Totally 100% angry pissed off disillusioned never ever again former Sonos advocate
 

C
Userlevel 7
Badge +1

a

Let's be clear, the reasoning of devices reaching technical limits is just a poor excuse.

Those devices being categorised as legacy need do nothing more than receive an audio stream.

It is ENTIRELY possible for this to be done by having another device in the mesh/network do the processing and pass this stream to a legacy device.

It could be achieved by either the addition of a separate single box in the mesh controlling this, or existing more powerful devices processing the audio for its legacy neighbour/s.

It is exactly the same principal as your wireless headphones with 2mb ram being able to play sound while your phone, ipad whatever does the work of receiving, transcodeing and transmitting the stream.

This move by sonos, coupled with it's new hardware having a "5 year support" line is nothing but a transition toward making sonos a disposable item like a smartphone.

A single smartphone in my pocket may be disposable every 5 years.

A 20 zone multi room music system with a £6000 ($8000) price tag, is NOT a 5 year disposable item for me.


They can even make it so that the speaker itself does this.

They say they do not have anough flash and ram, but right now every speaker runs the same firmware, meaning that a lot of code inside for example the Play 5 is not used for the play 5.

Alexa integration, airplay 2 integration and a whole lot of other stuff.

If they took the latest firmware, trimmed it down to the bare essentials needed for current features, they would probably have loads of space left.

What they need to do is get away from the “every speaker MUST have identical firmware” and begin “Legacy devices has basic firmware that the new firmware versions can talk to, and enable the functions that the legacy device can handle like multiroom streaming and MP3 playback”.

 

I would even think that this approach would give them enough space to be able to update streaming services, if they change the way their stream works….Atleast until such a time, that the actual processor can not keep up, and at that time they would be able to do as you suggest.

They could even make a bit of money if they made a “legacy / Modern” bridge, that facilitatet the connection between new and old. This bridge would contain “plenty of ram/rom/processing power”.

 

But i suspect they would rather “force” you to buy a lot of new speakers instead of one legacy to modern bridge.

 

This is exactly why I think it's a financial decision. 

 

Instead of making separate firmware / a distributed computing model, they are encouraging customers to upgrade perfectly good hardware.

 

There aren't any other obvious motivators to go down that path. They knew they would take a PR hit for it. They must have gambled on making a profit in the long run. 

They should redesign all new Sonos systems with a module holding the processor, memory and networking hardware. The module would be held in place with simple screws and could be upgraded at home when needed. The parts of the speakers that will take 50 years or more to fail are, sort off recycled. This would be good for the environment, good for our investment in the product and good for Sonos. No electronic company currently dose this, Sonos could be a world leader but would need the will to do it, just  my thoughts on this mess...

K

@Fobskid - internet connected hardware is here to stay, not using it would be cutting your nose to spite your face.

Consider instead modular solutions. A smart internet connected front end module wire connected to a robust, quality speaker designed, built and provided service to last for decades, or to the extent its price justifies.

Technology has made the smart modules very cheap - or it is the strategy of Amazon, Google and like to make these loss leaders and therefore cheap enough to replace every couple of years, while the speaker they are wired to soldiers on for years and years.

At the same time, hold on to all legacy products - the existing ones will last years as above described robust speakers. Unless Sonos breaks one more pledge, its latest. But why worry about that till it happens? 

K

@chris_h1957 : Exactly. Shout this from the roof tops, this is a brilliant idea. 

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