End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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baconator
Userlevel 2
Badge +2

Yamaha musicast looking very good as a replacement, so if I lose streaming on the sonos I'll get the Yamaha and use the sonos as a dumb speaker system.

Why Yamaha? Trying to see why that seems to be the pick by most here.

K
Userlevel 7
Badge +16

Stock is down nearly 10% this week.  Has dropped fairly heavily this morning.  How much more does it need to drop before the message hits home?  Breaking the whole home brand promise is a huge degradation of the user experience.  It’s not acceptable.  Sure, my speakers still work as speakers, but they don’t work as an integrated infrastructure - which is why I bought them in the first place.

 

CEO statement yesterday was basically flannel reiterating what we already knew.  I’m still not buying anything else at this point.

That's a massive shift in a week, karma (what goes around comes around!).

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Since this announcement a few days ago the share price has dropped 6.5%.

Thats a billion dollars wiped off the company value.  A fair few “trade ups” would need to be sold to recover that.

Hows about just going back to plan A and not treating your existing customer base like a cash cow adn expecting them to just suck it up that their home sound system which has been added to over the years is about to get ripped apart.


Good thing Nicholas Millington, Chief Product Officer, sold 30% of his shares on January 2nd for $500,000.00 before the share price started going down.  Shrewd trader that Nicholas :wink: .

http://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001314727/5e4c0a01-abfa-4ea8-bf30-6a97f31fb24d.pdf

It’s probably already been asked, but isn’t that type of activity illegal? Knowing sh1t is about to happen and offloading your stock before the market knows??

Yes, it very much is.  If you are aware of information that is likely to have a significant impact on share price, and act upon that information before it is made public, it is insider trading.  Which is certainly illegal.


Sonos IPO didn’t crater , but … 

The $2 billion valuation is far short of the $2.5 to $3 billion valuation that analysts expected before the IPO.

The tempered enthusiasm is based on fears that Sonos will struggle to compete as a single device manufacturer.

Ryan S
Userlevel 7
Badge +26

It seems telling that Ryan_S has not made a comment or clarification in many, many pages of posts. 

Either we’re all being allowed to vent, or there’s nothing new to say. Or both.

I’m reading along, but there hasn’t been much in need of clarification that hasn’t already been said.

And everyone is definitely allowed to vent. As long as the community rules are followed (for example no personal attacks and keeping profanity out of your posts) we welcome the feedback. I’m also making sure to share your voice with the right people.

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.
B
Userlevel 3
Badge +1
If SONOS had a Music Streaming Service or any service for monthly revenue, this announcement probably wouldn't have happened. Computer companies give away printers for the toner business, Air Purifiers for replacement filters and so on. They didn't plan like Apple or Microsoft did for some kind of monthly income subscription, after SONOS sold you a box, that was it unless you bought another one.   My 12 year old extensive SONOS Network includes (4) Play 5 gen 1 units that operate like the day I bought them. Internet Radio, Music Services and my Lossless Music Files all play flawlessly. So how can it be their limited CPU or Ram capability can't continue doing what they're supposed to do until they just stop working? Spotify is a terrific music service and should they change their technology as to not be compatible with SONOS, I'll cancel my subscription. I never bought SONOS because of streaming music services, they were just a nice add on.   SONOS is being compared to smart phones, they don't operate anywhere near that level of technology and no one bought SONOS for any other purpose than music. SONOS never told me of any planned obsolescence over my 12 years of purchases nor did I expect them to start my vehicle, open my front door or start my microwave.    One upgrade path SONOS could have earned more business from me would be Hi-Resolution Audio, not some insulting 30% discount off new products if I toss my perfectly good working units into landfill.   I bought SONOS to listen to Music and now they're telling me how I should be using their products in the future.   Brent
N
Userlevel 5
Badge +1

My question continues to be what is Sonos going to do for their customers who were deceptively sold old stock which in turn had as little as a 4 year fully functional lifespan?

 

if Sonos was making under the radar hardware changes to connect amps but not publicizing what changed or how to spot the old ones (now legacy aka garbage to the rest of my 15k dollar whole home system) they should have been removed from the sales channel. 
 

I have 4 connect amps purchased new less than 5 years ago and 3 are current and 1 is legacy. 
 

that is very deceptive and clearly less than their new commitment to 5 year update life span. 
 

What a scam

I
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

Since this announcement a few days ago the share price has dropped 6.5%.

Thats a billion dollars wiped off the company value.  A fair few “trade ups” would need to be sold to recover that.

Hows about just going back to plan A and not treating your existing customer base like a cash cow adn expecting them to just suck it up that their home sound system which has been added to over the years is about to get ripped apart.


Good thing Nicholas Millington, Chief Product Officer, sold 30% of his shares on January 2nd for $500,000.00 before the share price started going down.  Shrewd trader that Nicholas :wink: .

http://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001314727/5e4c0a01-abfa-4ea8-bf30-6a97f31fb24d.pdf

It’s probably already been asked, but isn’t that type of activity illegal? Knowing sh1t is about to happen and offloading your stock before the market knows??

Yes, it very much is.  If you are aware of information that is likely to have a significant impact on share price, and act upon that information before it is made public, it is insider trading.  Which is certainly illegal.


Sonos IPO didn’t crater , but … 

The $2 billion valuation is far short of the $2.5 to $3 billion valuation that analysts expected before the IPO.

The tempered enthusiasm is based on fears that Sonos will struggle to compete as a single device manufacturer.

But stock market values are not only determined by the separation of Sonos units into modern and legacy categories - think world economic outlooks; US/ China tariffs; competitor actions; failure to meet pre IPO forecasts for a whole host of reasons…

But, the share price has taken a sizeable knock in the last couple of days but not to the degree implied above..

R
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

Still really disappointed with this mess.

It has occurred to me that provided they were willing to provide basic maintenance to keep the existing app functionality essentially as it is now (which they may have now conceded, it’s not terribly clear) they could have achieved almost the same outcome by just announcing the exciting ‘Sonos 2.0’, ‘New Sonos’ or whatever which will now be the main focus of future developments saying only newer devices were eligible/capable to move to it and if you have a mixed system you can split or stay as you are now. No-one loses (I mean half the time people curse the app updates and changes), some people gain, maybe people aspire to have the newer system and replace some of their kit. 
 

That does assume its possible to keep the ‘legacy’ devices going - there have been examples recently of not-that-old smart Samsung tvs losing Netflix apparently for technical reasons despite them previously handling it fine, although there a cheap chromecast or similar is a fairly easy fix. 

S
Userlevel 3

Retailers in the Netherlands are now dumping Sonos for a 21% discount, makes the 30% trade-up an even bigger joke.

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

Yamaha musicast looking very good as a replacement, so if I lose streaming on the sonos I'll get the Yamaha and use the sonos as a dumb speaker system.

Why Yamaha? Trying to see why that seems to be the pick by most here.

 

Simple really the Yamaha will add into the sonos system and once the sonos stops working completely or I bin it the Yamaha will take the sonos place. But one thing I know for sure I will never commit to any system as I did with sonos. This has taught me that we are at the whims of the manufacturers.

H
Userlevel 6
Badge +3

It seems telling that Ryan_S has not made a comment or clarification in many, many pages of posts. 

Either we’re all being allowed to vent, or there’s nothing new to say. Or both.

I’m reading along, but there hasn’t been much in need of clarification that hasn’t already been said.

And everyone is definitely allowed to vent. As long as the community rules are followed (for example no personal attacks and keeping profanity out of your posts) we welcome the feedback. I’m also making sure to share your voice with the right people.


Good to know you are listening along Ryan, and passing information to the relevant parties.

Could I ask you to pass on information to the advertising department that current UK advertising states ‘Build a system’.

Then goes onto say ‘expand it any time’, and ‘easily connect speakers in different rooms …. brings every room together’

This is incorrect, it needs to state (from May?) that you cannot expand the system if you have any legacy equipment in the network, and that if you do so, you’ll not be expanding the system as such but creating two separate systems (and hence cannot bring every room together).

C
Userlevel 4
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Hi all employees and the CEO at SONOS, the past days has been turmoilf us and for you, CEO has halfway withdrawn the statement made earlier in the week and I have felt resentment to SONOS, totally losing trust in you.

 

What SONOS must do in order to earn back the trust is to prove words with rock solid actions and promises, not a single vague reservation will be accepted by your customers anymore, your wording will be analyzed and interpreted by us all.

 

All of us have and still enjoy your products, you thought that you could make us accept the first message and you have with your anlysis late 2019 shown that such statements would damage your brand and still you went along instead of finding an better option. This falls on all the management and employees that has been involved in this mess.

 

I’am looking into my options and currently I have no intention of expanding my current SONOS stable with further products from you, until you prove to me that you deserve to get my money again.

 

So prove yourself to me and the other customers with real promises and actions, you probably need to show the roadmap for us in this matter (and for your competition) in order to acheive this.

 

You have envisioned yourself as a premium brand-being one of the more expensive solutions, that leads the market, continue to behave as such and in this you need to consider that your speakers are speakers not computers, your tech platform must always be ocmpliant to that so your customers continue to buy your products.

 

If you choose a tech platform solution that is inferior from cost perspective ( I mean 4 GB of memory wasn’t unobtainable when you started building your units-costwise, lessons of memory need has bee around since the 90s), then you need to have another track for upgrading that tech platform than you have today.

 

Do anything else and I can promise you failure

 


I have a feeling the entire company is in turmoil.  I was working with some great support folks over the last 2 weeks to nail down some Sonosnet issues and now I can’t get anyone to respond.  The engineer/hi-tier folks are booked out over a week now and I don’t dare contact their offshore-contracted support.  Maybe they are all at an emergency offsite meeting trying to right the ship.  Hope they do because like so many, I invested not only a lot of money but a lot of personal time over the years building out my Whole-Home-Audio system and while I absolutely hate this management debacle I want my system to continue to work TOGETHER, not split!  

 

It looks when the new leadership moved in they didn’t pay attention at the briefing about their customers and community.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

Yamaha musicast looking very good as a replacement, so if I lose streaming on the sonos I'll get the Yamaha and use the sonos as a dumb speaker system.

Why Yamaha? Trying to see why that seems to be the pick by most here.

I tried it out (got the first device today) because it was same price as the trade-in price at Sonos to get a Port but with more features, more connections, etc., and as far as I could see, a reasonable sized user base. The latter should be some kind of security for this system to keep existing for a while, I thought.

After ordering this, I learned about other potentially interesting systems - especially Teufel looks both low-price and reasonably feature-rich, and Primare Prisma looks like a potentially high quality product (even though I haven’t seen or listened to it, so it may be an illusion).

As for the Yamaha, my first impression is that the device (a WXC-50 - pre-amp/streamer) is quite solidly built and not fully as ugly as I had expected - the LEDs on the front can even be switched off, making it look more discrete. Plugged it to the amp (an old mid-range Sony, originally bought with my Sonos ZP90) quickly and easily using the cables from the ZP90 for power, network, and signal (COAX digital). Setup through the mobile app - super easy, it magically by itself configured network, connected to the app and everything else, just by pushing one button.

Sound quality was not nice until I found a setting for “Bass Extension”. The amp does have a quite thin sound profile and needs the extra bass in its input, so other amps may not need this flag set. 

Internet radio worked out of the box but I had problems with my NAS (an old one from LG) - making sure that DLNA settings were correct, suddenly it started working, and for a while I could then listen to one song at a time, then it stopped, then I had to pick a different album, again one song, etc. - probably due to it being busy indexing (didn’t say that it was but was flashing the screen irregularly and jumping away from my selections all the time). Currently, after an hour or so, the album/artist list is a big mess and there are wrong titles in the queue - playing mostly what I select but shows something else!

Should mention that it plays files from the smartphone without problems - quality is perfect and finding and selecting the files is simple and pleasant.

The device has an http server built-in, so it can be used directly from the browser - settings and selection of what to play. The interface, however, is primitive and not at all modern. The Android mobile app looks better, even though it has an unusual flow (but not necessarily bad). Nothing of this reaches the standard of Sonos apps.

As for now, I like the sound quality but not the user interface. I have not yet had the chance to try anything multiroom, and neither the many connection types supported, including bluetooth.

“This is a chance now to come up with a system that doesn’t cause massive planetary damage in exchange for disposable stuff,” Proctor said. (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3a8dpn/sonos-makes-it-clear-you-no-longer-own-the-things-you-buy)
I
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

Retailers in the Netherlands are now dumping Sonos for a 21% discount, makes the 30% trade-up an even bigger joke.

Don’t see the joke…

 

Take an imaginary Sonos unit retailing at £100 (if only!)

With the Trade Up Sonos offer , this would cost £70.

Assuming the retailer offering the discount is also participating in the Sonos Trade-In Scheme, the net price taking account of the Sonos Trade-in and the retailer’s discount is £55.30.  Appreciate not all retailers will be participating with Sonos Trade In.

T

Dear Sonos Community & Company,

I just wanted to pitch in, being a Sonos product user since 2012, I am a bit dismayed about Sonos’ announcement. It certainly does not encourage me to invest in Sonos in the future, no matter how this matter is resolved. I am a Connect user only so my  hifi plays on regardless, if I had a Sonos speaker I would be, frankly, f furious. I don’t know if there is a halfway measure here to pay for product updates for example.

 

I think the bad press generated by this event is potentially the beginning of the end for Sonons so I don’t see a happy ending for anyone here. Hopefully I am wrong (usually!). Simply put, when alternative, good quality, hifi equipment can be purchased for the same price as a Sonos speaker, invest wisely and do not be held to ransom. Spread the news.

 

Kevin

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

My Mail to Mr Spence…

 

Dear Mr. Spence,

I’ve read your statement. https://blog.sonos.com/en/a-letter-from-our-ceo/
It’s definitely not clear and satisfying enough. It’s a good indication that you’ve heard us but it will not make us paying any money to become even more depended on your system and your – as it seems – good will. Splitting up a multi room system makes it becoming a single-room-system. That’s not what the customer has bought and paid for. That’s not why we choose Sonos.

Concentrate on your main business, playing music from as much as possible sources. Offer the newest tech stuff which needs stronger hardware on separate devices two those who really want it. Start to split weak and strong devices in terms of software but keep them together in the same group.

What you’ve done made us aware of how much we have to rely on you. It cleared up my mind, how great the simplicity of a bluetooth speaker is. It can be connected to whatever device – in can solely replace if it’s not workening any longer and it will work (almost) forever. How clever it ist to split up the wireless connected music playing device and the speaker itself.

There will be plenty of used Sonos devices on the 2nd hand market the next few weeks and months. Your sales will break down.

Show us your true good will. Provide us with even better solutions (direct play from a mobile device – android and apple).

Yours sincerely

 

 

This is what everyone is upset about. Either Spence didn’t understand why people are upset or he’s still not willing to listen to customer feedback. 

most likely both 

F
Userlevel 2

Sorry for appearing simple but surely if yesterday’s modern products are now legacy, then today’s modern products will be legacy tomorrow. Who on earth would upgrade knowing that this will be a temporary fix?

R
Userlevel 3
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Okay, everyone is venting their anger which is normal.

But can we for a second talk about what options us “legacy” users have after May.

We actually listen to the same, maybe 5 streaming radio channels. Today via Tunein Radio in our house when we dont stream music from our NAS.

 

Lets say that TuneIn changes something, making me unable to connect to the radio channels because sonos legacy devices can not decipher them.

 

I was thinking...What if i had another device that could receive the channels, recode them to some format Sonos legacy still supports and the re-cast them.


I dont know if a Raspberry pi would have enough processor power to do this, but there is an option in Sonos “Add radio station” so if i could get the Pi to receive the station, recode it and retransmit it, i would be able to stream radio channels to legacy devices for as long as the program on the PI was updated.

 

Alternatively i have a QNAP NAS that is always on, is there some app on this, that would be able to do this.

Good attitude. I’d suggest jumping off this thread, and over to another: https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-a-pragmatic-way-past-it-6836056/index4.html#post16398393

You can totally do this with a pi. Part of this whole thing is a plan by Sonos to get us to spend money upgrading, when they could have done workarounds.

R
Userlevel 3
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Why bother and staying with Sonos? I made up my mind in just a few hours. There are other systems on the market that hopefully wont stab us in the back suddenly.

 

Just sold three ZP100. Next step: the rest of the system. So looking forward to Yamaha Musiccast!

I saw other posts mentioning Yamaha musicast, I am going to check it out.

J
Userlevel 2

It is unclear to me why it is necessary to insist that the SonosNet would have to be split or legacy systems and newer systems can't coexist together. I am a software developer, so my background is primarily software, not hardware, but taking a page out of something I've seen Azure do, why not have each device have a list of capabilities that it supports? Then, each feature that is supported has capabilities that it requires. It is simply then a matter of matching capabilities when a feature is executed.

 

For example
Play:5 Gen1, Capabilities: A, B, C

Play:5 Gen2, Capabilities: A, B, C, D, E

 

If I want to execute feature "D" (maybe Atmos?), then the app only shows "D" as the speaker that can be used. If I want to say, just listen to music off a network drive ("A"), then both are enabled for use (in the 'grouping' function).

T
Userlevel 2

For those considering Yamaha MusicCast, this is from their FAQ:

Is the new MusicCast system compatible with an old MusicCAST or MusicCAST2 systems from a decade ago?

Yamaha was one of the first AV manufacturers to introduce a wireless multi-room audio system, similarly named MusicCAST, back in 2003. This was followed by MusicCAST2 in 2009, and then MusicCast in August 2015. Models released from August 2015 to present are compatible with one another. Select newer models also support MusicCast Surround/ Stereo which are only compatible with other models that also support MusicCast Surround/Stereo.
 

How is that any different or better than what Sonos is doing now (except for the fact that they’re up front about the new/old system incompatibility)?  

J

It is unclear to me why it is necessary to insist that the SonosNet would have to be split or legacy systems and newer systems can't coexist together. I am a software developer, so my background is primarily software, not hardware, but taking a page out of something I've seen Azure do, why not have each device have a list of capabilities that it supports? Then, each feature that is supported has capabilities that it requires. It is simply then a matter of matching capabilities when a feature is executed.

Presumably you already have that to some extent, e.g. a Port can be an input or an output or both, whereas a Play has no inputs.

But for the underlying issue here, it’s overkill. What’s needed is a reduced “Legacy” firmware that just supports getting music from other more-current devices in the network, and playing that music. Not every device needs to be able to connect to Spotify, as long as something on the network can.

In fact, that’s how the system already works. If you have a group of three speakers playing music from Spotify (just as an example), they aren’t making three separate connections to Spotify to get the music. One device is downloading, the others are just playing. The Legacy firmware just needs to assert that it will always be the follower and never handle the connection to the internet. No need to split the network at all, because with the reduced functionality requirements, the Legacy firmware will fit in the available memory of these devices. How do I know? Because it doesn’t require the devices to do anything they don’t do already.

 

I
Userlevel 3
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No, my system doesn’t require attention,  I’m afraid some of you nerds at Sonos require attention.  Do you really think you can con customers who have spent a bundle on your products into throwing them away for your replacement scheme to increase profits?  Most of us would rather switch to the competition after you make our present equipment obsolete.  Better rethink this one guys!  Your company is going down the tubes.

C

 Then, each feature that is supported has capabilities that it requires. It is simply then a matter of matching capabilities when a feature is executed.

 

For example
Play:5 Gen1, Capabilities: A, B, C

Play:5 Gen2, Capabilities: A, B, C, D, E

 

If I want to execute feature "D" (maybe Atmos?), then the app only shows "D" as the speaker that can be used. If I want to say, just listen to music off a network drive ("A"), then both are enabled for use (in the 'grouping' function).

Exactly

A = My Music Library - YES

B = Spotify - YES;

C = TuneIn Radio - YES

All I have ever used an needed - across all rooms

As to the newer features

D - Voice Control by Applazonagoogle -Siralexablahblah Nope

E - Home Automation to turn off my smart lights when I press play - Nope

F - IFTTT Integration so when I ring the doorbell music starts - Nope

G - Etc Etc Etc Nope

Currently: 4 x Play 3 | 4 x Play1 | Sub | Playbar 1 | Connect | Bridge across 4 zones which are used in various combinations.

The Connect goes to a 30+ year old hand-built amp, and 20 year old high-end speakers - all of which show no signs of forced obsolescence.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

For those considering Yamaha MusicCast, this is from their FAQ:

Is the new MusicCast system compatible with an old MusicCAST or MusicCAST2 systems from a decade ago?

Yamaha was one of the first AV manufacturers to introduce a wireless multi-room audio system, similarly named MusicCAST, back in 2003. This was followed by MusicCAST2 in 2009, and then MusicCast in August 2015. Models released from August 2015 to present are compatible with one another. Select newer models also support MusicCast Surround/ Stereo which are only compatible with other models that also support MusicCast Surround/Stereo.
 

How is that any different or better than what Sonos is doing now (except for the fact that they’re up front about the new/old system incompatibility)?  

I would expect that they are not afraid of defining a new standard sooner or later and start producing equipment for that instead of the one that is current today. This is how the classic electronics industry normally works. The trick will then be to buy sufficiently many devices of a certain standard while they are still available.

However, Yamaha is producing other things as well and are integrating MusicCast in other products - probably sometimes selling these products to people who are not interested in that particular feature. So I guess that it is not an individual source of earnings for them, like it is for Sonos. Sonos has one main product only, being their software (of dubious quality, we have recently learned) - which they wrap up in different packagings (being the hardware) in order to sell as many copies of it as possible. Yamaha, on the other hand, sell music equipment of various sort, using the MusicCast software and concept as an added value - a sales parameter. They will earn money even if people should some day decide that multi-room music was a fad and no longer interesting; and even then, Yamaha can keep selling the feature because it is bundled with many other features.

So the main difference, as I see it, is the role that the multi-room feature plays for each of the companies - which will control their respective strategies in the markets.

“This is a chance now to come up with a system that doesn’t cause massive planetary damage in exchange for disposable stuff,” Proctor said. (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3a8dpn/sonos-makes-it-clear-you-no-longer-own-the-things-you-buy)
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