End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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jgatie

If this mythical “Smart Boost” were viable, and Sonos is really “pulling the wool”, why are the legacy units all limited to just 32 MB RAM/storage, and all the modern devices have more?  The Play:3 and Playbar are far older than the modern Connect units.   If Sonos is truly pulling a cash grab, those ancient devices would go too, RAM/storage capabilities be damned, right?  

Or maybe the mythical “Smart Boost” isn’t viable after all.  Occam’s shaving implement. 

melvimbe

 We know that a single component can be used to add new features to a system, witness the addition of one Airplay-compatible component (e.g. a One or a Symfonisk) can currently add AirPlay compatibility to the entire system. So the smart features DO NOT need to be in every component!

 

You’re making assumptions about what smart features are going to be added to S2, and that they are all component based.  We already know that one of the features is Hi Res audio.  That obviously would involve changes in how the audio is transported digitally between components in some way.  How would that be a feature for some devices but not all.  Would it be acceptable that the system not allow grouping of Hi Rez capable speakers with non-capable speakers?  Maybe some sort of system where the audio sent to legacy devices get a downgraded signal.  And how would that work with the mesh network, where it’s going to be sending signals in different paths depending on the resolution of the current signal.  Will that be stable.  And does it make sense to make all the changes for Hi Res audio, but some other feature can’t be worked around in a similar manner. 

 

 

 

Danny
J
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So the new Sonos Five is officially on the way. Man would I be PO’d if I had traded up to Gen 2’s.

Airgetlam

I’ve only seen rumors and speculation so far. Can you point to confirmation, please?

Bruce
J
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See   Pocket-LInt : “New Sonos Five and Sonos Sub suggest a major refresh is coming.”

Also 9 to 5 Mac :   “ Upcoming ‘Sonos Five’ and 3rd-gen Sonos Sub pictured in leaked photos”

Airgetlam

So, still rumors.

Bruce
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From 9 to 5 Mac : Sonos is readying updates to the Sonos Play:5, Sonos Sub, and Playbar as part of a Sonos press event scheduled for May 6th. Today, reporter Roland Quandt has shared photos on Twitter of what appears to be marketing images for the new products.

Pretty solid rumors. Guess we’ll find out soon.

J

So the new Sonos Five is officially on the way. Man would I be PO’d if I had traded up to Gen 2’s.

Why, if so? Same product, same money as they were happy  with yesterday. 

And then there is Sonos' generous returns policy  

So if rumours are true, so what?

J
Userlevel 2
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So the new Sonos Five is officially on the way. Man would I be PO’d if I had traded up to Gen 2’s.

Why, if so? Same product, same money as they were happy  with yesterday. 

And then there is Sonos' generous returns policy  

So if rumours are true, so what?

Because, if so, Sonos disengenuously dangled the bait of 30% off Gen 2’s when they knew a Gen 3 with hugely greater life expectancy was just aound the corner.

And even if, as is no doubt the case, those who bought Gen 2’s are happy with them, I believe that the great majority would have waited had they known.

J

I would give more users credit here. I don’t think people rush into decisions like updating hardware.

Many like myself have probably held off updating to second generation 5s precisely because it seemed likely that a new update was on the way.

I updated one of my 5s under the previous scheme to a Beam because it suited the use I was putting the 5 to, which was a bedroom speaker that occasionally streamed TV via audio-in. Now I have a dedicated Beam that is much more functional and properly connected to the bedroom TV (not used much).

But, I have deliberately waited to see what may happen before committing to doing anything with my second 5. I am sure many others have been equally cautious of ‘upgrading’ to slightly older technology.

In general we accept terms and conditions as presented. For example I could theoretically complain about my old bricked 5. But I went into an agreement willingly because it suited me. I got what I expected. I now have a unit gathering dust but theoretically I could offer it for spares to whoever I pass my other soon to be redundant 5 on to.

melvimbe

Because, if so, Sonos disengenuously dangled the bait of 30% off Gen 2’s when they knew a Gen 3 with hugely greater life expectancy was just aound the corner.

And even if, as is no doubt the case, those who bought Gen 2’s are happy with them, I believe that the great majority would have waited had they known.

 

It’s not 30% off of Gen 2’s.  It’s 30% off any single item  (including sets) on the site, and it has no expiration date.   What exactly were you expecting Sonos to do here? Not allow people to use the discount before new products were announced?  Or maybe give them a warning about potential new products?  Should Sonos publicly announce all of their product plans with as much notice as possible, killing existing product sales and give away all trade secrets, just so no one regrets buying now vs later?

 

What you’re complaining about really has nothing to do with the trade in discount, or with Sonos specifically either.  There is always going to be those who would have held off a purchase now had they known what was coming down the pipeline later.

Danny
S
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sonos release new 'arc' atmos soundbar

retired: 

playbase (i like the idea of putting your tv on top of a big speaker) 

sub gen 2

ive actually just updated to a denon av receiver and q acoustics 5.1 speakers and x2 cambridge minix speakers for atmos (ish - due to having a old 200 year old ceiling made out of lasagne sheets i decided to mount on the wall pointing down)

 

overall better than a playbase, sub and 2xplay1s as a 5.1 setup so glad i made the switch to 'dumb' speakers and i imagine will be better at atmos than a tiny thin soundbar lik3 the sonos arc.

 

the only thing i miss is the better music streaming feature (but i rarely use this, 99.5% of sonos use for me is 'tv sound' based on my sonos account). i cant listen to heos whilst playing a game on hdmi (though, i can stream via heos whilst watching freeview / dtv).

Smilja

sonos release new 'arc' atmos soundbar

retired: 

playbase (i like the idea of putting your tv on top of a big speaker) 

sub gen 2

 

The Playbase hasn’t been retired, it’s still around for purchase.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
D

Hi. Is my ZP90 eligible for the upgrade discount to a Sonos PORT?

jgatie

Hi. Is my ZP90 eligible for the upgrade discount to a Sonos PORT?

 

Yes. And the discount can be applied to any Sonos device.  

Ryan S
Userlevel 7
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Hi. Is my ZP90 eligible for the upgrade discount to a Sonos PORT?

Hi @Dave_24, you can check if your devices are upgrade eligible on your account page here. If that’s an original ZP90, yes I’m sure it is eligible, but it’s worth checking just in case.

 

EDIT: jgatie beat me to it… what he said :)

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.
D

Awesome. Thanks for your assistance.

 

Dave

A
Userlevel 3
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I cant see it written anywhere, how long the 30% off lasts for? Is there an expiry or anything?

jgatie

I cant see it written anywhere, how long the 30% off lasts for? Is there an expiry or anything?

 

There is no expiration.  It stays on your account until you use it.

N
Userlevel 2
Badge +1

 We know that a single component can be used to add new features to a system, witness the addition of one Airplay-compatible component (e.g. a One or a Symfonisk) can currently add AirPlay compatibility to the entire system. So the smart features DO NOT need to be in every component!

 

You’re making assumptions about what smart features are going to be added to S2, and that they are all component based.  We already know that one of the features is Hi Res audio.  That obviously would involve changes in how the audio is transported digitally between components in some way.  How would that be a feature for some devices but not all.  Would it be acceptable that the system not allow grouping of Hi Rez capable speakers with non-capable speakers?  Maybe some sort of system where the audio sent to legacy devices get a downgraded signal.  And how would that work with the mesh network, where it’s going to be sending signals in different paths depending on the resolution of the current signal.  Will that be stable.  And does it make sense to make all the changes for Hi Res audio, but some other feature can’t be worked around in a similar manner. 

 

 

 

OK - I agree that Hi-Res audio would not be possible in a mix of S2 and S1 components, that does make sense.  However I’m not sure hi-res is meaningful for the stand alone speakers as I doubt the listening experience would change noticeably.  Though it would be useful for the Port devices if used to feed a high end audio system, capable of using the additional definition.  How many people can actually hear the difference with hi-res audio - even with very good equipment?  It’s like comparing 24 vs 16 bit encoded FLAC, or SACD vs standard CD - very hard even with A:B comparison.

Features that relate to the source (streaming, radio, voice control, etc) could easily be handled by one smart device.  

Now that I’ve seen the most recent explanation of S2 vs S1 I’m happy to stay with S1 even though I have a few “modern” units. But if I do so, there’s no point in buying any new Sonos product released after May 2020, as these are stated as not being S1 compatible.  This means that if I have any equipment failures, I will have to buy used items in order to keep a full house-wide system.  And Sonos will have lost my custom for their new products, which is a shame.  I’m sure I will not be alone in this!

U

Yah, so, someone correct me if I’m wrong:

  1. If I want to use “groups” so all my speakers play the same music, I must be entirely on S1 or S2 - Which Sonos said a few weeks ago they would let you leave new devices on S1 if this was your goal (I have 4 connect:amps, and one current gen AMP, so this is my goal)
  2. They just announced 3 (4?) new products that ONLY support S2 - which suggests all future products will only support S2

So If I’m reading this correctly, I basically can never buy a new product if I want my devices that work ONLY on S1 to continue to sync music playback without confusing everyone who uses sonos in my house to switch between two “versions” of software.

Sonos - Seriously guys - I appreciate new features, new hardware, etc.  But why can you not write some code that allows streaming music playback grouping between S1 and S2?  You gave those of us that needed a workaround an option (I don't care about lossless high fidelity on my 6.5” Yamaha in celling speakers) and then almost immediately invalidated that workaround!!  I get that my old stuff wont support new features - but let them play music in a group!  That's not a new feature!

You are breaking your basic use case customers to enable your (arguably) more narrow “high technology” use case customers and it makes absolutely no sense.  Take a poll: How many of us just want to play music across our speakers?  Maybe do some basic TV audio?  Why is the app dev process so limited you had to break all that to enable Atmos or maybe lossless FLAC or something? 

melvimbe

OK - I agree that Hi-Res audio would not be possible in a mix of S2 and S1 components, that does make sense.  However I’m not sure hi-res is meaningful for the stand alone speakers as I doubt the listening experience would change noticeably.  Though it would be useful for the Port devices if used to feed a high end audio system, capable of using the additional definition.  How many people can actually hear the difference with hi-res audio - even with very good equipment?  It’s like comparing 24 vs 16 bit encoded FLAC, or SACD vs standard CD - very hard even with A:B comparison.

 

 

I agree that Hi-Res audio isn’t something people are going to hear the difference with.  I don’t think it matters though, since people want it, and Sonos is going to bring it.    Regardless, the point wasn’t specific about Hi-Res, just that some feature improvements have to be system wide, they can’t be done at the individual device level.

 

Features that relate to the source (streaming, radio, voice control, etc) could easily be handled by one smart device.  

 

True, and this has been the case with many features in the past.

 

Now that I’ve seen the most recent explanation of S2 vs S1 I’m happy to stay with S1 even though I have a few “modern” units. But if I do so, there’s no point in buying any new Sonos product released after May 2020, as these are stated as not being S1 compatible.  This means that if I have any equipment failures, I will have to buy used items in order to keep a full house-wide system.  And Sonos will have lost my custom for their new products, which is a shame.  I’m sure I will not be alone in this!

 

The only speakers that won’t work in S1 systems right now are the newly announced Arc, Sub gen 3, and Five.  Everything else Sonos sells will work.  You certainly can buy used if you wish, but buying new is an option.  The point is still valid though in the less that those on S1 systems are less likely to buy new products than they were previously.  However, that needs to against the fact that those on S2 and new customers are more likely to buy products due to the additional features.

 

Danny
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Sonos - Seriously guys - I appreciate new features, new hardware, etc.  But why can you not write some code that allows streaming music playback grouping between S1 and S2? 

IMO it isn’t in their financial interest to do this even if they could. As a hardware company (well until Sonos Radio which they seem to be monetizing?), they need people to discard their old devices and move to new ones to keep the lights on.

 

jgatie

 

Sonos - Seriously guys - I appreciate new features, new hardware, etc.  But why can you not write some code that allows streaming music playback grouping between S1 and S2? 

 

Because new features sometimes require modifications to the Sonos wireless protocol.  This is easily seen when you try to add a device that has sat on the store shelf for a while; it cannot connect wirelessly, so you need to connect it via Ethernet.  It subsequently updates to the latest software over Ethernet, and only then you can use it wirelessly. 

However, S1 devices have no ability to update to the latest software, they are permanently on the S1 version.  So they are stuck, unable to connect to the latest version of Sonos’ wireless, and thus unable to coexist with an S2 system.  

U

 

Sonos - Seriously guys - I appreciate new features, new hardware, etc.  But why can you not write some code that allows streaming music playback grouping between S1 and S2? 

IMO it isn’t in their financial interest to do this even if they could. As a hardware company (well until Sonos Radio which they seem to be monetizing?), they need people to discard their old devices and move to new ones to keep the lights on.

 

I’m good with the business model - and your point is spot on.  I respect that they have to make money and they are pressured to create reoccurring revenue.  That being said, there are things that are table stakes in a platform.  IMHO, throwing a bone to something as basic as grouping is the Sonos base value prop.  My 8 year old laptop can still connect to Wifi.  It may be a bit slower, the websites wont look as good, the graphics wont be as sharp - but it still fundamentally works.  I think this is one of the key things that has everyone so blatantly angry.  If my AMP dies, and I replace it, It may not work with my other products.  Id I want to add a sound bar, it may not work with my other products, for something that I bought SONOS for as a basic function: the same music coming from each device at the same time.  Cant add new music services?  fine.  Cant support higher bitrate or lossless protocols?  get it.  Cant make a Atmos 5.1 or 7.1 grouped system?  Get it.  Breaking grouping is an obvious statement: we are forcing obsolescence to make you upgrade functioning hardware that you paid a 500% premium for - which we new we were paying for that going in.

 

 

Sonos - Seriously guys - I appreciate new features, new hardware, etc.  But why can you not write some code that allows streaming music playback grouping between S1 and S2? 

 

Because new features sometimes require modifications to the Sonos wireless protocol.  This is easily seen when you try to add a device that has sat on the store shelf for a while; it cannot connect wirelessly, so you need to connect it via Ethernet.  It subsequently updates to the latest software over Ethernet, and only then you can use it wirelessly. 

However, S1 devices have no ability to update to the latest software, they are permanently on the S1 version.  So they are stuck, unable to connect to the latest version of Sonos’ wireless, and thus unable to coexist with an S2 system.  

 

I get that, and changes to the protocol may impact bandwidth, especially sound coordination at high bitrates, etc.  But making them simply not communicate would be poor design.  Wireless standards (which Sonos still uses a common wireless spectrum with billions of other devices) haven't changed.  Saying that they cant technically make the devices group at the least common denominator is a business decision, not a technical one.

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