End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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S
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

The only thing at this point that will change the mind of sonos is what the share price does as a result of this.

Make no mistake investors will be reading all these sorts of comments and taking a view on what this decision means for Sonos revenue.

Market opens in a couple of hours - watch this space.

I wish but the share price only dropped by 0.6% yesterday so I don’t think that investors are that worry about the whole thing.

S

“Which Sonos speakers are right for you?”  Effectively, none after this week’s news and emails. I have invested thousands of dollars in building a system I considered to be the best. Additionally, my support and recommendations have led family members and friends to choose your products. How silly do I look?  

I was mildly annoyed when, last year, I lost support for direct music play from my iOS devices.  Ok, so I cough up the additional $10 a month for an Apple subscription.  Now this. A larger concern - what next?

I have lost trust. Regrettably, I will no longer be a brand ambassador for this company.   The collateral disappointment is financial; I must now begin a search for a replacement system. 

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

So the CEO says they will bug fix for as long as possible, after Sonos themselves have already claimed that these devices are too underpowered for that same thing.

Defect fixes and other minor changes can be implemented with no increase in software footprint. New features cannot.

I repeat the statement that the CEO statement is just a PR whitewashed version of the same announcement. If it’s changed your sentiment towards Sonos at all then you’ve been manipulated.

If you can’t see the difference in the two statements, I can’t argue with you.

Note: don’t read this as evidence that I’m now happy with the situation. I think Sonos has further to go.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
O
Userlevel 3
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I don’t think that it is hysteria when I have to pay over £700 to keep my system up-to-date with nothing new to show for it. Next it is Play 1 and Play 3 Gen1 that is going to be another £500 from my pocket to keep a system working! It is the reality nothing else and it is not acceptable!

 

Niaccurshi: You just dont get it. So sad.

I’m in exactly the same position as the person you’ve quoted, in fact by the sounds of it even more likely to be struck by future legacy product announcements. But I also understand that the hardware is fine, and that as long as there is a solution to allow streaming of music across from modern systems to legacy systems, that this will mean I won’t have to upgrade or get rid of any of my existing products. That’s the most important news we can get, not some fantastical “70% discount” demands.

You are obviously oblivious to the margins companies such as SONOS work to, as you quote “fantastical “70% discount” demands. The fact is that SONOS could (and should) offer 70% in order to rescue its loyal customer base. I can assure you they will not be out of pocket. However, by offering a pitiful 30% they are clearly using this situation to generate additional revenue - which is inexcusable. 

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

Those who are happy with 70% reduction go ahead if they offer it but even if it was 99% I still would not go for it. Simples let me use and enjoy a concept I brought into and not a profit making excercise.

 

U
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

I wish but the share price only dropped by 0.6% yesterday so I don’t think that investors are that worry about the whole thing.

I suspect that’s because it was in the financial statements. We’ve seen some individual investors getting out but perhaps the more corporate investors believe this is part of some great masterplan and Sonos is going to make loads of money now that it’s free of the dead weight of its older products.

I suspect they’re wrong. Unless Sonos have got something pretty impressive in store (which is hard to believe for a company whose software has evolved at a glacier pace for the last decade) the average consumer is not going to go for them when Amazon and Google have cheaper, more featureful and more rapidly evolving offerings.

J

So Sonos still haven’t had the courtesy to send me the email about this change, but fortunately it’s been well publicised elsewhere.

Logging into my account now shows that I have a mix of “legacy” Connect, Connect:Amp and Play 5 Gen 1s as well as many non-“legacy” components.

I understand that 15 year old designs cannot support the newest features, but it’s impossible to believe that they could not allow older devices to at least remain in the same network as newer devices just as “dumb” players of streams from the newer devices.  I can only surmise that the changes are due to either incompetence or deliberate handicapping of older products.

Either way, instead of purchasing more Sonos products and continuing to encourage others to do so, I will be drawing a line under being a Sonos customer.  More open standards which do the same as their original synchronisation USP now exist and, I think this demonstrates, are the future (whether Airplay or the WiFi equivalent standard).

R
Userlevel 2
Badge +1

Please please please just roll me back to version 9.X or something similar where I had lock screen controls and could play from my iphone. It’s all I wanted and all I need. Your “new features” are actually a reduction in features for me. If I could have 9.x with updates for security I would be happy and continue to happily buy. It is a travesty if these perfectly functioning speakers go to landfill because of your greed and selfishness. Or, open source the software for the “legacy” stuff because you aren’t going to make any money out of people upgrading….. just look at all the comments here. 

 

And to those like sambeny asking why people are getting upset and taking action…. please. History shows us that taking action CAN have an impact, but if you passively accept this stuff it will only continue. We HAVE to fight this

B
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

I don’t think that it is hysteria when I have to pay over £700 to keep my system up-to-date with nothing new to show for it. Next it is Play 1 and Play 3 Gen1 that is going to be another £500 from my pocket to keep a system working! It is the reality nothing else and it is not acceptable!

 

Niaccurshi: You just dont get it. So sad.

I’m in exactly the same position as the person you’ve quoted, in fact by the sounds of it even more likely to be struck by future legacy product announcements. But I also understand that the hardware is fine, and that as long as there is a solution to allow streaming of music across from modern systems to legacy systems, that this will mean I won’t have to upgrade or get rid of any of my existing products. That’s the most important news we can get, not some fantastical “70% discount” demands.

You are obviously oblivious to the margins companies such as SONOS work to, as you quote “fantastical “70% discount” demands. The fact is that SONOS could (and should) offer 70% in order to rescue its loyal customer base. I can assure you they will not be out of pocket. However, by offering a pitiful 30% they are clearly using this situation to generate additional revenue - which is inexcusable. 

 

I have money to spend either to upgrade, which I will be forced to do in the future WHEN my legacy hardware stops working with the modern hardware or stops working altogether, so, do you really think I will drop another wheelbarrow full of money into SCAMOS’ lap, or move on to better technology that MIGHT last longer than SCAMOS did. Why beat a DEAD horse.

 

Sonos from leader to loser in 2020.
C
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

Yamaha’s MusicCast seems to be a viable alternative as I plan on moving on from SONOS.  The big advantage is that it has bluetooth built in, so streaming anything is possible to the Yamaha’s even if they decide to stop supporting their “legacy” products.

This website explains how to simply create a whole house audio network out of just bluetooth products and control them all.

While I also like BlueSound, they are pricey.  Yamaha’s RX-485 (a five channel 115 watt amplifier AVR), which has multiple inputs for sources, a stand alone remote should they stop supporting the app, can actually get OTA radio, and is network ready, can be had on Best Buys eBay website for $280 (free shipping).  Considering the SONOS AMP is $455 (yes, that’s AFTER the 30% discount), the Yamaha is looking like an amazing deal.  

Here’s a link to see what the MusicCast app looks like.

Any BlueSound advocates that would like to let me know its advantages over MusicCast, please chime in.  I’m making the switch in a week because I just put my $6,700 worth of SONOS equipment on eBay.

U
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

So the CEO says they will bug fix for as long as possible, after Sonos themselves have already claimed that these devices are too underpowered for that same thing.

Defect fixes and other minor changes can be implemented with no increase in software footprint. New features cannot.

You’re preaching to the choir. I know that. Most of the people who’ve posted on the now 128 pages of complaints on this forum know that. 

The party claiming that old products cannot be patched, at the same feature set and level of capability, to keep them working is Sonos. I literally quoted the statement from the Sonos representative on this forum, and I’ll quote it again:

Sonos will work to maintain the existing experience and conduct bug fixes, but our efforts will ultimately be limited by the lack of memory and processing power of these legacy products.

Note that that sentence is not on the subject of new features, it’s specifically about the ability to maintain the ‘experience’ that we have now.

S
Userlevel 1
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Sonos has a serious problem. The “LEGACY” product announcement is just a symptom.

For almost 15 years, really since the dawn of consumer digital music, Sonos has sold and supported a fantastic platform that did something no one else did nearly as well -audiophile quality home music from multiple sources. Sonos was the only truly open, audiophile-quality digital music platform. The hardware + software bundle was in another league from competitors - and so were the prices (generally 100% higher than next best alternatives). Alot has changed since I bought my first Cr100 controller.

Sonos needs to make money. The market won’t support their premium pricing anymore for hardware sales. People <40 aren’t in the habit of paying cash for electronics. And Sonos really hasn’t ever tapped into monthly subscription revenue. To survive and continue to invest in R&D, Sonos needs to change. Unfortunately the move they took yesterday was the wrong kind of change.

Early and on-going Sonos owners paid a large premium for Sonos hardware they expected to be supported significantly longer than 5 yrs. Regardless of the TOS weasel words, history led them to expect more from Sonos.

I propose Sonos change tack:

Step 1  - revoke the May “LEGACY” deadline. Admit it was a mistake. Make the case that Sonos needs to grow to continue supporting its customers. Remind people there’s no support from a bankrupt company or one that’s absorbed by a FAANG monopolist

Step 2 - re-work the BUSINESS MODEL. Selling high end hardware through limited retail distribution channels isn’t working. Explore options for providing the Sonos experience to (esp younger) consumers as a service rather than a hardware purchase. Partner with a couple mobile phone companies. Let Cell phone networks buy the Sonos hardware and bill consumers monthly. Be creative. Offer entry level hardware (Move + Play 1) as a premium subscription through Spotify, etc.

Step 3 - Provide the Sonos brand evangelists who are your Customers with options:

  1. Trade-in Legacy hardware for New Hardware at no upfront cost. Give them ~3yrs of free use. Then charge them a monthly subscription fee equal to #2 above
  2. Trade-in Legacy Hardware for $ credit that allows you to trade-in 3 connect:amps for 1 New Port device. Seek to gain trial of the new devices from your loyal legacy customers rather than extracting new revenue. Limit to one new trial device
  3. Keep your legacy device but pay monthly software support subscription <$12. If you’ve paid support for 12 months and the device can no longer support Sonos features, be offered upgraded hardware via subscription

The objective is to communicate exciting new options for your loyal Customers, not present them with an ultimatum to PAY or ELSE you’ll be bricked (what current announcement feels like). Most importantly, communicate that Sonos is working hard to solve a real, existential business problem and doing its best to be true to its values and Customers.

 

Sonos needs to act fast or there won’t be a business left to save.

K

In my view, Sonos are making a huge mistake here. There are many people, me included, who have invested a good deal of money in products that we believed would give excellent service for years. That is now obviously not the case. I for one am not going to go down the route of taking up the 30% offer to upgrade parts of my Sonos system. That is just setting things up nicely for Sonos to do exactly the same thing in a few years time with other parts of their system. I would rather get rid of my Sonos products and invest elsewhere.

SHAME ON YOU SONOS. YOU ARE A DISGRACE!!

I
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

Long standing Sonos owner spread across four homes:

  • P5 (gen1) x3
  • P1 x6
  • One x3
  • P3 x4
  • Playbar x 4
  • Beam x2
  • Bridges (x4) 

Two homes are used also as holiday lets and therefore acts as sonos demonstration to the 40 or so families using each home each year. Received many favourable comments from guests using the equipment for the first time.  Far better than trying to evaluate in a noisy retail unit demonstrated by a clueless assistant

 

My profile shows I have updated - my choice -when new desirable features have been introduced eg bedroom Play 3s replaced by Beams and cascaded down to be rear pair for Playbar.  Was happy to do this.

 

However, the key features of Sonos to me are : longevity of products and the ability to group any speakers in any combination.

 

Both these key attributes now appears to be broken.  I’ve been impressed by the development of work-arounds - eg use of Echo Dots to bring voice control to older speakers.

 

Short sighted policy of Sonos with undoubtedly serious consequences.

 

 

E

Patrick...as a long term Sonos customer/ proponent, I was not pleased with the first email received. My system extents from the interior and exterior of my home and I have a quite elaborate system in my pool area and my first concern was the amount of money I have invested in this system. 

 

To offer legacy customers only a 30% discount is a slap in the face!

 

I hope you are rethinking this maneuver and offer a substantial discount to your loyal customers who put you on the map!
 

Regards,

 

Ed Ciano

 

Sent from my iPad


On Jan 23, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Sonos <no-reply@email.sonos.com> wrote:
 

 
 
We heard you. We did not get this right from the start. My apologies for that and I wanted to personally assure you of the path forward:

First, rest assured that come May, when we end new software updates for our legacy products, they will continue to work just as they do today. We are not bricking them, we are not forcing them into obsolescence, and we are not taking anything away. Many of you have invested heavily in your Sonos systems, and we intend to honor that investment for as long as possible. While legacy Sonos products won’t get new software features, we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible. If we run into something core to the experience that can’t be addressed, we’ll work to offer an alternative solution and let you know about any changes you’ll see in your experience.

Secondly, we heard you on the issue of legacy products and modern products not being able to coexist in your home. We are working on a way to split your system so that modern products work together and get the latest features, while legacy products work together and remain in their current state. We’re finalizing details on this plan and will share more in the coming weeks.

While we have a lot of great products and features in the pipeline, we want our customers to upgrade to our latest and greatest products when they’re excited by what the new products offer, not because they feel forced to do so. That’s the intent of the trade up program we launched for our loyal customers.

Thank you for being a Sonos customer. Thank you for taking the time to give us your feedback. I hope that you’ll forgive our misstep, and let us earn back your trust. Without you, Sonos wouldn't exist and we’ll work harder than ever to earn your loyalty every single day.

If you have any further questions please don’t hesitate to contact us.
Sincerely,
Patrick

Patrick Spence
CEO, Sonos
C
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

Yamaha’s MusicCast seems to be a viable alternative as I plan on moving on from SONOS.  The big advantage is that it has bluetooth built in, so streaming anything is possible to the Yamaha’s even if they decide to stop supporting their “legacy” products.

This website explains how to simply create a whole house audio network out of just bluetooth products and control them all.

While I also like BlueSound, they are pricey.  Yamaha’s RX-485 (a five channel 115 watt amplifier AVR), which has multiple inputs for sources, a stand alone remote should they stop supporting the app, can actually get OTA radio, and is network ready, can be had on Best Buys eBay website for $280 (free shipping).  Considering the SONOS AMP is $455 (yes, that’s AFTER the 30% discount), the Yamaha is looking like an amazing deal.  

Here’s a link to see what the MusicCast app looks like.

Any BlueSound advocates that would like to let me know its advantages over MusicCast, please chime in.  I’m making the switch in a week because I just put my $6,700 worth of SONOS equipment on eBay.

Check the Yamaha wifi pe4formance.  I’ve found it to be a bit flaky … 

T
Userlevel 2

PATRICK SPENCE I HOPE YOU ARE READING THESE COMMENTS.

I have used Sonos for 15 years and having moved to a bigger house just spent US$2,500 buying new equipment so it would tie in with my old(er) Sonos equipment. I would not have spent this if I had known what they were about to do. Does anyone know if this is legal - is there any chance of class action? Unbelievable decision and I seriously hope Sonos goes under the control of a management team that understands customers. I also feel like an idiot for recommending Sonos to so many friends over the years. “as long as possible” - THAT IS PATHETIC.

T
Userlevel 2

And in other news, Airbus clarifies its comments on discontinuing support for A380’s saying airlines will be able to continue operating A380’s as long as they are not part of the rest of their fleet. Oh of course this magnanimity is only “for as long as possible”.

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

I propose Sonos change tack:

Step 1  - revoke the May “LEGACY” deadline. Admit it was a mistake. Make the case that Sonos needs to grow to continue supporting its customers.

I entirely agree that SONOS screwed up, but I think they painted themselves into a corner and can’t even do step 1, because they are adamant that older SONOS products don’t have the memory or processing power.  What are they going to do, say “We just fired our head engineer because he didn’t know that the legacy units are more than adequate for future updates.”?
 

When I first bought my SONOS products (some as many as 13 years ago and some just last year), I was shocked that they kept updating them without any additional charges.  I thought there would at least be some type of recurring revenue stream to pay for the programming, say 50¢ per unit you own per month.  OR I thought, why do they add services like DEEZER without getting money from DEEZER (yes, you can look through their financial statements now that they’ve gone public, and they get no money from streaming services, even though those companies are making $10-25 / monthly off of SONOS owners).

I think SONOS had a great idea and never thought about recurring revenues to handle costs.  This CEO is still stuck in the “new hardware sales” mindset.  Reminds me of IBM in the 1980’s as Microsoft ate their lunch.

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

So the CEO says they will bug fix for as long as possible, after Sonos themselves have already claimed that these devices are too underpowered for that same thing.

Defect fixes and other minor changes can be implemented with no increase in software footprint. New features cannot.

You’re preaching to the choir. I know that. Most of the people who’ve posted on the now 128 pages of complaints on this forum know that.

I doubt it, but one never knows.

The party claiming that old products cannot be patched, at the same feature set and level of capability, to keep them working is Sonos. I literally quoted the statement from the Sonos representative on this forum, and I’ll quote it again:

Sonos will work to maintain the existing experience and conduct bug fixes, but our efforts will ultimately be limited by the lack of memory and processing power of these legacy products.

Note that that sentence is not on the subject of new features, it’s specifically about the ability to maintain the ‘experience’ that we have now.

They’re alluding to scenarios such as Spotify (for example) fundamentally changing the way that its streamed music is served.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
O
Userlevel 3
Badge

Ah….Patrick, Patrick, Patrick…..what an absolute muppet! :wink:

T
Userlevel 2

Also so cynical to do this so soon after Christmas sales. Consumer facing businesses acting with impunity - never ends well.

L
Userlevel 1

People are funny….

There are a lot off used Connect:Amp's coming for sale now in  the Netherlands (40 x since yesterday) for around € 275,00 - 350,00 !!!!

“Hardly ever used, perfect condition, like new!”  But no word about legacy products…..

Wenn asked about it, they tell you it is working perfectly and critical updates will be available. So they all know but are trying to get rid of their legacy product for big money :rolling_eyes:  

This is also bad pr for the Sonos brand!  you have to be a  “specialist” before buying second hand Sonos products. It is becoming an even bigger risk now…..
 

U
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

 

The party claiming that old products cannot be patched, at the same feature set and level of capability, to keep them working is Sonos. I literally quoted the statement from the Sonos representative on this forum, and I’ll quote it again:

Sonos will work to maintain the existing experience and conduct bug fixes, but our efforts will ultimately be limited by the lack of memory and processing power of these legacy products.

Note that that sentence is not on the subject of new features, it’s specifically about the ability to maintain the ‘experience’ that we have now.

They’re alluding to scenarios such as Spotify (for example) fundamentally changing the way that its streamed music is served.

That's a big assumption that you’re able to make precisely because the CEO statement is so wooly, and I believe this takes us back to the point I made in my first reply to you - Sonos have done nothing to justify the benefit of the doubt in anything they say at this point.

Unless they make a concrete commitment to something specific then it is naivety to assume they’re planning to deliver more than the minimum they can get away with to make this fuss die down. 

For example - they’re still saying you need to split your system in to two! This is complete, total gibberish. The functionality to play synchronised multi-room audio is the most core of all of Sonos’ features - everything they've ever sold can do this, and the problem hasn't got any more complex in the mean time.

Let's say that Spotify make the hypothetical fundamental change you refer to. So what? So one of my more capable units has to decode the stream and I have to group my older kit with it to be able to play it. No problem with that AT ALL. If that's what they’d announced nobody would have raised more than a grumble.

Note - THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ALREADY DO FOR THE AIRPLAY/NON-AIRPLAY UNITS.

L
Userlevel 3

Look at reviews on places like trustpilot - this is deservedly playing very badly…

pages of negative comment on this forum from deeply upset former giant fans of the company and their products- like me

 yet no response -Absolute  silence - from Sonos... 

They need to step in quickly to stop this self inflicted damage destroying what was once a great brand... 

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