The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

I’ve never ran inputs that have variable output gain at 100% as a matter of course. It normally leads to signal distortion when using the max capable output that a given device can handle/provide. I’ve no direct experience with Echo devices and this is just old rule of thumb for my part, but I’d wager the signal is cleaner when backed off. Might not be true here for plenty of reasons I’m not aware of.

@chickentender : I doubt this applies to things like Alexa app. And it definitely does not apply to the Connect/Port - indeed that one has a fixed output level option in it, where it is always at 100%.

As do almost all CD players, by the way.

The discussion goes back to digital volume controls and the way they function.  And this was primarily an issue with 16 bit volume controls I believe that are less theoretically relevant these days.  But even if you are 100 percent correct it still is likely the reason why his output is much lower.  If there are two volume controls in the chain they will add together.  He is attenuating ten percent of the signal before it gets to the preamp.

Now he may choose to use 90 percent on the app (for real or imagined sound preferences) but then the preamp will have to be turned up higher for the same overall volume.  His concernvseemed to be that his volume knob on the preamp has to be much higher with the echo than other devices.

Echo Link on the way to see if it plays (pun intended) nicer than Inputs or Dots. Appreciate the commentary on it.  Will experiment with Link-out/receiver-in digital and analog options.  Dots going back, swap out for Echo Link on sunk cost and additional other credits. Will hold on to one Echo Input and test with Connect Amp Line-In once the Echo Link is going, thus allowing preservation of the legacy Connect Amp. Reports follow on completion of trials.

We still love the Sonos functionality here, particularly alarm features that let user select source, e.g. TuneIn station or Sirius XM.  Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both.  Larger question remains about preferred echosystem: Sonos, Echo, or both(yikes).

Spoke to Anthem today about Echo low input experience here, and rep reported it ought to work.  Nothing special about their receivers/inputs that would explain my observation.  He reported he personally had similar set up. He spontaneously speculated low voltage output from Echo, but had no direct experience while passing along reported-here advice to ensure Echo device and Alexa apps be set at high end of output/volume.  Further, they reported no adverse effect on receiver by running it at high volume to accommodate my low Echo Input/Dot experience.

Did you turn the volume on the Alexa app from 90 percent to 100 percent.  I believe this will fix your issue regardless of what echo device you choose.

There are plenty of hidden features in the Alexa app, so be sure to explore fully. Plus, there are differences in the app for phones v that for computers. The former has many more features, but the one for computers has a few things that the one for phones does not have. So worth exploring both.

I often use the app commands to drive my wired to Sonos devices, voice is often not appropriate. And during parties I hit the mic off button on the Echo to stop Alexa from thinking that people are calling her and then interjecting with weird comments across the grouped zones. That works fine, and shuts her up. Whether Amazon continues to listen in or not, I haven’t the time to care. No one is plotting the next bombing at my parties, and if Amazon want add to its servers one more banal set of conversations to billions others, they are welcome to do that.

Spending some time on the other threads keep delivering interesting insights:

Spence said this in July 2018, on the record: “what we have done is made those products better every year through the software updates that you get, which really are included in the purchase price that you paid up front." His exact words.

Now, Sonos also has sold to me, as to the rest of the world, a whole house system.

But now they are telling me that for that to survive, I need to keep my 3 legacy products and 4 modern products in legacy system mode, where the modern products will no longer get better - something that per Spence, I have already paid for.

So, the logical conclusion from the above is that I am due some refund from Sonos on my four play 1 units and one Sub which will remain in legacy system mode and not get better although Sonos has collected the money to make them better. Because unless they remain in that mode, my whole house system that continued to be sold to me as such when I bought the play 1 units and the Sub, will not work as such.

Over to @Ryan S for a response or rebuttal.

Equally interesting is the response from the usual suspects defending Sonos in this instance as well

The device I envisioned would have no line outs or other audio outputs - all comms with (legacy) Sonos devices would be over the network.

Therefore, you could not use it with “your choice of third party speakers”, only with Sonos devices.

For Sonos to sell a cheap Port type device, they simply have to allow it to work only with Sonos products - which then should be dumb speakers. 

Yes, that’s the idea. Allowing the formerly smart speakers to live on as good sounding networked speakers having had the smart and streaming functionality off-boarded to new, inexpensive (less-durable) modules.

Amazon and Google can sell similar at cost - or even below cost - because they do not need the top line from these products. Sonos does not have that luxury.

The opportunity for Sonos is to disaggregate their expensive smart speakers physically - replaceable smart modules sold at or below cost, docked into speakers that sound as good as they do today, like the old iPod dock speakers, but with proprietary comms. Then the Sonos smart module can be replaced every 3-4 years even, while the speakers can be built for decades of service required by their higher price points.

They could indeed take that approach for new models, but not past or present, hence the approach outlined above, delivering on that philosophy but for legacy and current devices.

@Kumar, is this the response you find interesting?

https://en.community.sonos.com/components-228996/i-have-traded-up-my-legacy-sonos-5-believeing-that-it-would-soon-be-inoperable-what-now-6836720/index2.html#post16403189

I was under the impression that this was the “pragmatic” thread. Due respect to all, but it’s drifting back toward the swirling tempest.

Second star to the right and straight on ‘til morning.

 

Progress (modest) report:

100% (up from 90%) Echo Dot volume brought modest improvement in reported output, but not where we want it to be.  No distortion observed. 

Methods:
Echo Link optical output Toslink connect to receiver third optical input (new).
ZP-90 optical output Toslink connect to receiver first optical input (existing).
Compare Echo Dot analog output to Echo Link optical output.
Link and ZP-90 source volumes set (via app) at both half and full scale.
Two streams tested:  1) TuneIn, local FM station selected; 2) Sirius XM Loft channel.
Amazon Music not yet tested.
Baseline: no changes to receiver volume setting, all scenarios.

Observations: (YMMV, IMHO)
Two adult listeners who love our music, thus argue both not professionals, not novices. No known hearing deficits.
Streams via Sonos louder, cleaner, crisper, relatively unmuddled. They are what we expect from our music.
Streams via Echo Link less: loud, clean, crisp, muddled. They are not up to our expectations, but it works alright.
Echo Link volume increase necessary to achieve comparable listening level: 10-20% subjective.
Unknown if quality of streams via each source/device are different. We definitely can detect a difference. Does anyone factually know if different?
Unknown if difference can be attributed to device, stream, both or other factors.
Using sources above, Echo Link optical output above sounds better than Echo Dot analog output (no surprise here).

Thoughts (Ready, fire, aim with yours begging indulgence):
Streaming based, Sonos wins hands down, clearly superior.
No trials NAS music library: Sonos vs Echo MyMedia skill.
Stick with Echo Link on preference over Dot and other app features.
Echo could save opted-in legacy Sonos hardware, so far....
Plan to go with legacy mode Sonos based on what we know now.
Sonos performs and has features we prefer; plenty still to learn about  Echo app.
Echo streams:  Disappointing for us. Step it up.
Unfortunate the Connect Amp has no optical input.

Opining:
Is a second ecosystem or Sonos trade-up worth it?  Need to get more data on the table before more $$$ spent.  If no financial constraint on facts known so far: Sonos it is.  Our past Sonos upgrades have been used to expand our system thru wider deployment.  We'd contract deployment to retain music listening we expect, i.e. let the Play5s go in less-used bedrooms rooms where they live now.  Keep whatever we can alive in the public areas. Later consider Play Ones.

Hey Sonos:  (have at Ryan!)
Three requests, if not already available: 

Can I get discount on new Play Ones to replace Play 5s? 

Whatever you can tell us about PlayBar and PlayBase (and other) obsolete schedule is welcome and serves transparency having not gotten it wrong from the start.

Can you step-up and puuhhlease do a plug-in device rendering the Play5s, ZP-90s, Connect Amps (in my case) dumb with the device handling the hard work?  Holy Heifers Batman, JUST DO IT!!  I'll speculate it serves well: your Brand, your customer allegiance and respect, less mass to recycling and/or landfill.

Thank you. End rant.

Agreed, nudge noted. I have decided to stop posting on every thread other than this one and its companion. It isn't worth the effort, and I can still get my daily dose of entertainment in lurking mode there, from posters on either side of the divide. 

Moving on: over on the advanced thread, if the stupid spam filter will let me show it, there is an interesting conversation with @castalla under way on how to get the Echo Show to stream from local media with album art. It sounds intriguing enough to motivate me to get the Raspberry Pi and learn how to get it to sing and dance. Discussions have been via PM because the spam filter butted in, I will see if I can capture those and post them in the Advanced Approaches thread.

Relevant for this thread is the realisation that the Echo Show need not be wire tethered to the Line In - I think it has BT out capability and if so, it can wirelessly stream to a receiver wired to the Line In jacks. BT is also getting better, and can be useful where it isn’t being done from a phone and being interrupted by it. 

PS: I see that Ryan has restored the filter snagged posts; I have therefore had to copy only the last PM exchange.

@train nerd - I have not found any SQ issues with Echo show wired via Line In. I admit that I have not spent any time looking for perhaps subtle differences by taking the room ambient noise floor to below what it is at even my quietest times to catch these, and also have not done any back and forth to see what I can then catch. Neither do I use monitor quality headphones or speakers to do so. If the music sounds good when I get the sound levels to where I need them to be, and there is no stuttering, I am good to go. In short, I don't use music as a test signal.

It might be pertinent to also note here something that may be relevant to you and useful to others.

Every stereo salesman is taught the “louder sounds better” trick to guide users towards what is to be sold. All it takes is even a small 0.1dB louder for this effect to work in the listeners brain; and the louder music is described using words I will quote from your post above: “ louder, cleaner, crisper, relatively unmuddled” as compared to the music that may be just 0.1dB less loud which sounds, again quoting you: “clean, crisp, muddled”. Although I can’t get how music that is clean and crisp can sound muddled!

And you have been less flowery than the norm - the louder by 0.1dB music is described as “ warm, palpably present, with more rhythm, attack and timing...etc etc etc”. All it takes is 0.1dB. That is how the brain is wired. Of course, the flowery language has to be learned:-).

Which is why controlled blind listening tests need precision level matching - done by instruments, not by human ears.

But the good news is that there is any easy way to get over such differences at home - just give the volume control slider a nudge towards the right.

Just for clarity,  “muddled” is subjective, of course.  Relative to Sonos, the Echo sounded more muddled, with Sonos unmuddled.

I may try using a stereo pair of echo dots with the echo sub in my living room to compare against my pair of play ones.  Before last months announcement I figured I would eventually add a sonos sub to my pair of play ones.  Absolutely not going to consider this anymore.  I have no doubt it won't compete with a sonos play one /sub combo but I can get two dots plus the sub for about the price of a single Sonos one.  Plus I already have the dots around the house so the only new cost would be 129 USD for the sub.  Would stereo dots plus sub compete with a single or even a pair of play ones? Would be interesting to find out.  And yes, Amazon could easily discontinue the dots in the same way but at least the cost of replacement would be substantially lower and I go into this with my eyes wide open about what the company really is.

@MikeOinToronto : Bad idea; there is too much of missing frequencies between Dots and Echo Sub, and the mid range of the Dots sucks - Dots are really not meant for listening to music, except via their line out.

If you want to go down that route, test the regular cylindrical Echo with the Sub. Or, an Echo studio pair.

Because of the replacement risk, I would not go that way, the price point that is vulnerable obsolescence risk then goes too high in my book.

Far better to look for active speakers to run from the Dots - you can get these from USD 100 to USD 10000 or more. Make sure the expensive ones have service support - being dumb, they won't go out of service except via hardware failures.

This thread is starting to wind down, which is understandable - there are only so many pragmatic things that one can do for a music system! I thought that it would now be good time to again bump the post above so that it is easily accessed by folks that chance upon this thread from here on.

Not much has changed to what was written above ten days ago, except the discovery that a split system that has line in jacks on both sides of the split can be made inter operable via a couple of Echo Dots grouped for multi room music via the Alexa app, wired to a line in jack on either side of the split.

On a personal level, what I will be exploring now is how to get my Echo Show to play music from my NAS, with album art as the icing on that cake, that can then be served up to Sonos zones. But conversations around that belong to the companion Advance Approaches thread, where these are presently underway with guidance from @castalla .

This thread may come to life again as May dawns, but for now I will limit my contributions here to answers to implementation questions/new ideas that are not advanced ones.

Thanks Kumar.  You are likely correct.  I think I have been so emotionally invested in this that my rational thought has been messed up. Kind of like grieving it has taken me a while to process what is going on, with various stages of emotion along the way.  So I think from a practical stand point I am going to do nothing.  My play 1s and later connect survived the first round of cuts and they still work great.

I suspect both products will fall in the next round so I will have to then move them to legacy mode.  Then when they no longer function with my streaming service they will be done.  Whether it is in 6 months or six years i have no idea.

If the devices fail from physical causes I will replace them with dumb speaker/amp, cheap streamer/WiFi technology.  At any rate, no new Sonos stuff for me.

Finally I am going to try hard to recognize this as a good lesson for me.  I was very lucky in that I had not followed through with a couple of larger sonos purchases yet.  I figured a pair of play 5s would eventually replace my vintage stereo and a sub would eventually be added to my play ones in the living room.  I am very lucky this announcement came out before I made either of those purchases. Many other Sonos customers were not so lucky.

Finally it has opened my eyes to smart technology as a whole and helped me recognize that there are major drawbacks.  Won't be buying any large appliances that rely on apps or the internet to function.  Will keep my home as dumb as possible and especially will be very cautious about locking into the ecosystem of a specific company.  And I will be discussing this issue with family and friends.  Smart technology for me will be limited to cheap toys.

That is a logical approach to take, once aware of the issue. But I would not dismiss cheap, smart front ends like Dots etc as toys - they are very well engineered and often state of the art.

Assuming you have a good, solid mesh WiFi network in the home, which is quickly becoming a commodity today with 3-packs under $150, the Linkplay system is an inexpensive way to go. They support Amazon Music, Spotify (via Spotify Connect), Qobuz (by far the best integration, including all their “hi rez” offerings), Deezer, Tidal, TuneIn, etc.

https://linkplay.com/

There are dozens of companies using their tech, most prominently Audio Pro, but also third-tier companies like KEiiD, Arylic, OSD Audio, etc. There are dozens of apps based on the Linkplay prototype, but the Audio Pro app is by far the best, and it works with any of the Linkplay-based hardware products.

https://www.arylic.com/

Most of these inexpensive devices do multiroom, and support DLNA, AirPlay 1, Spotify Connect and BlueTooth.

Not a match for Sonos by any means, but lots of low cost options.

Also, the ancient Logitech Media Server (LMS) allows you to integrate all and all of your Chromecast, Sonos (UPnP), DLNA and AirPlay devices into a single system using their pretty nice new Material Design UI.  You won’t get the perfect sync that you get with Sonos, or the TV integration, but… well, you get what you pay for.

Sonos speakers with nice artist/album info via the new LMS Material UI.

Sonos speakers with phone UI on browser. Swipe up/down to control volume. 
 

The MConnect app (free Lite version shown) will play lossless FLAC from your NAS, Qobuz and Tidal to your Sonos, Chromecast and UPnP renderers.  Phone and tablet versions available.  No LMS or any other server required, just the app and your renderers.  Unfortunately, it doesn’t recognize Stereo pairs of Sonos speakers, which gives LMS an edge, though LMS is considerably more complex to implement.

An update here on success on the quoted front, because at USD 5 a year, this solution is definitely both pragmatic and not advanced. Since I was not completely familiar with Mac security and sharing settings, set up needed lots of handholding from @castalla , and some of the gyrations are posted in the companion advanced thread and can be seen there. There were many more via PM/emails:-).

But the solution that is now up and running is one that is very useful, and not just as a post Sonos Brexit thing. It allows NAS music to be commanded by Alexa to start play and where display equipped Echo devices are present, to also display album art. Neither of which is something any Sonos unit can do on its own today, so this vaults a legacy set up to ahead of the present modern unit/system capability. And post Brexit, this functionality just needs Sonos hardware to work via signal sensing and autoplay via Line In jacks, in otherwise dumb mode.

One needs to download the mymedia app to the computer and point it to the NAS location. It then indexes the tracks in its servers, and serves up, from the NAS files, voice commanded songs, albums, or playlists to Echo devices. The computer does need to remain awake, though not in the music play loop, which is direct from NAS to Echo and thence to Sonos Line In. So at sometime I may look to moving the app to a Raspberry device that can replace the desktop computer for this service. For me, that will be an advanced project.