The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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K

 And with two such masters that can group, two dumb Sonos units will play in perfect sync as well. 

 

This now raises in my mind another question about a world without Sonos in it. Suppose that before Sonos went, two line in equipped units, legacy and modern, in a split system, were set to Autoplay on a all units group in its system. Suppose that each unit had a Echo/similar devices wired to it and after being set up in a multi room group, the Echos were ordered to play music. Would music in perfect sync then play from all Sonos units in the two systems? I can’t see why not. 

And then to control which Sonos unit does not do this if any zone is desired to be silent, all it would take is not supplying power to that zone, if Sonos controller apps were also kaput.

PS:just realised that the controller app would have to work, Sonos groups do not survive loss of power.

 

T
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Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

This is really a deficit/fail for me since I have multiple A/V or speaker amps in the house, and it practically limits adoption of Echo "ecosystem".

The current ZP-90 is connected to A/V system via optical-in, and using that to A/V receiver is perfectly fine without having to set volume way higher on A/V receiver.

Maybe a receiver firmware update would fix it since that is long overdue.  Will try that, and explore input options other than AUX, receiver mfg advice/settings. Tale of woe is tiresome pull of HEAVY A/V cabinet away from wall, crawling around, testing, pushing cabinet back.

Anybody have a point of view about whether this could be fixed with Echo device firmware update?

BTW off topic, Dot price decreased $20 ($50 earlier) during Superbowl, overnight from previous day purchase.  Request to Amazon to credit price difference met with separate refusal from four different representatives during my effort to escalate, obviously trying to wear me out (or pad incentive driven representative compensation?) Unfortunate if not pathetic Amazon “resistance is futile” cannot/will not handle gesture of good faith. End rant.

 

K

@train_nerd : Seeing that I am not alone in seeing Dots working fine with Line IN, there are some obvious and simple things to test. 

Take a phone and a Dot and set output levels of both to max. Feed both turn by turn to the same Anthem analogue input jack, Anthem set to usual listening levels. What is the outcome?

Take a external BT speaker with volume controls and input jack - any one will do for this test - and repeat the experiment as with Anthem. What is the outcome?

For all four runs, use the same cable.The principle is there should be only one variable at every comparison.

So, the source to the Dot/zp90 also has to be identical.

PS: the phone may be a bad example - if it is feeding amplified signals suitable for a headphone, this may not be apples to apples with Dot.

What other line level output devices do you have besides the Dot - the zp90? In place of phone in example above, use that.

 

T
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Thanks.  Sony CD player vintage 2005 analog out to same analog AUX input on Anthem MRX710 sounds fine at  volume settings/listen levels atypical of Echo devices.  Maybe there is something happening in receiver I don’t understand, but replacing it is currently not sanctioned and it serves as command central for many other peripheral devices (14 A/V different input options programmed…..)

 

FWIW, purchased Fosi Audio:

TDA7498E 2 Channel Stereo Audio Amplifier Receiver Mini Hi-Fi Class D Integrated Amp for Home Speakers 160W x 2 + 24V Power Supply.

Plan to swap it out for Connect AMP and connect to Echo Input and see what happens.  Will report results on completion of trial.  I was thinking the above amp waaay less expensive (sweat equity/cost/both) than new Connect, and turns out $75 amp (yep, no digital-in) is agnostic input. Grouping via Echo ecosystem to be tested too. They do make an Echo AMP….

 

Intriguing points of view on viability of Line-In on legacy Sonos devices.  Not willing to put mine in (unrecoverable) recycle mode to try it, thinking similarly to those who’ve observed Sonos controller and/or firmware still necessary to make it work. Experience welcomed.

K

Thanks.  Sony CD player vintage 2005 analog out to same analog AUX input on Anthem MRX710 sounds fine at  volume settings/listen levels atypical of Echo devices.  Maybe there is something happening in receiver I don’t understand, but replacing it is currently not sanctioned and it serves as command central for many other peripheral devices (14 A/V different input options programmed…..)

 

There seems to be absolutely no need to change the Anthem - the signal voltages from any streaming source and the Echo Dot out with both volumes set to max will be in same ball park. You won't get the exact same sound levels because the voltages won't be the exact same needed for that, but they should be in each other’s vicinity, needing minor tweaks on the Anthem volume.

BUT, if you are comparing the CD player v Dot, there is the difference between the CD as a source and streaming service standard signal levels that may be contributing to what you are finding - the streaming service also vary in this aspect from one to the next, some sound louder than others at the same volume level setting on your equipment.

An apples to apples comparison necessary to see if the Dot is the culprit will need the comparison unit to be the zp90, playing the same track from the same streaming service to the same socket on the Anthem via the same wire, at the same volume setting on the Anthem, to assess differences in sound levels obtained from the two devices.. Single variable means this.

Note also that if the Anthem volume control has to be turned up compared to where it is able to be for the Sony, even significantly, to compensate for lower voltage at its input jack it does not matter in any way to the Anthem - unless you hear distortion in the music.

K

All the experiments and thinking over things leads to the conclusion that there is no one simple answer to the question of whether in May one should opt for one legacy system or a split system - I do not wish to discuss the third option that Sonos would love for all to choose - trade up all legacy units and have one modern system. The answer as it is to many complex questions - It depends.

In my case, where I have three legacy zones and three play 1 driven modern zones, a legacy option is the best - I don't see that the play 1, with its 64 mb, will get any feature up grades that are ground breaking - assuming here that such are even possible for what is just an audio system. So foregoing those by keeping the play 1 units/Sub in legacy mode is a no brainer IF Sonos keeps its promise to keep these systems working - for months/years and not weeks/months.

Where folks have 1024 mb devices, releasing them to get the all singing all dancing upgrades that Sonos is promising may make sense, sacrificing interoperability with their legacy system - and whether this makes sense or not may also depend on if the two systems can be physically organised to ensure that this sacrifice has minimal impact.

Where people have Line In on both legacy and modern units, again split systems may make sense to the point of being a no brainer, because significant interoperability may also be possible via a two Echo device constructed wired+wireless bridge between the two Sonos systems. With the added gift of album art to both systems - that no Sonos unit in existence today can provide.

T
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Does anyone out there have experience with Echo Link rather than Echo Input or Echo Dot?  The Link appears designed for A/V system use, not so sure for Input or Dot?  (Link price point speaks for itself begging question why would it be allowed to be done more inexpensively…..or am I thinking too hard)

K

The Echo Link has the HiFi kind of features and connectivity options that are needed to convince audiophiles to take it seriously - and believe it or not, the high price is also necessary to convince this lot. 

It was hilarious to see the reactions of this group to the Chromecast Audio puck which delivered as good sound quality as any expensive HiFi streamer did, for a similar price as the Dot. They refused to even contemplate that it could do this because doing so would shatter their carefully built up and cherished world view about what deserves to be called HiFi. Also, by their standards the puck looked like a toy. So, ruled out for that reason too. Basically, it was too cheap.

Buy the higher priced Link only if you need the additional interconnectivity and are susceptible to such influences.

Influences such as these reviews of it, copy/pasted below:

The Echo Link provides the extra juice lacking from the Echo Input or Dot. Those less-expensive options output audio to an audio system, but only through an analog connection. The Echo Link offers a digital connection through Toslink or Digital Coax. It has analog outputs that’s powered by a DAC with a superior dynamic range and total harmonic distortion found in the Input or Dot. It’s an easy way to improve the quality of music from streaming services.

And another bit for the effect this has on how the music sounds:

I added the Onkyo amplifier to the system last year and it made a huge difference to the quality. The music suddenly had more power. The two-channel amp pushes harder than the receiver, and resulted in audio that was more expansive and clear. And at any volume, too. I didn’t know what I was missing. That’s the trick with audio. Most of the time the audio sounds great until it suddenly sounds better. The Echo Link provided me with the same feeling of discovery.

Audiophiles just love this kind of writing. As I said, buy it if it floats your boat as well.

Ken_Griffiths

 

Sorry Ken, there is absolutely no need to remove any posts. Sonos are getting extra sales when people trade up and I’m sure they don’t really care whether the bricked unit is ‘recycled responsibly’or not - it makes not a jot of difference to them.

 

John, it’s the promotion of telling folk to act outside their 'agreement' with Sonos that I’m not in favour of here. The agreement is that the user is given their voucher for a 30% discount off their next Sonos purchase, if they 'responsibly' recycle their legacy product. For Kumar, or anyone else, to tell users to accept the voucher and then keep their deactivated product up and running using the line-in etc. is in my book, not the correct message to send, it’s almost bordering on fraudulently obtaining the voucher, which can be worth many hundreds of pounds/dollars etc in some instances. A huge amount on a worldwide scale.

Even worse than that, is Kumar attempts to justify saying these things to all users here on the basis that he believes Sonos are acting dishonestly and so it’s okay for him and others to behave dishonestly too. Well those are not my 'values' John.. even if what Kumar said we’re true (which they aren’t) two ‘wrongs’ will never make  a 'right’.

I personally think that a much better message to promote is to either trade-up and stick to the agreement to responsibly recycle the equipment (that’s a users choice) or they opt out the trade-up scheme and go for using the line-in option, if that becomes necessary for them to go down that route.

I’m pretty sure the line-in will not work on a traded-up deactivated Sonos product anyway, but that’s beside the point, I think anyone who tries to promote a 'scam' of obtaining Sonos discount vouchers and then trying to workaround the agreement to keep old devices running is not acting in the spirit of what that scheme is intended for.. hence I still see trying to promote such action as bordering on dishonest and such influential posts here should be removed. This is about integrity and initially Kumar was calling for ‘pragmatic' workarounds, which is fair enough .. but such suggested action to step outside the agreement goes far beyond being 'pragmatic'. It’s not the kind of message I would want to pass onto my own children.

K

LOL.

K

 

That’s really where I’m coming from. I consider the pricing of the Port as lying somewhere towards the preposterous end of the spectrum. That’s not because I’m budget-constrained (I’m not, and can buy whatever I like within reason) but simply based on my perception of value (bang for the buck).

I will pay up for quality but the price must represent “value” to me so I have no truck with items whose pricing I perceive as taking the p!55. Pricing that’s circa an order of magnitude > than low-cost streaming devices from Amazon & Google, and even over twice that of something like an Apple TV 4K, certainly falls into that bracket.

 

@RDog : To repeat what I have said elsewhere - Since the Port can work with any product via its output jacks, what’s to stop you from buying a bunch of cheap Ports ( I am sure that the price point of the Port has nothing to do with costs), and using them with your choice of third party speakers? You get all the Sonos functionality, while the Sonos top line is damaged - and even blown out of the water once everyone starts adopting this obvious approach. For Sonos to sell a cheap Port type device, they simply have to allow it to work only with Sonos products - which then should be dumb speakers. 

Amazon and Google can sell similar at cost - or even below cost - because they do not need the top line from these products. Sonos does not have that luxury.

The opportunity for Sonos is to disaggregate their expensive smart speakers physically - replaceable smart modules sold at or below cost, docked into speakers that sound as good as they do today, like the old iPod dock speakers, but with proprietary comms. Then the Sonos smart module can be replaced every 3-4 years even, while the speakers can be built for decades of service required by their higher price points.

K

I voluntarily withdrew from one part of the community last week, permanently. It will be interesting to see if I am either thrown out of the rest of it, or have to myself withdraw from it entirely as I will if a single one of my posts is removed without a prior conversation about that action between Sonos and I.

O
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 .. but such suggested action to step outside the agreement goes far beyond being 'pragmatic'. It’s not the kind of message I would want to pass onto my own children.

Hi Ken,  you should read the actual agreement before you try to use it to cast aspersions on Kumar's ethics and morals. 

The discount is not contingent on physically recycling the product, the discount is solely for putting it in "recycle mode"(ie software bricking it). It's in plain language if you had read it. The  agreemen states that you "should' take it to a recyle Depot or ship it to Sonos. Not that you must, just should.

So to be honest ianal and I don't think you need to be one to understand that attempting to reuse or talking about attempting to reuse these products is totally fine under the TOU.

Ken, how do you feel about Sonos dishonesty about this recycle program? Remember when they told customers over and over that it had nothing to do with obsoleting older products? Did you pass that message on to your children?

Ken_Griffiths

Ken, how do you feel about Sonos dishonesty about this recycle program? Remember when they told customers over and over that it had nothing to do with obsoleting older products? Did you pass that message on to your children?

I gave my children my 2x legacy play:5 pair and I’m sure they will happily continue to use them in their home for a good many years still to come alongside some modern and legacy products that they each own already. I chose to trade-up just my two CR 200 controllers to go to recycling shortly (Kids prefer the mobile App and I have plans for the two vouchers)  ...and so those old controllers will follow in the footsteps of my Sonos Dock and two CR100 controllers (never used those much anyway) 

I’m all for moving forward with technology, rather than standing still and have always tried to build upgrades into the family budget along the way to keep aboard the ever-moving train.

It’s the same thing with mobiles, tablets, white goods, TV’s etc. I see them all as having a limited lifespan and to be clear, in my case, Sonos products have (and still are) exceeding my expectation of their lifespan compared to a good many other things that I have owned and upgraded over the years. 

I have two Sonos Bridge devices to set aside soon too (now in cupboard and originally kept as spare), but have put a Boost in place already - the kids didn’t want those either. My children fully understand that ‘nothing lasts forever’ and that you need to plan ahead for things, rather than waiting till the last minute for things to happen.

jgatie

Why on God’s Big Blue Marble is anyone arguing about using the Line-In on a recycled unit when it has been definitively proven that IT WILL NOT WORK!!??? 

melvimbe

Does anyone out there have experience with Echo Link rather than Echo Input or Echo Dot?  The Link appears designed for A/V system use, not so sure for Input or Dot?  (Link price point speaks for itself begging question why would it be allowed to be done more inexpensively…..or am I thinking too hard)

 

Don’t have a link, but I did take a look at the specs rather closely.  When it first came out, the audio input could not be casted to other Alexa speakers in your home, but it looks like the feature is supported now.  It states that it doesn’t support TV sources, so I assume your audio is buffered to the point where it will be out of sync with any video.  

 

I would say it’s a pretty good idea if you want to build an Alexa multiroom system, and echo speakers are generally good enough for your needs, with a few rooms with full AV receivers and such.  The biggest concern I’d have is that Amazon is really lacking a solution for TV audio.  Yes, your AV receiver can handle that, and then you can switch to the Link’s input for music, but I have to expect that Amazon will come out with a better solution eventually.  They clearly know that video is important.

Danny
K

The Link is a strange animal, because it only seems to exist to make Echo tech palatable to the HiFi set; after all, an Echo Dot can be wired to even a Dynaudio active speaker pair to yield the Dynaudio sound for all the Echo is playing. By voice command or Amazon cast.

But which HiFi user will believe that the DAC in the Dot will be good enough? - sacrilege to even think that, let along blind test it to decide. So, the Link that looks like HiFi kit, to overcome that prejudice, that also exists for the Port by the way - Audiophiles look down on Sonos with the same fervour they look down on Echo. And so I don't think too many Audiophiles will suffer to have even a Link in their set ups. The only buyers will be those that need the additional connectivity options it offers.

There are two big holes in the Amazon portfolio, of which the TV one is being attempted by the Echo Studio with Atmos - I have no idea how well that works. The second hole is NAS play and I suspect that Amazon may decide to not address that bit of the market.

But an Echo Studio Pair starts getting into price points where the same service life issues will start raising their head.

melvimbe

Ken, how do you feel about Sonos dishonesty about this recycle program? Remember when they told customers over and over that it had nothing to do with obsoleting older products? Did you pass that message on to your children?

 

We don’t know exactly when Sonos management decided to embark on this legacy program.  While it seems entirely possible that Sonos had the legacy program all planned out when they initiated the trade up program it’s also possible that they either did not have the legacy decision made yet (not very likely) or there was nothing firm planned.  Perhaps they originally were going to create the legacy program in 2021 and did not think it was wise to announce it over a year in advance.  We know that Sonos recently bought the Snips voice assistant company, and perhaps the integration into Sonos products has changed their production schedule.  

 

Regardless of all that, the announcement of the legacy program was not ideal, and was not as much notice as most customers would want and expect to see for such a change.   Personally, I am waiting to hold judgement until May when more information is available, as well as the months after when other announcements might be made that shed light on the reasoning behind certain decisions.   Or maybe that information never comes.  No one needs to wait for that information though, and can obviously make their own decision about how they want to proceed.

Danny
melvimbe

But which HiFi user will believe that the DAC in the Dot will be good enough? - sacrilege to even think that, let along blind test it to decide. So, the Link that looks like HiFi kit, to overcome that prejudice, that also exists for the Port by the way - Audiophiles look down on Sonos with the same fervour they look down on Echo. And so I don't think too many Audiophiles will suffer to have even a Link in their set ups. The only buyers will be those that need the additional connectivity options it offers.

 

I see two other benefits to the Link.  The more prominent reason is that the you don’t need to have the dot, more importantly, the Alexa microphones, directly wired to your AV system.  As an example, you can have a dot sitting on the table next to your couch, instead of the TV/AV stand across the room..where you might need to shout to be heard.  It provides a necessary wireless separation between the microphone and speaker.  True, you could probably accomplish the same thing with using 2 dots that are properly setup with groups, but it’s not as elegant.

 

The other aspect, and I’m not exactly sure this is in place, but you could use the link to switch inputs (between streaming and line-in) rather than having to use your AV receiver to switch remotes.  It could be that like the playbar and other Sonos products, the devices can automatically switch to the line in sources when audio is detected.  That’s a minor convenience overall I think, but one that tends to go along way in simplifying everyday use.  

Danny
K

The other thing about Amazon - or Google for that matter - is that if in future I am not going to stay in bed with Sonos, it would be silly to jump into bed with either of these in a similar way, exposed in a similar way to their antics. But one cannot wish away their cheap smart front ends because I cannot see any one else being able to make agnostic cheap smart front ends that work as well. So, quality third party speakers with these front ends as and when the existing Sonos hardware dies. Of course, one also hopes that this death is so far into the future that things have changed and even better approaches have become possible.

K

 The more prominent reason is that the you don’t need to have the dot, more importantly, the Alexa microphones, directly wired to your AV system.  As an example, you can have a dot sitting on the table next to your couch, instead of the TV/AV stand across the room..where you might need to shout to be heard. 

I find myself using Amazon cast as much as I use voice commands - except when I am alone and voice does not get embarrassing. So that addresses this issue for me. Spotify Connect too would serve to do this well.

The other neat way of doing voice discreetly is via the Alexa voice remote that can sit next to you, so you don't have to shout across the room to the wired to speaker Dot.

 

chickentender

Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

This is really a deficit/fail for me since I have multiple A/V or speaker amps in the house, and it practically limits adoption of Echo "ecosystem".

The current ZP-90 is connected to A/V system via optical-in, and using that to A/V receiver is perfectly fine without having to set volume way higher on A/V receiver.

Maybe a receiver firmware update would fix it since that is long overdue.  Will try that, and explore input options other than AUX, receiver mfg advice/settings. Tale of woe is tiresome pull of HEAVY A/V cabinet away from wall, crawling around, testing, pushing cabinet back.

Anybody have a point of view about whether this could be fixed with Echo device firmware update?

BTW off topic, Dot price decreased $20 ($50 earlier) during Superbowl, overnight from previous day purchase.  Request to Amazon to credit price difference met with separate refusal from four different representatives during my effort to escalate, obviously trying to wear me out (or pad incentive driven representative compensation?) Unfortunate if not pathetic Amazon “resistance is futile” cannot/will not handle gesture of good faith. End rant.

 

Never having to deal with Amazon customer service more than I already must is reason enough for me to eschew this approach. :) Amongst other reasons. But otherwise, good on you guys for soldiering forward!

M
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Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

 

 

Am I missing something obvious here.  You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent.  Why is this not at 100 percent.

K

@MikeOinToronto : good catch!

K

There is a noticeable dialling down of Sonos presence on this thread. Either on their own, or under orders to do so. Not complaining, we seem to be doing ok without it:-)).

 

 

 

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