Are you able to play your library tracks without going through any ‘network switch’ and simply have the library host connected/wired direct to your router?

You mentioned a ‘drive’ as the host, but what device are you using to host your music library? It’s not currently clear if you are presently accessing your library over SMB, or http?

Sorry. Long day.

I’ve never used a NAS with this system; I have several PCs and I had a drive that was (is) on my main workstation - tons of memory (40 GB) T-7500 desktop. So the T7500 was the host machine with the drive connected to it via USB.

The switches have been in place since day one, so in that sense the system was unchanged. The gateway has four ports but three of the ports are connected to gigabit switches that feed the drops around the house. The fourth port was (is) directly wired to a DVR.

I should add that the two sonos connect units and the T-7500 were all on the same switch; it made sense to me that the machine (T7500 acting as host for the drive) and the two sonos connect units should all be on the same switch (even if the gateway should be able to resolve them being on different switches, I figured why make it more complicated than it needed to be?).

Because there are two units in very different locations the switch seemed like the best way to go, and I could not tie up two of the three available gateway ports with each connect being directly connected to the gateway due to the other computers and computer appliances on the network.

Please keep in mind that none of these issues happened for a long time with the system connected as they are.

I suppose that I could directly connect the two units to the gateway and then fan-out the switches off of one port (they’s sensing switches - Netgear GS108) as one option.

What’s really weird is that I’m 99.9% certain that when I ran either unit from a PC on the network, they never paused. WHat I noticed is that if a queue was playing and then either of us tried to adjust volume, skip a track etc, after that the pause issues would start. I did several tests just to make sure I wasn’t losing my mind and queued up short and insanely long playists to see if THAT might be the issue, and interfacing with the PC-based controller. Long story longer IF I only controlled the Sonos with the PC sonos S1 app the pauses didn’t happen.

I’ve uninstalled Sonos controller from the PCs and reinstalled it, likewise on my phone and that of my girlfriend (both Android), but the problem poersists.

If you store a few .flac tracks from your library on your actual PC hard-drive and index that library, rather than using a separate USB drive, does that have the same problem? Also what happens when you switch off the Firewall and reboot the PC, does that get rid of the problem. Is the PC wired to the switch?

Also just double-check the version of the Netgear GS108 switch, as some versions of that switch are listed on the Sonos incompatible hardware page shown here:

https://support.sonos.com/s/article/41

Hmmm…

I have several GS108 so it’s logical to assume that I have both v1 and v2 variants.

EDIT: I just checked the GS108 variants. The oldest is v3 and the newest is v4, so that doesn’t seem to be the issue. I’m tempted to replace the switch into which the Sonos units and PCs are connected just to try; perhaps the v3 and v4 variants are likewise incompatible but Sonos simply hasn’t checked them to see if the v3 and v4 units are STILL incompatible.

That said, why did it work flawlessly for years? If those switches are indeed truly incompatible would they not have caused this problem from the get-go? I didn’t have this issue for years, but there is one other variable - the size of the library is ever increasing as I am constantly buying CDs and ripping them to flac (north of 48,000). Metadata brings the limit down (I had read - somewhere - that the limit was 2^15 (65,536) but that more metadata means fewer than 65,536 can be handled)..

If a ‘fully compatible’ switch would solve the problem I would be thrilled. I am assuming that replacing ONLY the switch to which the T7500 and both wired units are connected would be enough to get around that switch compatibility issue, that is, I’d only need to replace the one GS108 and leave the others as they are; I’d hate to have to replace the other switches if they are not causing some ‘bad juju’ for the two Connect units, even though they serve other devices (and connect to different LAN ports than the GS108 v3 serving the PCs and Sonos units that connects to the gateway).

As far as an internal drive, I REALLY didn’t want to have to go to that end, mainly because the T7500 has several internal hard drives (of much smaller volume than the 4TB drive that I use for the flac library) and the last time that I tore into that unit was to increase the memory. I really don’t want to have to do that.

QUESTION: I did think about a NAS but I am wondering if anyone out there has two connect units and a single NAS (with GS108v3 / v4 switches in their network) and still has issues. I mean, if a NAS directly tied to the main connect unit has this issue then I can’t see any resolution.

Turning off the firewall and or rebooting does not seem to help. I’ve tried most practical things (I suspect) including a hard reset of the gateway, periodically resetting the switches and so on. Nothing seems to stop this.

Is there a list of known “rock solid” switches anywhere?

Thanks for your help.

Mark

I just noticed the Netgear GS108 switches were incompatible. I would have thought that v3 and v4 would have been included on the list too had they had the same incompatibility issues. So I would not change anything just yet until you can be sure,

My only thoughts of trying some of your library .flac files on your computer drive, was just to eliminate the USB drive connection as perhaps being the cause of the issue… it doesn’t mean losing what you have already - you can simply add a second ‘small’ library to Sonos and see if it behaves any differently.

I understand re the GS108 list, however, I have been singularly underwhelmed with the level of support from Sonos. Thus, I can imagine them not testing the v3 and v4 variants.

Good point re the USB. I actually have a hub but opted to plug the drive directly into one of the six USB ports on the 7500 rather than go through the hub “just in case”. The hub serves the drives that are not used with the sonos system (as well as some peripheral components). I used to have USBDVIEW installed but I need to reinstall it; I had been looking at the various system and app logs via event viewer for USB-related maladies but don’t recall seeing anything amiss via USB.

I’ll download USBDVIEW now and have a look-see.

I did go out and buy a Linksys 8-port gigabit switch as I figured the $45 was a small gamble to make on the odd chance that the Netgear GS108, irrespective of rev level, might be the issue. I have swapped it in for the GS108 that was providing connectivity for the two Sonos Connect and the three PCs onto which Sonos S1 controller is loaded.

Oh, and I also uninstalled and reinstalled S1 controller on all three machines. I have done the same on my android phone as has my girlfriend. To date none of those actions made a difference.

Thanks for taking the time to try and help me out on this. I used to sing the praises of Sonos and the connect but now I no longer do because I don’t want my friends implementing an unreliable streaming device.

I’m on the fence about a NAS. I mean, in general they are great to have, but I truly don’t need a NAS for other purposes, and by the time I were to buy an enclosure and two drives I’d be dropping around $500 on something that I don’t “need” and with no assurance that it would fix this issue. If on the other hand there was ironclad proof that a NAS would stop the problem I’d buy it. However, the way I feel now about sonos is “once bitten twice shy”. Sorry that it’s come to that with sonos. I used to love using these...but now? Not so much.

@immersifi,

I use Netgear NAS boxes here and they don’t cause me an issue, but most of my (now old) library is just ripped to 320 AAC lossy, so can’t say how well things would be with streaming .flac lossless, but others in the community, that I know rip to .flac, haven’t mentioned a problem recently, but most use the S2 App.

I’m also running the S2 App mostly these days.

I would just try a small library of tracks on your PC hard drive and perhaps see what can be learned from that.

I would maybe also check the power-saving settings of the PC to ensure its network connection or external connected drives are not entering some kind of low-power state, from time to time, which might perhaps be interfering with things. 

I think testing tracks stored on the PC HDD will maybe help to eliminate some things to begin with. 

Yep, I’ve visited the parts of the OS to keep the 7500 out of “power saving” or balanced modes. I can’t recall where the “never sleep” option was in the O.S. I’m a recording engineer and not a computer jockey so I have to rely upon the web, forums etc.; it’s been 30+ years since I wrote any assembly code (Zilog Z80), Fortran 77 or anything else to be honest. You would think that with a playlist enqueued there would be little opportunity for a drive to go to sleep what with the frequent I/O (a few minutes’ idle time seems a bit aggressive to put a drive to sleep; 20 minutes, maybe...but less than five?)

As I recall S2 is not compatible with the connect units, so that’s not an option.

I can however copy a bunch of music to one of the internal drives in the 7500 and temporarily point toward that library. However, this will be inconclusive because since the copied files would constitute but a fraction of my library I wouldn’t know if the “fix” were due to a) a smaller library, or b) a drive being directly on the bus and avoiding USB I/O. The ultimate irony here though is that no one from SONOS is trying these things to help a CUSTOMER. I’ll never enter the chat portal again. If I get desperate I’ll call and try to speak with a human at Sonos. 

Even the 65,536 limitation is a cludge in my opinion. I mean, OK, find a way to use a page file-type thing to support a database of 512,000 songs. On that note, wouldn’t it be nice to see just what percentage of database memory had been consumed at any point? I mean, that would tell me quite a bit more than “around 65,000 songs”. Mind you the metadata sitting in the header is like a fly on the a_ _ of an elephant, so I can’t see it lessening the library by all that much.

Thanks again.

Hi @immersifi 

Thanks for your post!

Could you please immediately submit a support diagnostic the next time this happens, and report back here with the number given when convenient? There will hopefully be an error message reported at the time, and the lack of one may even tell us something too.

Thanks!

Thanks for your post!

Could you please immediately submit a support diagnostic the next time this happens, and report back here with the number given when convenient? 

Thank you for the helpful link.

Well, it may be a while as I am headed out of town, but sure...I’ll do this. Again. I did it just about a week ago and no one in chat support could help me; they were not even reading half of what I was saying as indicators, data points and so on. Why they had me mess about with the WiFi settings (when I don’t even use wifi) was beyond me. Whether the wifi is on or off this keeps happening.

I should clarify one thing that I stated erroneously: when I say “pauses playback” I don’t mean that it actually toggles between PLAY and PAUSE. No, it INDICATES that it is playing but playback halts from anywhere between 3 and maybe 7 seconds before it resumes. This is where one would insert the Price is Right sad trombone sound effect...

I *DID* discover one thing that might be salient: I had assumed that when I saw the incompatibility message (with S2) that it was for both of my Connect units. So I did some more digging and found that one my two Connect units (the one in The Subterranean Playground) is NOT S2-compatible (even though the two units seem to be identical, visually) but the Whole Lotta House unit IS compatible with S2 (Whole Lotta House Connect feeds the analog distribution system to the whole house as the name implies). It turns out that SOME connect units work with S2 and some do not. Yikes. That’s a nasty surprise. I believe both units have the same firmware as well. Remember, I’m running S1 because one of the units doesn’t play nice with S2.

Another morsel for you...the unit in The Subterranean Playground doesn’t seem to do this AT ALL. I ran all manner of playlist, short, long, as well as albums on it for days...never one single interruption. Since it’s not compatible with S2 it’s probably safe to say that it’s an older unit while the other Connect is newer (upstairs...the one that saps joy from my very existence) as it is S2-compatible. Strange...newer hardware yet less stable with S1. Apparently.

I never group the units (party mode) because the one unit feeds the analog distribution system in my house, so I use the one unit to have music throughout the house yet pull only one stream from the drive, and I never have to worry about compression being invoked due to net bandwidth Connect issues; the unit in The Subterranean Playground feeds only that space (recording studio / hang space) so basically it only operates with a different queue than that of the other connect, but never are they grouped with the same feed. The interruption happens irrespective of whether one or both units are streaming data from the library.

I thought that maybe the issue was hardware - I use the optical out and thought maybe there’s an issue there but my preamp/processor never loses sync when the pause happens, so the TOSLINK stream is present. Now, whether there’s something upstream of the optical / SPDIF output I can’t say. I didn’t bother to check the analog outs as they logically must be downstream of the DAC while the TOSLINK and SPDIF must be native digital.

It’s ironic. I’ve got two units and the OLDER unit is more reliable running the OLDER control software but the newer one can’t seem to play nice with the older software. Replacing the older S2-incompatible unit with one that IS compatible seems like a big gamble for me, because it sure feels like the newer unit (Whole Lotta House) has a hardware issue. I have spent HOURS and hours on this, and every time that I think I have it sussed I hear the unit interrupt playback and it’s like a dagger to my heart.

Another “fun” anomaly? I could swear that when my girlfriend so much as MOVES her Galaxy S9 phone (after the system has been seemingly stable) the unit temporarily halts playback. We’ve tried everything...logging out, uninstalling the software (phones, PCs) abut that doesn’t get it.

I’ve turned the wireless on and off. No change.

ALL units (PCs and Connect) are on the same switch, which I even dropped $45 on the replace with a Linksys gigabit switch thinking that my Netgear GS108 v3 and v4 units might still be incompatible (as the v1 and v2 variants are)...but after swapping out that switch, the problem persists.

When I return from this trip I will swap the units just to see, but my gut tells me that the one that WAS in the subterranean playground will continue to be stable (the one that’s incompatible with S2) and the other one that’s newer (and S2-compatible) will continue to interrupt playback.

Absolutely maddening. I am already looking for alternatives to the Connect units because I cannot stand having the music halt and then continue when it wants. I’ve pretty much tried everything that I can think of (yes, hard reset on the router as well). I don’t want the unit that hiccups doing that in the subterranean either as those interruptions really kill a vibe in a room.

The last ditch option will be to remove the unit from the network (temporarily) and see if the problem stops when running S1.

So disappointing.

I tried creating this as a new post but apparently there were issues with it; I can’t seem to find it.

Anyway...PROBLEM SOLVED!

See below:

OK,

At the end of this post I will list (or try to) everything that I did before arriving at a solution. Hopefully, this  list will help save time for you, the reader, should you be having a similar issue.

THE PROBLEM REVISITED:

In a nutshell, the unit works fine when using a streaming service (Amazon Prime music etc), however, when streaming from my flac library the unit experiences what appears to be bufffer underrun (the player(s) act as though they are playing but the sound is absent).

If you grab the track progress bar on the S2 app and move it back into the track by 30 seconds or so the rest of the track is audible (almost always - sometimes it takes two attempts). I have verified with various audio programs (I am a recording engineer) that there is nothing wrong with any of the files on which this problem occurs (and besides, it’s almost never the same track twice).

THE SOLUTION:

There is no solution I have found with S2 and the gen 2 Connect units running, However, what I WAS able to do was to install Plex and Plexamp, and build my music database (IMPORTANT: the Connect et al use on-board memory for a great many things, including storage of the music library database. However, Plex creates and stores the database on the server rather than the client. This means that the Sonos-suggested limit of 65,000 songs no longer matters - I suspect I could have twice or three times the number of tracks (I’m in the 50,000 range) that I now have and still, the database would be OK. I guess we’ll see about that.

I digress...so I set up Plex Servers on two machines and Plexamp on all machines of interest. Guess what?

Not one single track ever experiences what I was observing with either / both of the Sonos units when streaming flac music from a share.running under S2. Yep, zero instances of buffer underrun. None. Zilch. Nada. With the CONNECT units I might have one, five, or ten songs hiccup as described.

IRONY:

Plexamp can see and yes, even operate the CONNECT units; they show up as players in the list. I was initially psyched because I thought “cool, I get to run S2 as I have...surely PLex will fix the issue within the CONNECT units”. However, whether I run the CONNECT units from S2 OR from Plex, the buffer underrun happens. Persistently

Running Plex server and Plexamp UI? The problem never persists; I merely pointed my two servers to local copies of the flac library (and gave each a few hours to chunk through all of the metadata).

Even if (in this mode) the Sonos Library Services is not used (which I thought might be the culprit) it appears that it’s something within the S2 app / the firmware on the two Connect units.

Before you assume it’s something wrong with my network, any of the O.S. on my computers, my gateway, or my switches, I assure you that it is not - I even enlisted a certified I.T. specialist to check my network for anomalies. None were found.

I should also mention that yes, the gateway has even been replaced, and all switches are Sonos-approved (NETGEAR GS108 v3 (or higher)). In short, there is nothing wrong.

I even put the CONNECT units, along with the host PC on its own network (facilitated by a stand-alone router) and the bufer underrun problem persisted when using the S2 app. This tells me that the problem is not related to my network; the router that I used was sent to me by Sonos support, so I know that it’s fully compatible with Sonos.

The downside is that Plex will not stream Amazon Music (only Tidal, and I’m not paying for that) so for now, I have to use the Connect units to stream Amazon, but at least with such a stream the buffer underrun problem never (and I do mean never) occurs - it’s only with the flac library.

NOTE: If you look at the event viewer log in Windows you can see that the sonos library service throws an error whenever the buffer underrun occurs, as well as when the track is advanced etc. When running the CONNECT units via Plex the Sonos library service throws no errors (because it’s not in use), but the buffer underrun issue persists. Again, when running Plex none of the tracks ever exhibit the error that one or both of the Connect units exhibit.

WHAT WAS TRIED (WITH NO POSITIVE RESULT) BEFORE ARRIVING AT THE CONCLUSION:

1. verified all network switches are sonos-approved
2. replaced the existing GS108 switches with a different vendor’s gigabit switch (money out of pocket)
3. checked every LAN cable for pin-integrity (every cable) whether in the walls, or “jumpers” (from wall to device etc). there are 26 drops in my house and I have checked every.single.cable. no errors.
4. verified that gateway is compatible (and later, gateway was replaced)
5. tried using wifi exclusively with either / both units; tried using LAN only with either / both units
6. operating system on host PC was rebuilt (out of desperation)
7. operating system on two additional PCs rebuilt (still more desperation)
8. flac library temporarily moved from one machine (as host) to the other two to test; sometimes on-chassis, other times as a USB device
9. pcs and CONNECT units placed on one network switch. pcs and CONNECT units spread out between switches (distributed)
10. a smaller version of flac the library (about 25,000 songs) was temporarily used on all three machines
11. updated S2 software (every time prompted)
12. S2 app uninstalled and reinstalled...at least 10 times on three different machines
13. an mp3 “mirror” of my flac library was tried; whether the full library or a truncated version of the library the buffer underrun occurs. attempted on all three machines with te drive as internal or USB
14. problem occurs on CONNECT units with albums, playlists, and at times even individual tracks; problem NEVER occurs when playing Amazon music (web stream) in either / both CONNECT units
15. set sonos library service to auto-restart (3 instances) if an error is generated.
16. I tried running sonos with either or both CONNECT units online (wired or wifi). problem always persisted.
17. the problem never existed while running S1 controller (I ran the connect units for years) but began a short while after the forced S2 rollout
18. originally I had a gen1 CONNECT and a gen 2 CONNECT running under S1, but had to replace my gen 1 unit with a gen 2 unit when S2 was mandated (more out-of-pocket expenditures)
19. This is only a PARTIAL list. I have tried too many things to count (I’m not joking), and each time, in the end, the buffer underrun problem occurs when using S2 and Connect

I do NOT have a NAS as so many have urged me to do, and many out there will wag their fingers at me for this. However, having two Plex servers set up now (one machine with a win 10 / 64 built and a Western Digital USB drive and the other a win 10 / 64 computer with an on-chassis western digital hard drive) has resulted in error-free playback. All three machines machines feature rebuilt operating systems (from several months back)) results in hiccup-free playback, and absolutely zero instances of buffer underrun but ONLY when running Plex. One machine has MANY audio applications on it while the other is just a sort of “bare bones” PC. Whether I stream from either machine, the buffer underrun problem has vanished via Plex but persisted with S2 + CONNECT.

WORTH NOTING: If you are having similar issues you might want to look at the windows event viewer, specifically the WINDOWS LOGS → SYSTEM; I used to see hundreds and hundreds of anomalies whenever I ran S2. Now? I see 5% (maybe) and in fact, I have not seen the sonos library service error since I started to stream my flac files via Plex.

Also, note the APPLICATIONS AND SERVICES LOGS → OPEN SSH → SERVICE, which is the “SonosLibraryServiceLogs”; with S2 running the connect THIS error is like a rash all over the log:

Error writing full file to output stream: The I/O operation has been aborted because of either a thread exit or an application request

Absolutely every time the buffer under-run happens, this error is generated in the log. It is also generated when one interacts with track progress etc.

OK, IT WORKS...BUT WHAT’S THE DOWN-SIDE?

I don’t like everything in the Plex UI.

That said, it plays music. Reliably. Always...from my flac library (the same one that I have maintained for years)...sitting on an internal SATA drive on a ten year-old machine (no expensive NAS etc...just a lowly SATA drive). While I’m not anti-NAS (I DO undertsand their utility) I refused to buy a NAS a “test solution” on principle; Sonos is ostensibly sold as a system that can find all of your music on whichever devices it happens to reside. If a NAS a required for reliable operation in all cases, then it should be sold as such (i.e. not sold “asterisk-free”).

That said, I am somewhat of a unique position in that I have main and “spare” computers that act as clients (and yes, you can even stream to your phone if you wish). This means that the computers supplant the CONNECT units when I want to play tracks, albums, or playlists from the app - at least for tracks from my flac library. Regrettably, Plex doesn’t support Amazon so for now I’ll use the CONNECT units when I want to stream from the web.

HOWEVER, this also means that the three computers replacing the CONNECT units need (for guaranteed good signal to noise ratio) their own audio interfaces. I use one very simple one (a ten year old Lexicon low-budget Alpha interface on my T5500 computer), a nicer and slightly more modern Roland Quad Capture USB, and on the third, I use a TASCAM US1800 interface (that I use in my recording space (where I track clients’ work as well as my podcast)). These analog signals are what’s sent to my whole-house balanced analog transmission system (I pulled the lines years ago upon purchasing my present home), or down to the critical listening space.

So, I am fortunate in that I hold onto things like old(er) computers and associated audio gear, but truthfully, my only out-of-pocket expense for the Plex solution is the monthly fee (I paid for the first month to evaluate if the problem could be fixed (and it HAS been fixed) but I will likely buy a lifetime license if this performance stability persists). That said, you can buy those small form-factor PCs these days for a few hundred dollars (not more) that would be sufficient as CONNECT replacements. However, the CONNECT was envisioned as something for people not wanting to deal with network issues etc.

Is this a solution for you? I can’t say. I only arrived at this point because I was absolutely desperate to fix the problem, and thus far (and still) S2 + CONNECT has this buffer underrun problem that appears to have no solution.

CLOSING REMARKS:

I know there are going to be haters out there.

Please don’t say unkind things about me or my troubleshooting skills. I have perused countless threads, spoken with tech support, submitted numerous diagnostic logs...I have fought this battle for over a year, at least, and absolutely nothing that I have done has fixed it. I bought the CONNECT units because I liked them, and indeed, under S1 (and for a short while under S2) they were so, so reliable - and I LOVE the UI in S2. I genuinely do, but I am getting used to the quirks in Plex.

NAS...I know, more elegant. I agree, That said, a) I don’t have a NAS and everything now runs flawlessly under Plex (like it USED to under S1, and for a while, under S2), b) the system is sold as not requiring a NAS. I just can’t see spending money on a NAS to *potentially* fix the problem when in fact the CONNECT was marketed as being able to assimilate all of one’s music on any (shared) drive. I’ve already spent money on new hardware in an attempt to fix it, and I am not exactly keen on spending money on a NAS when it may not fix the issue. Again, if it DOES, then Sonos are obligated to state “...able to find all music on your machines (note: playback consistency is not guaranteed without use of a NAS)”. To me, that’s fair.
 

As I have stated elsewhere, were Sonos willing to send me a NAS with at least 4TB of storage I would have been willing to try it, but the number of hours I have tried to painstakingly diagnose and remedy the fault got to be too much; when the car you drive keeps breaking down by the side of the road, eventually you just have to buy a new car. Fortunately, for me, I had the additional computers and sound cards sitting around (and yes, in use), so this feels like getting a few used cars rather than two new cars. Mind you, had Sonos said “this type of NAS with this type of drive is GUARANTEED to fix the issue” but I never got that - instead I did get a fair bit of push-back (in the forums) from people more interested in telling me “just get a NAS...I never have problems” rather than helping to work through the isuse. That said, some of the people in the forum were EXTREMELY helpful at various stages of troubleshooting, and I sincerely thank all who tried to get me to a solution.

As it stands? I once more can play albums, playlists, tracks, etc, and not have the music unexpectedly cut out due to buffer underrun.

This “feels” to me like as Sonos have elected t add features these have come at the cost of core functionality. Remember, there’s only so much memory in these units, and less-than-tight code eats up memory as do added commands and instances in the software (and subsequent firmware updates) 

All that I know is this:

I am now able to play whatever I want from my flac library as I had done for years with S1, and for a while, with S2. It’s a pity that the functionality couldn’t last.

Regrettably, playback of the flac library can’t be reliable via the CONNECT units (whether I drive them with S2 or with Plexamp). Just as with Sonos I can control them from any PC, any phone, and my tablet. As long as I refrain from using the CONNECT units for playback the music no longer goes silent toward the end of a track (computer-based playback is required, rather than a computer-appliance (CONNECT).

Have I missed something? Quite possibly, but I grew weary of having the music cut off, especially during parties and such - total buzz kill.

Was the swap to Plex necessary? Maybe not. Maybe I missed something. Maybe. However, what I now have is something that works as it is supposed to; S2 and CONNECT have driven me crazy, and that well has run dry.

Will it continue to be stable into the future? Who knows? For now, I’ll keep using the alternative to S2 + CONNECT.