End of Software Support - Clarifications

Not much new, but some interesting tidbits. Not sure if it was already posted here:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/29/heres-why-sonos-customers-were-angry-about-plans-t.aspx

Certainly so. I don't deny this is a watershed moment for Sonos. They’re a canary deep down the coal mine right now.

I want to go further to address the additional disparity between definitions of “SUPPORT” here, many that seem to extend all the way down to “ABLE TO USE AT ALL”. They are not the same thing.

(Even though I was harsh on analogies a bit ago, I’m going to use one.)
Take the auto industry. Liken “support” to “under warranty”. You can expect your car to receive product recalls and certain amounts of maintenance from the manufacturer, including all the perks the car salesman rattled off and you looked at on a sheet of paper and on screen when you got home. These days you get enrolled into a myriad of other tech plans as well; remote start features via apps or roadside service at a button-touch within the car. All of these services eventually run out. You eventually pay for them separately, but the car still runs. As support fades, you’re responsible for keeping it on the road and you accept that some things aren’t worth it and you let those features fade away, but you still drive the car and have it serviced out-of-pocket. 

And liken to if you wish, anything you’ve added after purchase to that car’s “system” (though in many cases, depending what it is it may void your warranty) by way of performance upgrades, a new stereo, accessories in the cabin, a hot set of wheels and/or winter tires, etc. etc. Many of those additions can be transferred to a new car, under warranty, when you choose to move on. Or you can part with them when sell the car and include them, not adding much value in many cases but attractive additions for the new buyer. You certainly won't recoup all that initial outlay of expensive or even close to it.

This analogy sucks. In many ways. I know that. No analogy truly works. Many will try and pick this one apart and I will largely agree with them. I’m just making it to illustrate that no one really questions that auto industry reality and haven’t for decades. This IoT realm is all new. Whether this was planned by Sonos or not doesn’t really matter to me, not pragmatically. The software is not the hardware and never will be. Proceed accordingly, in spite of the marketing and the new car “amazing warranty” features sales pitch. If you feel irreparably burned by Dodge, buy a Volkswagen or ride a bike. 

(edit: and I know what’s coming.
“Sonos didn’t tell me when my warranty was to run out”.
I know. That’s the problem. That’s the source of the anger. That’s the naivety. That’s the “new” information and IoT enlightenment and I’d wager it will all change in the near future.)

As you say,  analogies are difficult to postulate.  But I’m failing to see you point on this one.  Your car warranty example I think is a perfect example of the point I was trying to make before.  After warranty,  I can choose to maintain it myself or trade up to a new car.  I will have many avenues to get the help and parts to keep it on the road as long as I like.  The auto manufacturer does not have the ability to pressure me into a new car if I don’t want.  If that were the case,  there would be no auto transportation available in Cuba.

To reiterate my words,  “Functionality of the system at any equipment age should not be affected if the customer does not wish to progress to the next technological level.”

That is what Sonos has reiterated they will try to accomodate for those remaining within a legacy framework. To what degree that succeeds is a complete unknown at this point. But again, it's interconnected; the hardware is not the software but the two are linked. This is all new.

To the auto industry analogy, you can choose to replace the integrated (eventual) Amazon Music API failure with a “part” from a 3rd party manufacturer as it were. (And further, Amazon and others are already 3rd party capability to the “car” itself, e.g. warranty & support comes into clear focus if you replace a stock header on a Subaru with one from Borla - you get more performance but it’s additional outlay and if something goes wrong Subaru isn’t the one to address the concern to, but Borla). One thing Sonos has said, multiple times, is indeed that the core operation of the system, e.g. grouping zones and playing music served from a personal library is the thing least likely to be affected at all over time. The wheels will still turn. The car will still start. But your car is ineligible for navigation system upgrades and newest brake caliper design does not apply. But you can fit it out 3rd party or DIY. You can attach a Chromecast to a line-in. Or buy Garmin nav system. Again, this analogy is terribly insufficient.

I’m not interested in debate. Many have strong feelings that are largely justified. I just wanted to share my more measured thoughts as they’ve coalesced in the that past week or so. They’re very different my own initial reactions. Cheers.

I bought my Sonos Connect from Amazon four months ago. In fact, Amazon is still selling them, brand new. 

Don’t tell me Sonos stopped selling this product over five years ago. Even if you stopped selling them directly on your own website, Amazon is still getting its stock from somewhere.

Your commitment means nothing. How about if I send you my Connect, less than four months old, and you give me credit for the FULL VALUE toward a product that will still work?

Oh yeah, you won’t.  Because you are a fraud.

@Winter S, if you purchased a Connect brand new that recently it shouldn’t be legacy. Any Connect still for sale from an official reseller should be 2015 version of the Connect which has some updated specs and is not a legacy product. In May, when the older version of the Connect becomes legacy, the 2015 Connect will continue on as a modern device. To check if you have a legacy device, you can go to your account page here: https://www.sonos.com/myaccount/system/households/devices/

There are multiple products with the same name? That wasn’t clear from the notification I read. Adding to the confusion, I have received several Emails from Sonos urging me to trade up this product, even though I just bought it. Thanks for the clarification -- I’ll check my account but I’m done with Sonos over this whole incident, regardless.

Why are there 125 pages when yesterday there was over 170?

Ryan,

isn’t this part of the problem? Sonos never informed customers of changes to the internals of the products. Why would I think that a Connect bought in 2016, even assuming that Sonos has perfect inventory management, would be any different than one bought in 2014? or for that matter why would a store feel the need to clear out their older inventory before putting the new shipment on the floor?

The fact is that I suspect that Sonos has been happy to continue selling the “same” product for years as it reinforced much of the messaging that it continues to deliver to this day (Everything works together…, Start with one speaker...). Consumers are reassured about slowly expanding their network when they see the product bought 10 years ago is still being sold without knowing that maintaining the outer shell was actually a bait and switch.

I feel like a fool who believed that Sonos would actually stand by its words. At this point I have started to move away from the Sonos ecosystem and will likely never come back. I returned 2 play 1s, am selling a Connect, will try to sell another Connect and a Connect:Amp, and will soon be selling one of my playbars and subs because I replaced my Sonos home theater setup with a Denon amp with Heos support. At this stage I will still hold on to my Gen 1 Play 5s but I am continuing to debate even that. While I can’t be sure how long Denon and Marantz will continue to support the platform, I am getting better sound, for less money, and I know that I will always be able to use it in that room (can’t be sure how long the playbar will be able to work with the Play 3s that I use as surround speakers). I may also experiment with other platforms as the opportunity arises. I would not have even considered this 2 weeks ago.

I am getting over the anger I feel but not the disappointment. A clear message could have gone a long way to addressing what I feel but I don't see one coming and don’t even believe that whatever is said or done in May will help, it will be too little too late.

I will get back whatever money I can on the used market and will deal with the few pieces I decide to keep while I gradually switch over to another platform. The odds are that I will end up with a legacy system and I hope it doesn’t die quickly but I have little to no confidence at this point that Sonos will do anything to delay the demise of legacy components.

I have been spending a lot of time on this as I was holding out hope that some new information would emerge. I’ve been slowly taking a step back and will continue to do so.

Yes to hear comparisons to cellphones or laptops is quite silly. I would think that cellphones are in the vast majority purchased on a contract plan with monthly payments or a device payment plan or leased at least in the US. To equip your house throughout is mostly (could be wrong) done over time. I thought this was one SONOS selling point. Even on your oldest smartphone you still can still use the functions it came originally the older networks still function. Old computers are still able to communicate with the latest generation and there are many more examples. 

Just wanted to share this link, (relating to bolded above) posted by @Cisume in another thread. The article now seem very prescient and topical when reading over it now. Clearly foresight was in place. Arguably not enough, but how is that measured, and frankly I’m now surprised it’s taken this long to arrive where we are with Sonos considering the initial design philosophy. 
https://www.eetimes.com/under-the-hood-sonos-brings-multi-zone-digital-audio-to-life/#

Perhaps you had the number of replies per page shortened to 10 per page instead of the standard 25 posts per page, there weren’t 170 pages yesterday. Currently, including all deleted posts that have been made this thread, we’re only at about 3130 total messages, which is just over 25 full pages of 25.

We learned from that confusion and have since added versions to the units that received proper refreshes after then. For example, the Sonos One gen2 came out quicker than our standard refresh cycle, and since it was a computing upgrade, we added the Gen2 to make sure people would know. There’s nothing Gen1 can’t do right now that you’d notice, but we wanted people to be aware that there is a new version. 

Under the current plan why would anyone with a majority  of legacy devices upgrade any equipment now? If I was a person that had my whole house currently set up of mostly legacy equipment all incentives to buy new is gone. I would actually be looking to sell any modern equipment and looking to replace or add more legacy on the cheap from all the people trying to unload.  Run the legacy as long as it lasts, I expect a couple more years before major service losses, and then replace the whole setup with something new. Most likely not Sonos.  

But if they could keep the legacy working (grouping) with the modern equipment, just froze at current firmware I might slowly over time replace individual pieces of equipment with modern stuff. Maybe some of the stuff that they come out with now that the limitation of the older equipment is gone would be worth it to me to upgrade. I would be able to do it a piece at a time picking what rooms I needed the new functions in first, and at a pace I could afford. 

I promised myself I was done looking at this thread and commenting but after checking out this link I think I just stumbled on something very interesting, after reading the initial story I scrolled down to an earlier story saw this:- 

“

Sonos sought to meet the challenge when it partnered with IKEA to have its speaker technology included in some of the Swedish furniture maker's products, like a lamp and wall shelf. Offering dual functionality, a sleek design, and an affordable price seems to be a good combination and demand has been reportedly robust.

It followed that bit of smart marketing with a rental program to allow cash-starved audiophiles rent a speaker package for a low monthly cost, but be guaranteed software updates and hardware upgrades when they became available. Although it's only currently being offered in the Netherlands, it seems likely this option could prove very popular, which would allow it to eventually be expanded into more countries.

Why cant I help thinking the content of the second paragraph could be linked to the Momentus May announcement!!!  I can see it now
 

Hey kids we’re  sorry we got it wrong and we love you all so very dearly were willing to offer you not 30%, not 40%, not even 50% trade in but, a whole year free rental of one of our Super New Sonos Speakers for Life.Thats right folks for a downpayent of only £/$399.95 we’ll give you a whole 12months free rental/lease and guarantee you hardware and software updates for life, that’s right folks, for life. All you’ll need to do is guarantee to sign up for a 24month contract and we’ll send you your shiny new speaker by return. (Normal rental/lease of £/$49.99 applies after 12 month free offer period)

Well its food for thought……...

To be fair and accurate, functionality within Sonos has always been a moving target, which was always addressed and part of the appeal of the system….  in some ways now detriment to it in many cases, but not the detriment it could be.

e.g. When I first invested in Sonos, there was no voice integration, there was no Airplay2 capability, there wasn’t even Pandora Premium integration within or without the Sonos controller - Pandora Premium didn’t even exist. Nor did Tidal in its current form. Nor did Amazon Music. Or PLEX in its current form…. the list goes on. 

If I leave my system as legacy TODAY, all those improvements/integrations are mine to keep (along with the initial core functions of zone-grouping and personal library playback) for as long as those integrations remain unchanged by the parties that control them…  and none of those mentioned were functions that my system came and functioned with originally.

I know it’s bad form to reply to myself but I wanted to share this link, I was taking the mick But a quick google search popped this up! Think I just saw the future……

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7547409/Sonos-letting-customers-rent-speakers-16-month-service-expand-worldwide.html

Yes they added functionality but removed some as well. Somebody in an earlier post listed all those which disappeared. Like the System management that was removed from the desktop app ( would like to know the reason why ) and you need a mobile app now for it. If you want to add a device you need the latest mobile OS version because on the older ones this function is now disabled. if you have newer systems they are usually backward compatible to the predecessor(s). I’m going to lock my installation at the version of no return.

This is sad news even with the updated noted from the New CEO.  I am not certain that this isn't some ways a cash grab with this measly upgrade offer (by the way not really a 30% discount since Costco offers many of Sonos speakers below retail).  Pressure of now being a publicly traded company?  How on earth could I go out and spend over $2000.00 dollars (even with the trade in discount) to upgrade my perfectly fine 6 Sonos “Legacy” components that I have purchased throughout the last 7 years.  It makes ZERO sense (except to the Sonos board and share holders).   

Ok so now the CEO reassures us that they will figure it out BUT states “we pledge to keep them updated with bug fixes and security patches for as long as possible”.  As long as possible?  Well there LIES THE PROBLEM; if I don’t upgrade I risk having my Legacy components potentially being compromised.   It should be a social responsible duty for companies to protect their customers and the consumers.  Since Sonos Speakers are connected to my WiFi and could be hacked without the on-going software updates, my decision (purely financial) could end up costing me a lot more later.  Extremely frustrating!  It’s going to be interesting how this all plays out but so far it doesn't sit well at all.  I really need to be reassured that all products will play nice with each other (‘cause that why I bought in to the whole Sonos system to begin with) and that every Sonos component will be safe from being compromised (i.e. software updates).  

~Casey

6 Legacy Components

5 Modern Components

You, Pieter & Margriet, have nothing to apologize for. 

My Dutch language skills are futile at best and communication would be impossible without your willingness to write your note in English.

Dank je for sharing your story and I agree with your international and common perspective.

Thanks for posting.  One thing, though, about this and other similar articles is that they really don’t do enough to acknowledge that Spence’s “mea culpa” was nothing of the sort and actually offered little to nothing new over and above the initial botched announcement.   Most of the articles focus on the supposed mea culpa but, exactly as Spence’s ghostwriters intended, don’t actually point out the lack of anything new…  It’s owners here who are calling out Spence’s BS, the media are too easily distracted by the bogus “apology”.  

I agree…..very little difference between the two announcements.

Very true. I still lament the loss of function to the desktop controller to this day; it’s a sore spot for many. But my greater point was simply that much more has been added and little taken away from speaker capability itself; the core control function of the the speaker units is still accessible with devices that vast majority of everyone has at their disposal and also has more features itself therein. And, the desktop application does still exist in a very basic form, e.g. they didn’t remove OSX or Win support as it were.
Regarding locking it down, yes, as am I. Because it still functions as needed and as purchased, and should as well in legacy.

How would the collective ownership here react if Sonos valued their most loyal and invested customers with a pro rated discount? Just for thought, some appreciation for those with multiple "legacy" Sonos devices, say 70% discount on new products for those with >10 registered legacy devices. 60% for 8-10; 50% for 5-7; 40% for 2-4; and 30% for single units.

Would something like this mollify the majority or is this still unfair?