First things first. This is not a rant. This is an expalation of a problem, which reduces the experience in 3D audio a lot. For background: I'm a sound engineer and music producer and I don't wanna sound arrogant, but I know what I'm talking about. (I'm a really nice and funny guy :D)
This bug appeared the moment I switched the Arc with the Arc Ultra. Before I made the switch I was on the 16.1 app and firmware. So I don't know if the Ultra causes the problem or the app/firmware. Before the switch everything was running as it should.
So, since there is not much of a topic around this, I'm curious if I am still one of a few who have this bug or one of a few who noticed it.
I made this post in Reddit, but not everyone is on Reddit and the more people know, the faster Sonos can work on it. Reddit discussion
I didn't saw any review which mentioned it. As you can see in the video, the rear driver is completly silenent when the Era 300's are paired with the Arc Ultra. Also Truplay isn't "sweeping" the driver either. (Timestamp 0:44) So the mesurement isn't right. First I thought it could be a feature instead of a bug, but it doens't fit the Dolby Atmos recommendations like this. You won't get sound from "behind" your seating position. And I remember Sonos self promoted it how it should work, where the rear driver is playing.
Sound from side driver/channel should boucing off your side walls, rear driver/channel bouncing off the back wall of your seating position and height channel obviosly bouncing off your ceiling. Thats why you should position them facing forward. At the moment you don't get the immersion that sound is coming from behind you, since the driver is silent.
I tested every setting, played the Dolby Atmos testfile (MKV KTrueHD Atmos] and MP4 PEAC3 + joc Atmos]) from different sources (TV Plex app, Nvidia Shield, from a USB through TV) Same result everytime.
If someone could test this behavior and can confirm this, it would be very nice. Sonos can't fix something they don't know and if most people doens't recognize doens't mean something isn't wrong.
Currently I'm running app version 80.12.04 (Android) and 80.12.03 (iPhone) and firmware version 81.1-58210. If you don't have this problem, what version are you running?
And last but not least: IF this ever getting fixed, the experience with Arc Ultra and Era 300 will be much better! I love my Sonos products soundwise and Arc Ultra is sounding really good, but it could be much better.
Have a nice day
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Technically its like this:
in 5.1 you got only side channels which are playing by the outer driver and tweeter.
in 7.1 you got a side and rear channel. the outer and inner driver and tweeter should be playing.
in Dolby Atmos it is like in 7.1 with the addition of the height tweeter which of course playing height objects.
The Era 300 having 6 drivers each. 2 on every side (driver and tweeter) one tweeter above and one tweeter at the front which is disabled in surround and this is correct.
So 5.1 based atmos is outer drivers and top drivers working?
Technically its like this:
in 5.1 you got only side channels which are playing by the outer driver and tweeter.
in 7.1 you got a side and rear channel. the outer and inner driver and tweeter should be playing.
in Dolby Atmos it is like in 7.1 with the addition of the height tweeter which of course playing height objects.
The Era 300 having 6 drivers each. 2 on every side (driver and tweeter) one tweeter above and one tweeter at the front which is disabled in surround and this is correct.
Are you 100% certain that with a 5.1 audio track, the surround channels are only supposed to play out of the outside drivers? With 5.1 audio, I always thought the surround audio plays out of the inside, outside, and top drivers.
Technically its like this:
in 5.1 you got only side channels which are playing by the outer driver and tweeter.
in 7.1 you got a side and rear channel. the outer and inner driver and tweeter should be playing.
in Dolby Atmos it is like in 7.1 with the addition of the height tweeter which of course playing height objects.
The Era 300 having 6 drivers each. 2 on every side (driver and tweeter) one tweeter above and one tweeter at the front which is disabled in surround and this is correct.
So 5.1 based atmos is outer drivers and top drivers working?
Atmos is Atmos. There are just 2 containers which are TrueHD and EAC3 + joint object channel. But at the ene the only difference is bitrate and codec.
Technically its like this:
in 5.1 you got only side channels which are playing by the outer driver and tweeter.
in 7.1 you got a side and rear channel. the outer and inner driver and tweeter should be playing.
in Dolby Atmos it is like in 7.1 with the addition of the height tweeter which of course playing height objects.
The Era 300 having 6 drivers each. 2 on every side (driver and tweeter) one tweeter above and one tweeter at the front which is disabled in surround and this is correct.
Are you 100% certain that with a 5.1 audio track, the surround channels are only supposed to play out of the outside drivers? With 5.1 audio, I always thought the surround audio plays out of the inside, outside, and top drivers.
Yes I am 100% sure. The oudsite drivers are just louder at 5.1. It was alway like that.
Technically its like this:
in 5.1 you got only side channels which are playing by the outer driver and tweeter.
in 7.1 you got a side and rear channel. the outer and inner driver and tweeter should be playing.
in Dolby Atmos it is like in 7.1 with the addition of the height tweeter which of course playing height objects.
The Era 300 having 6 drivers each. 2 on every side (driver and tweeter) one tweeter above and one tweeter at the front which is disabled in surround and this is correct.
So 5.1 based atmos is outer drivers and top drivers working?
Atmos is Atmos. There are just 2 containers which are TrueHD and EAC3 + joint object channel. But at the ene the only difference is bitrate and codec.
Ok is my diagram understanding correct? like is this how it’s meant to work when everything is running as it should.
Technically its like this:
in 5.1 you got only side channels which are playing by the outer driver and tweeter.
in 7.1 you got a side and rear channel. the outer and inner driver and tweeter should be playing.
in Dolby Atmos it is like in 7.1 with the addition of the height tweeter which of course playing height objects.
The Era 300 having 6 drivers each. 2 on every side (driver and tweeter) one tweeter above and one tweeter at the front which is disabled in surround and this is correct.
So 5.1 based atmos is outer drivers and top drivers working?
Atmos is Atmos. There are just 2 containers which are TrueHD and EAC3 + joint object channel. But at the ene the only difference is bitrate and codec.
Ok is my diagram understanding correct? like is this how it’s meant to work when everything is running as it should.
Thats correct. It should be like this.
So most streaming content will work fine so will 5.1 PCM but the issue is mainly with Dolby Atmos music and Lossless Atmos via disk?
So most streaming content will work fine so will 5.1 PCM but the issue is mainly with Dolby Atmos music and Lossless Atmos via disk?
Issue is with Atmos and 7.1.
5.1 and stereo upmix is fine
So most streaming content will work fine so will 5.1 PCM but the issue is mainly with Dolby Atmos music and Lossless Atmos via disk?
Issue is with Atmos and 7.1.
5.1 and stereo upmix is fine
Right...(sorry for so many questions) so wouldn’t DDP+ Atmos that’s used by netflix work correctly? since it wouldn’t utilise the inner drivers anyway making the issue something that will occur on 7.1 based Atmos and regular 7.1 audio sources?
It will be interesting to see some kind of response again. But personally in more inclined to "Trust" what Corey wrote before
Well corey went awol at this point. It’s up to everyone to keep on chugging and enjoy the system as it is - not working the way it should - and hope to the Sonos Gods they feel generous enough to bless us with a working system.
So most streaming content will work fine so will 5.1 PCM but the issue is mainly with Dolby Atmos music and Lossless Atmos via disk?
Issue is with Atmos and 7.1.
5.1 and stereo upmix is fine
Right...(sorry for so many questions) so wouldn’t DDP+ Atmos that’s used by netflix work correctly? since it wouldn’t utilise the inner drivers anyway making the issue something that will occur on 7.1 based Atmos and regular 7.1 audio sources?
DDP+ is utilising the inner driver with Atmos.
DDP+ (EAC3) without Atmos is also capabil of 7.1 and EAC3 +joc (joint object channel) is Atmos in EAC3 codec.
The bitrate of EAC3 is 1024kbps (mostly UHD-Blurays) and 768kbps for streaming.
TrueHD has a bitrate of 6000kbps (lossless)
When I'm making a Dolby Atmos project, I do my mix and at the end I create a broadcast wav which contains all informations. Then you use Dolby Media Composer to create your Atmos file and can choose your codec and bitrate of it.
If you would play each file side by side, it would sound the same beside the bitrate.
Just a quick explanation without getting to deep into it.
It will be interesting to see some kind of response again. But personally in more inclined to "Trust" what Corey wrote before
Well corey went awol at this point. It’s up to everyone to keep on chugging and enjoy the system as it is - not working the way it should - and hope to the Sonos Gods they feel generous enough to bless us with a working system.
I spoke with my Sonos support contact again and he created a "feature request" to the audio team of Sonos. Because the audio team wanted it to sound like it is now. It is a feature, not a bug at this time and thats why we created a feature request to solve our problem. That said, we don't know if this ever will be "fixed" or lets say be changed like it was originally..…
I would love to speak with one of the audio team. Maybe someone read this in here, because they are aware of this thread here and on reddit.
It will be interesting to see some kind of response again. But personally in more inclined to "Trust" what Corey wrote before
Well corey went awol at this point. It’s up to everyone to keep on chugging and enjoy the system as it is - not working the way it should - and hope to the Sonos Gods they feel generous enough to bless us with a working system.
I spoke with my Sonos support contact again and he created a "feature request" to the audio team of Sonos. Because the audio team wanted it to sound like it is now. It is a feature, not a bug at this time and thats why we created a feature request to solve our problem. That said, we don't know if this ever will be "fixed" or lets say be changed like it was originally..…
I would love to speak with one of the audio team. Maybe someone read this in here, because they are aware of this thread here and on reddit.
Would be nice to get a confirmation from @Corry P on this. Since he said otherwise
It really sounds absurd that sending rear channels throught height speaker only(?) would sound better to the audio team. But I mean if there is anyone at Sonos I actually trust it is the audio team.
I also spoke to Sonos support. At first he thought I was talking about the center speaker, but then he said (CHAT gpt from Swedish)
Yes, that is the intended behavior in a Dolby Atmos surround setup with the Era 300. When used as rear surround speakers, the inner, forward-facing driver (the one closest to you if you're sitting on a couch) is not utilized. Instead, the upward-firing driver handles height effects, and the side-firing drivers manage spatial surround sound to create the Atmos soundscape. This design optimizes the immersive experience by focusing on the spatial and height elements of the sound.
This is some next level BS.
I don’t know who we should trust tbh, @Corry P said one thing, two different people from support/sound team say otherwise.
I also spoke to Sonos support. At first he thought I was talking about the center speaker, but then he said (CHAT gpt from Swedish)
Yes, that is the intended behavior in a Dolby Atmos surround setup with the Era 300. When used as rear surround speakers, the inner, forward-facing driver (the one closest to you if you're sitting on a couch) is not utilized. Instead, the upward-firing driver handles height effects, and the side-firing drivers manage spatial surround sound to create the Atmos soundscape. This design optimizes the immersive experience by focusing on the spatial and height elements of the sound.
idk if the translation is broke or what, but it’s not really clear what he means: first he says “the inner, forward facing driver” is not utilized. It doesn’t say one AND the other, so he might still be referring to the forward facing driver, because “the side firing driverS” (PLURAL) manage spatial sound etc etc
Yeah that is true actually. Maybe he is still talking about the center one… First time I asked the question he definatelly was, I then clearified and he wrote this. But yeah seems like he still might thought I was talking about center.
That is why Im still inclined to belive Corry P here, customer-service is great but when people complain about a issue that sounds very close to something very well known it is very easy to just put the problem in that bucket. I’m going to try again.
I’m pretty sure there is another sonos employee other than Corry in this forum, but I don’t remember the name. If someone does then maybe we can also tag him here and he can shed some light on the issue
Yeah that is true actually. Maybe he is still talking about the center one… First time I asked the question he definatelly was, I then clearified and he wrote this. But yeah seems like he still might thought I was talking about center.
That is why Im still inclined to belive Corry P here, customer-service is great but when people complain about a issue that sounds very close to something very well known it is very easy to just put the problem in that bucket. I’m going to try again.
I know that the support in germany is 100% aware what we are talking about. He said that they got an informationsheet from Sonos yesterday and every supportmember can look into it now. Its from the audio team.
But he also said that maybe a level 1 support doens't know what we are talking about tho
Yeah that is true actually. Maybe he is still talking about the center one… First time I asked the question he definatelly was, I then clearified and he wrote this. But yeah seems like he still might thought I was talking about center.
That is why Im still inclined to belive Corry P here, customer-service is great but when people complain about a issue that sounds very close to something very well known it is very easy to just put the problem in that bucket. I’m going to try again.
I know that the support in germany is 100% aware what we are talking about. He said that they got an informationsheet from Sonos yesterday and every supportmember can look into it now. Its from the audio team.
would love to see that. I still don’t believe this is intentional, it’d be far too stupid, even for Sonos. It used to work just fine and it did sound better, so….
Yeah that is true actually. Maybe he is still talking about the center one… First time I asked the question he definatelly was, I then clearified and he wrote this. But yeah seems like he still might thought I was talking about center.
That is why Im still inclined to belive Corry P here, customer-service is great but when people complain about a issue that sounds very close to something very well known it is very easy to just put the problem in that bucket. I’m going to try again.
I know that the support in germany is 100% aware what we are talking about. He said that they got an informationsheet from Sonos yesterday and every supportmember can look into it now. Its from the audio team.
would love to see that. I still don’t believe this is intentional, it’d be far too stupid, even for Sonos. It used to work just fine and it did sound better, so….
The german support guy is really nice and just asked some of my questions to the audio team. My guess is that the audio team is a bit ignorant. Thats what they responded (Chat GPT translation):
Question: Why the inner of the speakers (the rear channel), is not audible during the Trueplay measurement (as noted in the video). Feedback: Trueplay works as expected and by design. The rear channel has more than one driver and sometimes uses a combination of drivers. Question: In some movies, the current design seems inappropriate, as if the sound is coming from the upper channel, even though it should come from the rear channels. Feedback: We understand that such questions can arise. The current behavior has been thoroughly checked/tested and corresponds to the intended design for the best sound experience.
Regarding the question of why it was different before and has now changed slightly: We can only partially confirm that. The soundbar audio has been optimized several times (see previous release notes). However, since the introduction of the Arc (June 10, 2020), no changes have been made to the surround experience. The experience should be consistent across our entire product range. Our audio team has confirmed this several times.
The last paragraph (in bold) is simply a lie from the audio team. I tested it multiple times to adjust the volumes back then, and it was definitely different before. Otherwise, I would have never started this discussion.
“Question: Why the inner of the speakers (the rear channel), is not audible during the Trueplay measurement (as noted in the video). Feedback: Trueplay works as expected and by design. The rear channel has more than one driver and sometimes uses a combination of drivers. Question: In some movies, the current design seems inappropriate, as if the sound is coming from the upper channel, even though it should come from the rear channels. Feedback: We understand that such questions can arise. The current behavior has been thoroughly checked/tested and corresponds to the intended design for the best sound experience.”
This sounds so arrogant, I wonder if this was really written by someone from the audio team and if they did, if they actually took time to read and understand the questions
EDIT: These answers almost sound like they were given by a chatbot lol
They market the Era 300s as 6 driver speaker (so they can charge you 500 bucks a piece) but if you use them as surrounds they become 3 driver speakers because someone decided that the rear channels should be played by the heights tweeter. Literally half the drivers are disabled (lol) and the sound that is supposed to come from behind will come from your ceiling (lol x2). This is a disgrace.
I’m speechless, this is beyond stupid and is really an insult to your customers.
