It looks like the Connect is no longer bit-perfect. Here's my evidence: let's discuss this.
First, I constructed a wav file of pink noise with amplitude ramping up from zero to digital max and back to zero.
I play this through my Connect and record the SPDIF output from the coax output into my PC.
The recording uses a Scarlett 8i6 audio interface set to use the Connect as master clock.
I record into a DAW (Sonar) multiple times - all instances are identical.
However, this recorded signal is not quite the same as the original wav file - it can be up to -21dB different.
See https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8od479xo9hi5el/connect_diff.PNG?dl=1
Note the expanded scale on the difference (third) track.
It looks like the difference gets larger when the signal is larger. To confirm this, I import the
original and difference files into Matlab and plot the raw data (difference vs original). There is clearly audio compression
happening here. See https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1yq6wcqafvnhaj/diff_vs_orig.png?dl=1
The scale is such that digital maximum is 1.
There also appears to be a slight bias when the waveform is negative and the signal is below the
compression threshold. See an expanded version of the previous plot
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9001tl9mkle4wly/diff_vs_orig_zoom.png?dl=1
Happy to answer questions about the method and conclusions.
Cheers, Peter.
p.s. Volume is set to fixed - I haven't tried variable.
In a loopback test (8i6 out from DAW to 8i6 in, no Sonos gear involved), I get bit-perfect cancellation.
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Three examples of other speakers that meet your benchmark for audiophile grade? I realise that there could be other kinds of kit upstream of these too, but that isn't of interest to me as the business end is.
What speakers meet your test for audiophile quality? Just the speakers please; let's leave the upstream electronics out of this for now.
Darren B - take a look at Roon. Expensive, but it can control your Bluesound and Sonos devices, along with many others...
Another one for Roon here, just love it!
I have just ordered a Raspberry Pi which will allow me to have my Meridian Explorer 2 DAC attached to it as a Roon endpoint.
It will also allow airplay, soundcloud, spotify etc. which are the bits missing from Roon.
I borrowed a mates the other day and it is on a very different level to my Connect sound wise. Plus total cost is £160.
That will replace the Connect, but I think I am going to get another one, sell the Connect Amp and buy a power amp for my little Quad S2 ribbon speakers.
Three speaker that I have in my house that sound considerably better than a pair of Play 5s are Meridian DSP5200s, Martin Logan Electromotion and the little Quad Ribbons, which I just paid £480 for, but the Quad 11L's they replaced were better too. They replaced a pair of Play 5s, I put the Quads in there with the ZP100, so similar price point.
I'm not knocking the Play 5, I think it is an amazing bit of kit, and a pair can really boogie, but they are extremely coloured (in a good way) compared to even a pair of decent bookshelf speakers.
A lot of the guys on another forum are swapping their Play units for these.....
https://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/q-bt3/review
They seem well pleased with them.
It will also allow airplay, soundcloud, spotify etc. which are the bits missing from Roon.
I borrowed a mates the other day and it is on a very different level to my Connect sound wise. Plus total cost is £160.
That will replace the Connect, but I think I am going to get another one, sell the Connect Amp and buy a power amp for my little Quad S2 ribbon speakers.
Three speaker that I have in my house that sound considerably better than a pair of Play 5s are Meridian DSP5200s, Martin Logan Electromotion and the little Quad Ribbons, which I just paid £480 for, but the Quad 11L's they replaced were better too. They replaced a pair of Play 5s, I put the Quads in there with the ZP100, so similar price point.
I'm not knocking the Play 5, I think it is an amazing bit of kit, and a pair can really boogie, but they are extremely coloured (in a good way) compared to even a pair of decent bookshelf speakers.
A lot of the guys on another forum are swapping their Play units for these.....
https://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/q-bt3/review
They seem well pleased with them.
SIgh . . .
Indeed...
What is "Sigh" about it?
Roon is just a way of browsing your music and Tidal etc. and then playing it through Sonos, it adds to the whole 'streaming' experience which is what Sonos is all about.
I am keeping my Play 5s, one in the kitchen and one in the bedroom and I love them, I have got loads of people to buy them.
And I have ordered a pair of ceiling speakers for the bathroom to go with my ZP100.
Just that in the context of this thread, and the fact Roon had been mentioned too, I thought I would say what I have done.
Such insular thinking and the smarmy smugness that you guys often show really does ruin what could be a good forum, I think the guys on avforums summed you lot up well, they just keep off here, because if you have a different opinion to you lot then you shoot them down.
It is a shame, I bet in real life you' lot are actually alright.
Roon is just a way of browsing your music and Tidal etc. and then playing it through Sonos, it adds to the whole 'streaming' experience which is what Sonos is all about.
I am keeping my Play 5s, one in the kitchen and one in the bedroom and I love them, I have got loads of people to buy them.
And I have ordered a pair of ceiling speakers for the bathroom to go with my ZP100.
Just that in the context of this thread, and the fact Roon had been mentioned too, I thought I would say what I have done.
Such insular thinking and the smarmy smugness that you guys often show really does ruin what could be a good forum, I think the guys on avforums summed you lot up well, they just keep off here, because if you have a different opinion to you lot then you shoot them down.
It is a shame, I bet in real life you' lot are actually alright.
Seriously, how could you not like browsing music with this......
Here it is showing that it is playing in the Lounge to the ZP100...
It is all about finding new music and enjoying it.
Here it is showing that it is playing in the Lounge to the ZP100...
It is all about finding new music and enjoying it.
Don't think the sigh was about Roon. However, Roon does require a PC; I for one won't be reintroducing a PC into my playback system anytime soon. Some of the UIs for the streaming providers are nearly as full featured as Roon (I'm fondly remembering Rdio), and once they add Sonos Direct Control, will make Roon even more of a niche product. Don't get me wrong, it's a great product, but 99% of listeners have no need for it.
The fact I have discovered more music in the last 6 months using Roon than I had in the last 10 years makes the small outlay well worth it.
To me, that and Tidal have been the best value items I have ever bought for music.
It just sits on my computer along side Sonos.
I run Roon Server, so I don't see it on the mac it runs in the background, then run roon remote on my macbook, phones and tablets.
You can run it on a NAS, NUC etc. too.
But it has made Sonos better, and it has allowed endpoints like the connect, connect amp etc. for a very low cost, which means I can afford to have more music.
To me, that and Tidal have been the best value items I have ever bought for music.
It just sits on my computer along side Sonos.
I run Roon Server, so I don't see it on the mac it runs in the background, then run roon remote on my macbook, phones and tablets.
You can run it on a NAS, NUC etc. too.
But it has made Sonos better, and it has allowed endpoints like the connect, connect amp etc. for a very low cost, which means I can afford to have more music.
I'm not knocking the Play 5, I think it is an amazing bit of kit, and a pair can really boogie, but they are extremely coloured (in a good way) compared to even a pair of decent bookshelf speakers.
A lot of the guys on another forum are swapping their Play units for these.....
https://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/q-bt3/review
They seem well pleased with them.
The sigh was about the above, and to the worn out subject of Connect SQ. Every speaker is coloured in some way, to some extent. It is the nature of the beast which is why personal preferences rule for speakers.
And the 5 unit is coloured even better once it has responded to room acoustics via Trueplay, since it has state of the art tech built into it that lets it do so, unlike passive bookshelf speakers that use tech that is decades older and mostly obsolete now. Which isn't to say that they aren't worthy of consideration in a room where acoustics and speaker placement isn't an issue. Along with messy cabling.
The BT3 is a good bluetooth speaker but with a limited feature set compared to any Sonos play unit. I did not find it to be extraordinary for sound quality when I was evaluating one for my TV room, to replace a broken down amp. So I preferred to have the amp fixed where it soldiers on with excellent for the application Quad 11L units bought in 2002. But a 1 pair + Sub trumps the 11L easily for my needs of music listening in another zone, and so also, will a 5 pair, I suspect. I certainly don't see any reason to swap out my play unit based set up for any speaker pair I have heard, and I have heard/used several in the past from the usual suspects - Harbeth. Quad, KEF and B&W to name some.
Of course, as I said, these are subjective things, so I see little value in knowing that some people on another forum think different and prefer the BT3, given that this could be for anything from feature preference to price to sound quality preference. And this has nothing to do with the thread topic.
Sigh....:D
The other reason for this, as I see it, is that there are many other places on the net that cater to those that want to discuss equipment churn. Sonos users are usually those that aren't interested in this for a raft of reasons.
Spot on Kumar. Especially the last part.
The other reason for this, as I see it, is that there are many other places on the net that cater to those that want to discuss equipment churn. Sonos users are usually those that aren't interested in this for a raft of reasons.
I don't tend to churn my kit.
I have just swapped my Meridian DSPs with a small Bel Canto amp and a pair or Martin Logans after 10 years with the DSPs.
And I wasn't looking to swap, just that I heard the electrostatics the other day and with the kind of music I love I thought they were amazing so thought "Why not? Life is short."
I forgot that we are not allowed to let the discussions evolve on this forum. I consider myself reprimanded, I'll try my best not to do it in the future.
It was however in response to you asking...
Three examples of other speakers that meet your benchmark for audiophile grade?
I agree that I am just as guilty as anyone else here in allowing myself to stray off topic. Even if the OP does not mind, it makes for a messier forum.
Which, understandably so, is a place for Sonos users and would be users to discuss/learn how to select, use, trouble shoot and make best use of Sonos products.
Which, understandably so, is a place for Sonos users and would be users to discuss/learn how to select, use, trouble shoot and make best use of Sonos products.
Accent on the SONOS products. It really seems that passive-aggressive pimping of other products is the goal of some, a goal far better served at a place like AVS, rather than a forum dedicated to one manufacturer.
Sorry, I totally disagree with you.
Sonos is a system that works with other kit, it is designed to work with other marques and does that well, so being able to discuss what it works with well and where the kit could be improved to keep existing customers and bring in new customers is what forums like this should be about.
One of the main reasons I mentioned moving away from the connects to the Raspberry Pi units is because they allow me to do what I do now with Sonos but also allow me to send files via Airplay too, which is one thing I really wish Sonos would add at some point in the future.
The Meridian forum I am on are always suggesting other peoples kit to people if it will do what they want better, I found most of the info on Bel Canto last week from the Cyrus forum and I bought my E Class estate after loads of guys on the BMW forum I used suggested it would be the best for my needs.
Complete refusal to acknowledge other peoples way of thinking and shooting down their discussions is not good for the forum or for Sonos.
I'm not passive aggressive pimping other products at all, I'm just not saying 'there is only Sonos'.
It feels a bit like being on a Playstation or Xbox forum on here!
We get you are well and truly "Sonos" but maybe not everyone is quite so blinkered in how you have to use Sonos to enjoy it, it isn't an all or nothing, you can have Sonos and other kit too you know? 😃
Sonos is a system that works with other kit, it is designed to work with other marques and does that well, so being able to discuss what it works with well and where the kit could be improved to keep existing customers and bring in new customers is what forums like this should be about.
One of the main reasons I mentioned moving away from the connects to the Raspberry Pi units is because they allow me to do what I do now with Sonos but also allow me to send files via Airplay too, which is one thing I really wish Sonos would add at some point in the future.
The Meridian forum I am on are always suggesting other peoples kit to people if it will do what they want better, I found most of the info on Bel Canto last week from the Cyrus forum and I bought my E Class estate after loads of guys on the BMW forum I used suggested it would be the best for my needs.
Complete refusal to acknowledge other peoples way of thinking and shooting down their discussions is not good for the forum or for Sonos.
I'm not passive aggressive pimping other products at all, I'm just not saying 'there is only Sonos'.
It feels a bit like being on a Playstation or Xbox forum on here!
We get you are well and truly "Sonos" but maybe not everyone is quite so blinkered in how you have to use Sonos to enjoy it, it isn't an all or nothing, you can have Sonos and other kit too you know? 😃
It will also allow airplay, soundcloud, spotify etc. which are the bits missing from Roon.
I borrowed a mates the other day and it is on a very different level to my Connect sound wise. Plus total cost is £160.
That will replace the Connect, but I think I am going to get another one, sell the Connect Amp and buy a power amp for my little Quad S2 ribbon speakers.
Three speaker that I have in my house that sound considerably better than a pair of Play 5s are Meridian DSP5200s, Martin Logan Electromotion and the little Quad Ribbons, which I just paid £480 for, but the Quad 11L's they replaced were better too. They replaced a pair of Play 5s, I put the Quads in there with the ZP100, so similar price point.
I'm not knocking the Play 5, I think it is an amazing bit of kit, and a pair can really boogie, but they are extremely coloured (in a good way) compared to even a pair of decent bookshelf speakers.
A lot of the guys on another forum are swapping their Play units for these.....
https://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/q-bt3/review
They seem well pleased with them.
Where in the above is any reference to Sonos kit other than your plans to replace it? Of course, Sonos is quite comfortable letting you pontificate here because you have no ability to hurt sales, so go ahead and do so. Pimping other kit sounds a good description for the quoted post though.
Ahh..I just noticed your plans to keep a zp100:) I am sure we are all grateful for that.
I'm not passive aggressive pimping other products at all, I'm just not saying 'there is only Sonos'.
I'm pretty sure if Websters had a definition for passive-aggressive pimping of other products it would be this! 😃
My QUAD ESL-63 'stats are from 1983, so I'm not pimping them, lol. The Connect:Amp drives them nicely, and has done so for years. Perfection, imo. Maybe when I retire and downsize, I'll go 100% Sonos.
If I could get a pair of Quad ESLs for a price that won't need me to sell my car, that is the one change I would consider even now:). Driven by a Connect Amp, that would be one HiFi flavour worth having; replacing play units with conventionally constructed speakers from any other make isn't worth the effort, money, or the cabling mess. One problem with ESL though is the space they need left behind them for best results. No Trueplay solutions for that!
Are there any news about whether the issue has been fixed with recent updates?
I don't believe that Sonos considers this an issue, so I would doubt there would be any updates.
I also think that the changes in the Connect's digital output are the result of a decision by Sonos. Who knows, maybe they decided they wanted to 'voice' the output in a certain way. I am not so sure that the results are not audible though. I cannot back it up with hard science / blind testings etc. I think the OP (Peter Mc) reported he could actually hear the difference so I would not rule out audible differences so quickly.
I used Connects for many years and I became unhappy with the sound (digital out) a few years ago without being able to figure out why. This does not prove anything of course so I have decided to purchase an old ZP90 (reported as remaining bit-perfect) and once I get my hands on it I will try a blind test against my recent Connect to see what I find 🙂. It will be a few weeks before I do this but I will report back.
I used Connects for many years and I became unhappy with the sound (digital out) a few years ago without being able to figure out why. This does not prove anything of course so I have decided to purchase an old ZP90 (reported as remaining bit-perfect) and once I get my hands on it I will try a blind test against my recent Connect to see what I find 🙂. It will be a few weeks before I do this but I will report back.
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