S2 Update 14.12 Sub Issues

R
Userlevel 4

Hello,

With the recent 14.12 S2 Update there is a bug in the sub settings when using Trueplay, and I've pinpointed the problem.  I wanted to pass along this information to the company to ensure that the specifics of the issue are known.

It’s likely that most people may not notice this, or bother asking Sonos about it, but this is a real difference between 14.12 and the previous versions.

  • My current setup has an Arc, Sub(Gen1), and 2 Play1's.  
    • Using a white noise generator to review these differences.  
    • I'm controlling the sub settings on my iPad Pro while recording on my iPhone 12 Pro Max.  
    • I've run Trueplay twice since the update, and get the same results both times.  
      • Both Trueplay runs were with my iPhone as my iPad Pro does not have support yet.
  • Once updated to 14.12, you are prompted to re-run Trueplay.  But Trueplay has a bug in this new update.
  • I tested the frequencies with Trueplay On and then Off without changing the volume on the App.  
    • The only setting modified is the "Sub Audio" setting that ranges from -15 to +15
  • These differences are absolutely unique to the 14.12 update
    • I did not take pics, but have done similar tests before and the sub settings always increase/decrease all of the frequencies below the crossover
    • In previous versions, 40hz was always the highest db of any frequency when bossting the sub volume.

Trueplay On with Bass and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0: 
    • There is about a 4-5db reduction in the 30-60hz range and a boost in the 60-80hz range compared to Trueplay off

    •  

  • Sub = +15: 
    • Here is where you see the issue.  Sub 50hz doesn't change much at all even boosting the sub setting to the max  
    • There is a huge boost in the 60-80hz range where it is now the dominate frequency range of the sub

    •  

Trueplay Off with Bass, and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0
    • You can already see a difference in that the <50hz frequencies are higher and it's a pretty flat wave.

    •  
  • Sub = +15
    • Notice that now the dominate frequency range is the 35-50hz.  
    • The 60-80hz is still boosted, but it does not ever overtake the lower frequencies

    •  

  • Lastly, here is a grouped view showing these pictures side by side so you can really see the difference.
    • It also includes going -15 on the sub

    •  

  • Could it be a High Pass Filter setting that is getting triggered when you run TruePlay?
  • If you do not like the way your system sounds after 14.12, turn off Trueplay.
    • It will not be as good as what you are used to as Trueplay will adjust more to your room and leave less peaks/valleys throughout the spectrum.
    • But it will still be more like what you are used to hearing.

I can provide more information if needed, but hopefully this helps pinpoint the issue for everyone.  

 

Thank you for your time,

Robert

84 replies

I
Userlevel 2
Badge

Thanks for doing this analysis! It provides actual data to what many of us are experiencing. I have noticed that with trueplay off the system sounds better and closer to what it was before the update. But not quite as powerful still. Even with bass/sub audio all the way up.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

It certainly seems possible that they introduced some undesirable side effects due to the number of complaints on Reddit about the anemic bass after the 14.12 update. I've never once bumped my sub level above "0" until the 14.12 update. Something seems broken.

A
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

I also noticed that something is wrong with the sound after 14.12

I put the volume way higher than before and I still don’t get the same results that I used to.

Zeek78
Userlevel 3
Badge +3

I wonder if this has been done before the sale of the mini sub begins, since the mini sub can't handle those low frequency…

H

Hi. I have the same problem after last update 14.12. After Trueplay I had to set Sub at +10 in order to hear barely some bass. These bugs could not happed in this price range. Now sonos sound like s…

hope they will fix it asap. 

L
Userlevel 5
Badge +11

This is sad to read, I can’t say I have noticed the lower bass yet with my sub, as not watched any sub heavy material at a decent level.

But if this is indeed the case, why are recent updates releasing with these big bugs, sort it out Sonos!

K
Userlevel 7
Badge +16

I wonder if this has been done before the sale of the mini sub begins, since the mini sub can't handle those low frequency…

If that is the case and they are crippling systems to support new hardware then that doesn't bode well for the future.

I was looking at an Arc but not a chance after all the trouble people have been having since 14.06, and it just keeps getting worse.

M
Userlevel 2
Badge +2

I wonder if this has been done before the sale of the mini sub begins, since the mini sub can't handle those low frequency…

If that is the case and they are crippling systems to support new hardware then that doesn't bode well for the future.

I was looking at an Arc but not a chance after all the trouble people have been having since 14.06, and it just keeps getting worse.

 

They fixed the issue since 14.06.

Then apparently miss-tuned the sub in this new 14.12

Just the nature of patching - I don’t mind being bleeding edge (wading through bugs), but the idea with software updates is - if someone add’s features, don’t update till you see the patch that fixes those features ;)

M
Userlevel 2
Badge +2

Nice work @ropfeil !

K
Userlevel 7
Badge +16

I wonder if this has been done before the sale of the mini sub begins, since the mini sub can't handle those low frequency…

If that is the case and they are crippling systems to support new hardware then that doesn't bode well for the future.

I was looking at an Arc but not a chance after all the trouble people have been having since 14.06, and it just keeps getting worse.

 

They fixed the issue since 14.06.

Then apparently miss-tuned the sub in this new 14.12

Just the nature of patching - I don’t mind being bleeding edge (wading through bugs), but the idea with software updates is - if someone add’s features, don’t update till you see the patch that fixes those features ;)

2 months with the Sub and Surrounds dropping out would have been annoying to say the least, then to mess the Sub up not long after isn't great customer service (to me anyway).

S2 seems far to update happy for me unfortunately, not even Sonos headphones could drag me over now.

 

F
Userlevel 2
Badge

@Corry P 

H
Badge

Topic Push!

J

I have noticed my system no longer sounds the same, more dull. Hard to explain. Is there any way to revert to the previous version?

Airgetlam

Despite years and years of requests, Sonos has not yet made available a method to “roll back” to a previous version. I’d assume it’s hard to do so, and they’ve not invested time in making it more easy.

Have you rerun TruePlay as suggested in the original post about this update? 

Have you contacted Sonos support with your diagnostics?

Bruce
T
Userlevel 3
Badge

Damn it, not this again. We were just out of the 14.6 nightmare and you shove this on our throats. I should be mad at myself for manually updating despite having the auto updates turned off. 

Now I am genuinely concerned about their software engineering quality control. I really hope this doesn't take another 60+ pages of comments and troubleshooting for them to acknowledge this. I'm beyond pissed. 

A
Userlevel 2
Badge

Excellent report @ropfeil Thank you!

Do you by any chance have frequency response graphs from before the 14.12 update?
Myself and many others have noticed that the sound profile of the Arc (with and without Sub) has become flat and unbalanced in general and that’s on top of the obvious bass issue. Different people experience it differently: reduction in volume, unbalanced channels, exaggerated mid/high frequencies, loss in detail, overpowering vocals and dialogue, etc. There is another tread on the forum with more reports here:

 

W
Userlevel 2

Damn it, not this again. We were just out of the 14.6 nightmare and you shove this on our throats. I should be mad at myself for manually updating despite having the auto updates turned off. 

Now I am genuinely concerned about their software engineering quality control. I really hope this doesn't take another 60+ pages of comments and troubleshooting for them to acknowledge this. I'm beyond pissed. 

As far as I'm concerned, they never acknowledged the dropout issue with 14.6.  They made “improvements” that just so happened to fix the issue hundreds of people were reporting.  I expect the same treatment with this.  Deny, avoid, and we are left hoping for a fix in every release.

 

Prove me wrong Sonos.

skullc
Userlevel 6
Badge +11

As this is not the first issue from software updates and as their has been silence from the firm if and when my products stop working I will not be replacing them like for like.

I will look at other firms products it's not the fault but the lack of admission of the issues that troubles me and I find that sad

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
M
Badge +1

 

S
Userlevel 1

I wonder if this has been done before the sale of the mini sub begins, since the mini sub can't handle those low frequency…

Same thing could apply to the ne tuning of the Arc being less “punchy” overall. Would be a real shame ans certainly a bad decision by Sonos!

S
Userlevel 1

Hello,

With the recent 14.12 S2 Update there is a bug in the sub settings when using Trueplay, and I've pinpointed the problem.  I wanted to pass along this information to the company to ensure that the specifics of the issue are known.

It’s likely that most people may not notice this, or bother asking Sonos about it, but this is a real difference between 14.12 and the previous versions.

  • My current setup has an Arc, Sub(Gen1), and 2 Play1's.  
    • Using a white noise generator to review these differences.  
    • I'm controlling the sub settings on my iPad Pro while recording on my iPhone 12 Pro Max.  
    • I've run Trueplay twice since the update, and get the same results both times.  
      • Both Trueplay runs were with my iPhone as my iPad Pro does not have support yet.
  • Once updated to 14.12, you are prompted to re-run Trueplay.  But Trueplay has a bug in this new update.
  • I tested the frequencies with Trueplay On and then Off without changing the volume on the App.  
    • The only setting modified is the "Sub Audio" setting that ranges from -15 to +15
  • These differences are absolutely unique to the 14.12 update
    • I did not take pics, but have done similar tests before and the sub settings always increase/decrease all of the frequencies below the crossover
    • In previous versions, 40hz was always the highest db of any frequency when bossting the sub volume.

Trueplay On with Bass and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0: 
    • There is about a 4-5db reduction in the 30-60hz range and a boost in the 60-80hz range compared to Trueplay off

    •  

  • Sub = +15: 
    • Here is where you see the issue.  Sub 50hz doesn't change much at all even boosting the sub setting to the max  
    • There is a huge boost in the 60-80hz range where it is now the dominate frequency range of the sub

    •  

Trueplay Off with Bass, and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0
    • You can already see a difference in that the <50hz frequencies are higher and it's a pretty flat wave.

    •  
  • Sub = +15
    • Notice that now the dominate frequency range is the 35-50hz.  
    • The 60-80hz is still boosted, but it does not ever overtake the lower frequencies

    •  

  • Lastly, here is a grouped view showing these pictures side by side so you can really see the difference.
    • It also includes going -15 on the sub

    •  

  • Could it be a High Pass Filter setting that is getting triggered when you run TruePlay?
  • If you do not like the way your system sounds after 14.12, turn off Trueplay.
    • It will not be as good as what you are used to as Trueplay will adjust more to your room and leave less peaks/valleys throughout the spectrum.
    • But it will still be more like what you are used to hearing.

I can provide more information if needed, but hopefully this helps pinpoint the issue for everyone.  

 

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Sonos fix the sub tuning now! The new Arc dsp might be personal preference overall but the sub having strongly reduced sub bass output is obviously just to reduce the gap to the sub mini. That is horrible behavior and I highly doubt that this is just a bug. This fits the story line too well. Shame on you product managers at Sonos! 

M
Userlevel 2
Badge +2

I confirm this. Sound seems globally better, but something is wrong with TruePlay calibration of the Sub.

My Sub Gen 3 seems to disappear with TruePlay on, and comes back to life if I turn TruPlay off.

Is there any moderator out there that can forward this to whoever has the responsibility and the power to fix this?

Sonos product are hands down superior, but ruining them with these disastrous updates just turn them into very unreliable products after all.

Before the update sound was very good, except, maybe the center channel on the Arc, that was a bit weak with Atoms contents.

Right now dialogues seem way better but they almost muted the sub.

 

R
Userlevel 4

Hello,

Sorry I haven’t replied to your questions yet.  I’ve been busy with work.  I unfortunately don’t have any pics of the graphs from before the update.  I have messed around with it previously and the pre-update Trueplay was much more like the Trueplay Off in my post.  The frequencies had less peaks and valleys, but 100% the Sub Audio tuning modified the 40hz the most.

It’s actually the reason why I returned the Gen3 sub and got a Gen1 sub instead.  I thought the 40hz was too much in the Gen3, but in the Gen1 it is a few db less.  That makes a huge difference for me in that I can turn up the sub without the 40hz drowning out the 60-80hz.

But the latest update goes a whole different direction.  At it’s peak, the 60hz is 20db more than the 40hz when Trueplay is On.  When Trueplay is off, the 40hz is 4-6db more than the 60hz.  So a 24+db swing between Trueplay Off and On.

I was hoping that this would be picked up by support.  I’ve tried waiting in the chat, but get stuck in a queue and can’t be at this computer all the time.  But it looks like no one from the company has posted so I’ll try to do the chat again tonight.

If someone gets in before then, please point them to this post and then let us know what is said.

Dogdad
Userlevel 5
Badge +14

Hello,

Sorry I haven’t replied to your questions yet.  I’ve been busy with work.  I unfortunately don’t have any pics of the graphs from before the update.  I have messed around with it previously and the pre-update Trueplay was much more like the Trueplay Off in my post.  The frequencies had less peaks and valleys, but 100% the Sub Audio tuning modified the 40hz the most.

It’s actually the reason why I returned the Gen3 sub and got a Gen1 sub instead.  I thought the 40hz was too much in the Gen3, but in the Gen1 it is a few db less.  That makes a huge difference for me in that I can turn up the sub without the 40hz drowning out the 60-80hz.

But the latest update goes a whole different direction.  At it’s peak, the 60hz is 20db more than the 40hz when Trueplay is On.  When Trueplay is off, the 40hz is 4-6db more than the 60hz.  So a 24+db swing between Trueplay Off and On.

I was hoping that this would be picked up by support.  I’ve tried waiting in the chat, but get stuck in a queue and can’t be at this computer all the time.  But it looks like no one from the company has posted so I’ll try to do the chat again tonight.

If someone gets in before then, please point them to this post and then let us know what is said.

Go to YouTube and look at Peter Pee’s breakdown on all this crap with the arc and such. He did the spectrum before and after the upgrade and shows videos of the testing.

R
Userlevel 4

Hello,

Sorry I haven’t replied to your questions yet.  I’ve been busy with work.  I unfortunately don’t have any pics of the graphs from before the update.  I have messed around with it previously and the pre-update Trueplay was much more like the Trueplay Off in my post.  The frequencies had less peaks and valleys, but 100% the Sub Audio tuning modified the 40hz the most.

It’s actually the reason why I returned the Gen3 sub and got a Gen1 sub instead.  I thought the 40hz was too much in the Gen3, but in the Gen1 it is a few db less.  That makes a huge difference for me in that I can turn up the sub without the 40hz drowning out the 60-80hz.

But the latest update goes a whole different direction.  At it’s peak, the 60hz is 20db more than the 40hz when Trueplay is On.  When Trueplay is off, the 40hz is 4-6db more than the 60hz.  So a 24+db swing between Trueplay Off and On.

I was hoping that this would be picked up by support.  I’ve tried waiting in the chat, but get stuck in a queue and can’t be at this computer all the time.  But it looks like no one from the company has posted so I’ll try to do the chat again tonight.

If someone gets in before then, please point them to this post and then let us know what is said.

Go to YouTube and look at Peter Pee’s breakdown on all this crap with the arc and such. He did the spectrum before and after the upgrade and shows videos of the testing.

His is only the arc though.  I think any issues with the arc are completely different than this issue with the sub itself.  
 

I think the arc changes are much more subtle than the sub, but they are different in an known attempt to help with the the center channel dialog volume and to provide better spatial awareness.  
 

The sub changes are unannounced and yet they are drastically different than before.  Which it why it looks like a bug to me. 
 

I haven’t really spent time on whether I like the arc more now. My initial listen I did, but not so sure at the moment. 
 

I really need to test it without the sub as the changes to the sub are overpowering and it makes it more difficult to A/B. 

Reply


Terms & ConditionsCookie settings