Delay compensation when used with AV receivers



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...the fact it has not registered in the priority scale at some level given the years of complaints/forum posts does reflect to some extent the values of a company to its customer base

Again, this feature has been marked as "Under Consideration". It's not that it's 'not planned'. It's on the 'priority scale', just not as high up as you'd like.
Majik, I think most apreciate that any development as simple as it might seem would require man hours of development and testing. moving away from the complications of if this is "simple" or not to implement,


Nobody should "move away" from the difficulty of implementing something when discussing future developments.

the point is I think most folks are surprised at the amount of people that have noticed this and more importantly impacts their setup/use of the solution. its clear this is a VERY useful feature to get the Sonos system to play nice with the bulk of folks using more than one zone and existing receivers/ other equipment that introduces delay, I have to imagine this is is the case of over 50% of folks with a Sonos system at home.



The bold is pure speculation.


so the fact it has not registered in the priority scale at some level given the years of complaints/forum posts does reflect to some extent the values of a company to its customer base and folks notice.


It has registered on the priority scale. It has been marked "Under Consderation". If it was not on the priority scale, it would be marked "Not Planned." After "Under Consderation", the next status is "Planned" which will indicate an imminent release.


The view at sonos might be that this is somehow a niche issue and does not impact most users, but I find that hard to believe.

Pure speculation.


Reality is most users probably consider this a anoying issue and have adjusted the use of the solution to playing in one zone at a time or for those with budgets changed equipment to minimize, reduce the issue.


Again, pure speculation. This does not affect me in the least because I use no DSP when I listen to music.


But its this kind of flexibility in the configuration that would make take sonos from the great category to the trully standout. Just surprising this has not been recognized yet. I keep crossing my fingers this recognized at some point soon by sonos development.


As Majik stated, you could take this quote and paste it into any and all requests on this forum. For you this is what separates the "great" from the "standout." For others is is Google Play, Android streaming, 24/96, static IPs, Amazon Cloud for EU, Playbar DTS, Playbar HDMI, Windows 8 support, etc., etc., etc.


I have two issues with the system this feature would resolve, . . .


I have zero issues this would resolve. Instead, I would love the 'i' button to access an online database so that I can see Artist/Album info for my local library like that available to online services. I would also kill for the new SiriusXM 'On-Demand' and station customization features. These two would greatly enhance my Sonos experience, and would most certainly move Sonos from "great" to "standout" and "amazing" for me. But these are my personal needs and wants, and I would never state that my needs and wants are anymore important to Sonos sales/success than anyone else's. YMMV.


PS - Over at ask.sonos, this idea is currently 23 on the list of customer submitted Ideas (ranked by # of "Likes"), with 47 votes in favor (including mine). Compare and contrast with Windows 8 support (690 votes), Google Music (283), and DTS for the Playbar (256). Now this is by no means a reliable marketing study, and I highly suspect there is some campaigning going on (esp. for Windows 😎, but it is the best insight we have on the wishes of Sonos owners.
Hi,

I have just bought a Play5, Bridge and Connect for my surround sound system in the lounge. I am disappointing to find there is a delay when using the connect and play5 together. I thought everything is meant to sync perfectly. Please update the software to allow for delay compensation. Thanks.
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I've been meaning to drop in here for an update since I've now had some experience using the Playbar. I'll write more separately but I wanted to post a video here showing how the Lipsync delay in the Playbar works. Bottom line is all of the functionality I've been describing (requesting) for managing the Connect delay has ALREADY been developed and programmed by Sonos. The slider is there, but ALSO the ability to propogate a delay across multiple zones. So everyone who's been saying that it would be too complicated and take too much programming time can rest easy. It's already been done.

Now, if Sonos could just apply the work to the Connect then I can get back to selling Connects. ;-)

http://vimeo.com/65532574

Apologies for the quality of the video. Taking a video of my tablet proved to be a bit of a challenge.
The slider is there, but ALSO the ability to propogate a delay across multiple zones.
Actually that's not the case. The Playbar lip-sync delay applies only to the Playbar (and any bonded sub/surrounds), not to any Players grouped with it. Other Players have the standard 70ms Line-In delay.

In fact, as the FAQ explains, one can use the lip-sync adjustment to add Playbar delay so as to bring grouped Players back into sync:
Latency and Lip-sync Delays

When playing a line-in source, all players other than the PLAYBAR insert a 70 ms delay to allow all rooms to be synchronized. When the line-in source is a TV, this 70 ms delay results in a small, but perceptible, lip-sync delay.


The PLAYBAR is designed to have a much lower delay when playing from the TOSLink (optical) input and as a result, provides much better lip-sync performance than other players. All players bonded with the PLAYBAR (SUB and PLAY:3 surrounds) are synchronized with the PLAYBAR at all times.


When other rooms are grouped to the PLAYBAR, the same 70 ms delay is used for transmission to those rooms. As a result, the other rooms are slightly delayed relative to the PLAYBAR when it’s playing from its TV source (optical input). In practice, this is often not noticeable, but depends on how close the other rooms are and the relative volume of the PLAYBAR and the other rooms. If it is noticeable, you can adjust the Audio Delay setting to add additional delay to the PLAYBAR for perfect room-to–room synchronization. Select Settings->Room Settings->Advanced Audio->TV Dialog Settings to adjust this setting.
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I'm not in a position to comment about Playbar delays, but I do want to comment about your use of a video clip to make your point. As they say "a picture is worth a thousand words"!

As someone who used to produce videos for a living, despite your "apologies for the quality of the video", nevertheless I reckon it's a useful technique, even if ratty does disagree with your premise!
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Actually that's not the case. The Playbar lip-sync delay applies only to the Playbar (and any bonded sub/surrounds), not to any Players grouped with it. Other Players have the standard 70ms Line-In delay.

In fact, as the FAQ explains, one can use the lip-sync adjustment to add Playbar delay so as to bring grouped Players back into sync:


But this is what jbs is telling.
If it is possible with the Playbar, why not just add the delay setting to all other devices?

One could then circumvent delays imposed by AV Receivers by just setting a delay on all other grouped Zone Players as well (exactly as it is done with the Playbar).

From the users experience of course it would be easier to name the delay of the AV/Receiver and with VERY limited math (add/sub is enough) Sonos would be able to calculate the delay needed on the grouped devices.
But this is what jbs is telling.
Whether or not the maths is simple and the implementation relatively straightforward, jbs was saying that the system already had the ability to propagate the Playbar lip-sync delay setting to grouped Players. I was correcting that misconception.
For those searching for an A/V receiver that does not induce a delay when used with Sonos Connect, I just purchased the Onkyo TX-NR616:

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR616&class=Receiver&source=prodClass

I have tested Direct mode and PLII Music mode, and found no audible delay when paired with 2 Play:3 approximately 15 feet away in an open kitchen. I did not check any other modes because (quite frankly) I'll never use them. But I observed no delay using those two.

Note: Connection was via optical, testing included talk shows on SiriusXM and music via local library.
.... Onkyo TX-NR616:...

...I have tested Direct mode and PLII Music mode, and found no audible delay when paired with 2 Play:3 approximately 15 feet away in an open kitchen.

Note: Connection was via optical, testing included talk shows on SiriusXM and music via local library.


TFT - worth knowing. If you get a chance at any time, it would be interesting to know whether you'd hear any delay using analogue connects instead.
TFT - worth knowing. If you get a chance at any time, it would be interesting to know whether you'd hear any delay using analogue connects instead.

I'll give it a try when I get a chance. Also, I'll try other modes, even though I loathe most DSP modes.
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Require this functionality Zones are out of synch. ZP90 on Onkyo AVR and S5 in the kitchen.

Very annoying!

I would recommend Sonos to finally address this issue. Todays Quality AVRs are very costly and delays through DSPs will not be smaller but larger!

I do not want to base my purchase on AVRs based solely on minimal audio delay.
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Require this functionality Zones are out of synch. ZP90 on Onkyo AVR and S5 in the kitchen.

Very annoying!

I would recommend Sonos to finally address this issue. Todays Quality AVRs are very costly and delays through DSPs will not be smaller but larger!

I do not want to base my purchase on AVRs based solely on minimal audio delay.


I work around it, by putting my AVR in stereo mode (as this doesn't require delays), but would love to use in 7ch and be in sync
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Bottom line is all of the functionality I've been describing (requesting) for managing the Connect delay has ALREADY been developed and programmed by Sonos. The slider is there, but ALSO the ability to propogate a delay across multiple zones.

The problem with the Connect and A/V delays, is that ALL other zones needs to be delayed, and NOT the Connect. That is not the case with the PLAYBAR.

And even though ratty claims that the lip sync delay isn't propagated to all other players (I don't see why it wouldn't work), the logic behind just delaying a stream for ALL players is much different than what you want to achieve with the Connect. Since the TV with the spdif will be the "Coordinator" and all other players are just streaming from the PLAYBAR, the PLAYBAR can in fact be responsible for delaying all other audio.

In the case of a Connect, this would be kind of easy to fix, when the Connect is the coordinator (play line out directly, delay the stream to other players with X milliseconds), BUT then you are missing the fact that in many cases it won't be the Connect that is the Coordinator. That would require that Connects need to stream a "special" stream which isn't delayed, whils the Coordinator plays a delayed stream (and delays all other streams, except for the connect), and this is probably where all the problems come at play.

So, I would say that your conclusion is wrong, and I'm sorry for shooting down your hope 🙂. As a developer, I would still say that it is technically doable, but it's not as trivial as it might seem. And, you need to weigh in the possible misconfigurations that can happen, and the possible support scenarios it might rise. As an advanced user, I do think that they would be more open to advanced hidden settings than they are today. However, I feel like they have switched stance a bit lately, if you consider the "Use Connect:AMP as rear speaker" feature that was introduced.
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I'Ve found myself today with that problem with my yamaha av receiver, reading this thread I know sonos would do nothing and I'm fckd.
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I'Ve found myself today with that problem with my yamaha av receiver, reading this thread I know sonos would do nothing and I'm fckd. Look at all the other threads. You pay ****loads of money for Sonos speakers and I'm not saying I don't enjoy them, but delay compensation is something you should expect.
Sorry for the thread necromancy here -- this thread popped up on Google and I had the exact same issue.

I also own an Apple HomePod and got curious to see how it would handle this scenario with the release of AirPlay 2 and Apple's take on multi-room audio.

No delays with AirPlay 2 on Apple TV 4K with HomePod, even with complex DPSs on the receiver like DTS Nerual:X.

So that's great news for those of us with Apple devices looking forward to Sonos releasing Airplay 2. (Although I guess we'll see if Sonos can utilize it without delays to other non-Sonos devices).

Apple has no shortage of talented engineers and money they can throw at a problem, and yet Airplay 2 was something that took them a *long* time to come up with. Perhaps that says something about the level of difficulty designing such a system. On the other hand, Sonos also has a lot of great talent, so...

What's also neat is that there were no delays on AirPlay 2 multi-room with DSP on the Apple TV without having to configure any settings, both on Direct mode as well as DTS Nerual:X. The Apple TV is connected with HDMI (sending a stereo signal in my test), maybe it can tell whether the receiver is using a DSP? Or I wonder if the HomePod is actually using its microphone array to adjust timing in realtime.
Anyway, pretty cool!

EDIT: Actually, it turns out that there _is_ a slight delay when using DIRECT mode, except it's the Apple TV actually being a bit faster than the HomePod. Since the Apple TV 4K has only digital outputs, they probably figure that people will be using DSPs. I like this approach better, tbh. Sonos could just have a switch to shave 50ms of the buffer for the Connect only if people would like to use a DSP. Or they could make the analog output use standard timing, and accelerate the digital outputs by a bit.

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