When using the pre-outs of the ZonePlayer into a receiver or Pre/pro, and then having that unit process the signal in any way that requires digitizing the input, there is obviously a slight delay. Using the speaker outputs of the zoneplayer in an area close by results in the dreaded "echo" effect.
Most receivers (newer/better) have adjustable delay, but it doesn't do any good in this case, as the signal is already delayed too much.
If the zoneplayer had a programmable / adjustable delay for the speaker output only, you could utilize the built in amplifier (which is actually quite good, by my ears.)
This would be a VERY usefull addition.
- Thanks
Chris
Delay compensation when used with AV receivers
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.
+1 from me.
A user-definable delay should not be hard to do. As others have pointed out, this already occurs internally as the Sonos jiggles the mesh network between devices to sync the sound in a group.
It drives me nuts with my Yamaha RX-A3000 in party mode and the approx 300ms delay it introduces. Direct sort of works, but I want to use all 5 speakers and the sub for general low-level listening throughout the house + plus the S5.
A user-definable delay should not be hard to do. As others have pointed out, this already occurs internally as the Sonos jiggles the mesh network between devices to sync the sound in a group.
It drives me nuts with my Yamaha RX-A3000 in party mode and the approx 300ms delay it introduces. Direct sort of works, but I want to use all 5 speakers and the sub for general low-level listening throughout the house + plus the S5.
+1 from me as well.
All modern amps introduce a delay of some magnitude so I feel this is a feature that should really be already incorporated for the trumped party feature.
Thanks!
All modern amps introduce a delay of some magnitude so I feel this is a feature that should really be already incorporated for the trumped party feature.
Thanks!
Another +1.
Just finished setting up my system for the first time, 1 x Play5, 2 x Play 3, 1 x Connect through a home theatre system.. set them all to party mode and immediately noticed the delay/lag introduced by the home theatre systems audio processing when compared to the other units..
Turned off the processing as best I could on the home theatre.. (however I don't think I can turn it completely off)..
Went straight into the Sonos software to look for the delay compensation values... oh wait, it turns out that it doesn't offer that :-(
Now I'm aware it isn't the Sonos systems fault, but I honestly would have expected some manual delay compensation in the software!
I suspect I'll either have to throw out the brand new Connect.. or the Home Theatre, because the echo is pretty disturbing/disorienting in party mode.
Just finished setting up my system for the first time, 1 x Play5, 2 x Play 3, 1 x Connect through a home theatre system.. set them all to party mode and immediately noticed the delay/lag introduced by the home theatre systems audio processing when compared to the other units..
Turned off the processing as best I could on the home theatre.. (however I don't think I can turn it completely off)..
Went straight into the Sonos software to look for the delay compensation values... oh wait, it turns out that it doesn't offer that :-(
Now I'm aware it isn't the Sonos systems fault, but I honestly would have expected some manual delay compensation in the software!
I suspect I'll either have to throw out the brand new Connect.. or the Home Theatre, because the echo is pretty disturbing/disorienting in party mode.
Another +1 from me.
Received my new Yamaha RX-A1010 yesterday, and as I expected after reading this thread, and in particular rune's Yamaha experience (post #16), there is an objectionable echo. This arises when the Living Room ZP90's digital output is routed into the new AV Receiver for decoding, and then this zone is linked with the adjacent Computer Room ZP120.
Curiously, unlike davey400 (post #41), my old Harman Kardon AVR4500 was OK in this situation.
Might be able to get round this by running an analogue stereo RCA pair to a 2nd Audio In on the RX-A1010, with it setup for 2ch Stereo and Direct. But as rune has said earlier, this might mess up my plan to bi-amp the front speakers. Quality listening would be via the optical connection, with this analogue alternative exclusively for Party Time!
Does anyone, particularly Yamaha users, have any comments or a fix for this?
An expensive workaround would be to add a stereo pair of Play:3s into the open plan Dining Room, and use these for parties. Come on Sonos, I should not need to do this!
BTW, this delay feature request seems important enough and relatively easy to implement in software, that surely Sonos must eventually react?
Received my new Yamaha RX-A1010 yesterday, and as I expected after reading this thread, and in particular rune's Yamaha experience (post #16), there is an objectionable echo. This arises when the Living Room ZP90's digital output is routed into the new AV Receiver for decoding, and then this zone is linked with the adjacent Computer Room ZP120.
Curiously, unlike davey400 (post #41), my old Harman Kardon AVR4500 was OK in this situation.
Might be able to get round this by running an analogue stereo RCA pair to a 2nd Audio In on the RX-A1010, with it setup for 2ch Stereo and Direct. But as rune has said earlier, this might mess up my plan to bi-amp the front speakers. Quality listening would be via the optical connection, with this analogue alternative exclusively for Party Time!
Does anyone, particularly Yamaha users, have any comments or a fix for this?
An expensive workaround would be to add a stereo pair of Play:3s into the open plan Dining Room, and use these for parties. Come on Sonos, I should not need to do this!
BTW, this delay feature request seems important enough and relatively easy to implement in software, that surely Sonos must eventually react?
Just added the Peachtree Decco2 with a ZP90 to my basement. And damn.. creating a house echo chamber!
My lovely Sonos is slowly disintegrating.
C'mon So-nono-s, not asking for fancy new features here.
My lovely Sonos is slowly disintegrating.
C'mon So-nono-s, not asking for fancy new features here.
I picked up a Play:5 yesterday to add to my Connect hooked up to my Yamaha YSP sound bar. What an incredible disappointment to hear the out of sync music in party mode when I played it with all my guests over. How is a configurable delay not a feature a feature yet? Only enable it when there is a Connect in the network if you have to Sonos. Come on!!
The Play:5 is going back to the big box store until Sonos adds a feature to fix the out of sync issues.
The Play:5 is going back to the big box store until Sonos adds a feature to fix the out of sync issues.
hokieperogi,
Was the YAMAHA ahead or behind the SONOS?
Was the YAMAHA ahead or behind the SONOS?
I previously anticipated having to listen via my CONNECT (ZP90) analogue output when linking adjacent zones to avoid the dreaded echo effect arising.
My CONNECT (ZonePlayer 90) is connected to my new Yamaha RX-A1010 AV Receiver by digital optical cable. A suggestion from Sonos Technical Support yesterday prompted me to actually try this out yesterday. I followed their advice and also ran in an analogue stereo RCA pair to a second (unused) audio input on the Yamaha amplifier. Selecting this input instead of the previous digital one virtually cures the problem. There is a tiny hint of echo, but I suspect this will not be apparent when linked ZPs are in their final locations. That is adjacent rooms, rather than 2xZPs in the same room as at present for testing. In any case this trace can be completely eliminated by switching the AV Receiver to 'Pure Direct'. This action removes all downstream DSP etc, and basically sends the incoming analogue audio straight through to the amps. So my final compromise will be to use the Yamaha's DAC for quality listening in my Living Room only, and revert to analogue for linked zones listening downstairs during parties and so on. As I have typed this, I have been listening to KBPK, and it sounds just fine.
Not a perfect solution, I still think Sonos should accept that a fair number of customers want to have at least one better quality zone and include an adjustment option in the software to eliminate the resultant echo. Hope this workaround is of interest to OP.
My CONNECT (ZonePlayer 90) is connected to my new Yamaha RX-A1010 AV Receiver by digital optical cable. A suggestion from Sonos Technical Support yesterday prompted me to actually try this out yesterday. I followed their advice and also ran in an analogue stereo RCA pair to a second (unused) audio input on the Yamaha amplifier. Selecting this input instead of the previous digital one virtually cures the problem. There is a tiny hint of echo, but I suspect this will not be apparent when linked ZPs are in their final locations. That is adjacent rooms, rather than 2xZPs in the same room as at present for testing. In any case this trace can be completely eliminated by switching the AV Receiver to 'Pure Direct'. This action removes all downstream DSP etc, and basically sends the incoming analogue audio straight through to the amps. So my final compromise will be to use the Yamaha's DAC for quality listening in my Living Room only, and revert to analogue for linked zones listening downstairs during parties and so on. As I have typed this, I have been listening to KBPK, and it sounds just fine.
Not a perfect solution, I still think Sonos should accept that a fair number of customers want to have at least one better quality zone and include an adjustment option in the software to eliminate the resultant echo. Hope this workaround is of interest to OP.
This post is based on one relating to the use of headphones, but as it is even more relevant to delay compensation, I have repeated the bones of it here too!
I now have a Teac UD-H01 USB DAC, having waited patiently for some months as it is a new product here. Purchased to provide a headphone outlet c/w volume level control to listen to my Sonos using my Bose QuietComfort 3 Noise-Cancelling Headphones, it serves that purpose very well when driven by the relevant ZP90's digital optical or coaxial o/p. Audio quality is excellent, with a warm bass that I find to my taste.
At my hifi vendor's suggestion, I also fed its output via an analogue stereo pair into my new Yamaha RX-A1010 AV Receiver, and was delighted to find the Teac DAC is not far removed from results I had last year with a Wyred4Sound Cullen modified ZP90. Although AQ was terrific, I did not keep the W4S model, because I had wireless issues and felt it ran too hot for comfort.
But of much more significance is that if this {ZP90-->UD-H01-->RX-A1010} zone is now linked with a ZP120 zone (currently they are both in the same room for experimentation), there is no perceptible timing difference between these two zones. And therefore no echo as reported elsewhere on this forum.
This avoids me having to run the optical cable of my last post from ZP90 to RX-A1010 for "quality listening", with a separate analogue stero pair to a second input on the amp to avoid the very obvious delay through the Yamaha box when "linked zones listening" is happening. While this latter solution certainly fixed the echo, it's a messy solution. Now one connection under the floor for both purposes, and using the Teac DAC for both! Neat.
This finding may offer a solution to OP suffering from this irritating problem. While Sonos may eventually implement a variable delay feature through software, I would not bank on it. This inexpensive wee box is well worth the outlay IMHO.
I now have a Teac UD-H01 USB DAC, having waited patiently for some months as it is a new product here. Purchased to provide a headphone outlet c/w volume level control to listen to my Sonos using my Bose QuietComfort 3 Noise-Cancelling Headphones, it serves that purpose very well when driven by the relevant ZP90's digital optical or coaxial o/p. Audio quality is excellent, with a warm bass that I find to my taste.
At my hifi vendor's suggestion, I also fed its output via an analogue stereo pair into my new Yamaha RX-A1010 AV Receiver, and was delighted to find the Teac DAC is not far removed from results I had last year with a Wyred4Sound Cullen modified ZP90. Although AQ was terrific, I did not keep the W4S model, because I had wireless issues and felt it ran too hot for comfort.
But of much more significance is that if this {ZP90-->UD-H01-->RX-A1010} zone is now linked with a ZP120 zone (currently they are both in the same room for experimentation), there is no perceptible timing difference between these two zones. And therefore no echo as reported elsewhere on this forum.
This avoids me having to run the optical cable of my last post from ZP90 to RX-A1010 for "quality listening", with a separate analogue stero pair to a second input on the amp to avoid the very obvious delay through the Yamaha box when "linked zones listening" is happening. While this latter solution certainly fixed the echo, it's a messy solution. Now one connection under the floor for both purposes, and using the Teac DAC for both! Neat.
This finding may offer a solution to OP suffering from this irritating problem. While Sonos may eventually implement a variable delay feature through software, I would not bank on it. This inexpensive wee box is well worth the outlay IMHO.
+ 1 for me!
@all:
I am will shortly replace my 20 years old Onkyo stereo amp (behind a zp90) with a new av receiver. Would like to buy again an Onkyo device.
Does anybody know if this problem exists with the new Onkyos? Is there a pure/stereo mode which is working without delay?
Thanks a million! :)
ozone
@all:
I am will shortly replace my 20 years old Onkyo stereo amp (behind a zp90) with a new av receiver. Would like to buy again an Onkyo device.
Does anybody know if this problem exists with the new Onkyos? Is there a pure/stereo mode which is working without delay?
Thanks a million! :)
ozone
I've owned 3 Onkyos, the latest a 607 model. None of them have shown any delay using Sonos. I know there are newer models out now, but Onkyo seems to have a good track record with their DSP modes. In any event, all the Onkyo's I've used have a pass thru or "pure" mode that allows you to bypass any DSP modes.
Thanks jgatie! Really appreciate it! ;)
I`m thinking about the Onkyo TX-NR809….
+ 1 for me too!
I've got just two ZP80, one in my living room, connected to a Home Theater (Philips HTS3251/12), and the second in my bedroom connected to a pretty old stereo system.
Home theater add some delay and unfortunately it is not possible to remove it completely, old creepy stereo add just nothing.
I need to close doors when party mode is selected in order to avoid a really unpleasant echo, quite a nonsense during party... ;)
I'd like to buy a new Play:3 for the kitchen, that is close to the living room, but I will not do it before this feature will be available: it would sound horrible without this missing feature.
Is there any prediction from Sonos regarding the user-definable delay feature?
Thank you in advance for any response. 🙂
I've got just two ZP80, one in my living room, connected to a Home Theater (Philips HTS3251/12), and the second in my bedroom connected to a pretty old stereo system.
Home theater add some delay and unfortunately it is not possible to remove it completely, old creepy stereo add just nothing.
I need to close doors when party mode is selected in order to avoid a really unpleasant echo, quite a nonsense during party... ;)
I'd like to buy a new Play:3 for the kitchen, that is close to the living room, but I will not do it before this feature will be available: it would sound horrible without this missing feature.
Is there any prediction from Sonos regarding the user-definable delay feature?
Thank you in advance for any response. 🙂
+1
Just about picked up a "Connect" this weekend at my local BB to add my HT as a "zone", but stumbled upon this thread while reading up on the subwoofer. Now I'm glad I did not.
Here's hoping they add this functionality.
Just about picked up a "Connect" this weekend at my local BB to add my HT as a "zone", but stumbled upon this thread while reading up on the subwoofer. Now I'm glad I did not.
Here's hoping they add this functionality.
Just about picked up a "Connect" this weekend at my local BB to add my HT as a "zone", but stumbled upon this thread while reading up on the subwoofer. Now I'm glad I did not.
Here's hoping they add this functionality.
Not all A/V receivers have a delay. I have an Onkyo that has no delay at all, and many receivers have a "direct" setting that bypasses any delay.
+1 for me too. my two sonos zp90s are connected to an av amp in the living room and a stereo in the kitchen and i can't listen to the same song at the same time on both because of the delay coming from the living room. sounds awful. surely adding an adjustable delay to the controller wouldn't be too complicated?
+ 1 from me!
I have the issue that my AV receiver connected to my Connect introduces a slight delay of a few milliseconds. Unfortunately, my amp does not have the option to allow a direct passthrough without any processing. Thus, I would be really happy if Sonos introduced the option to adjust room specific delays that would help compensate for the amp processing.
I have the issue that my AV receiver connected to my Connect introduces a slight delay of a few milliseconds. Unfortunately, my amp does not have the option to allow a direct passthrough without any processing. Thus, I would be really happy if Sonos introduced the option to adjust room specific delays that would help compensate for the amp processing.
Can't believe there is no option in Sonos to adjust delay comp. I just switched from a squeezebox setup where you can adjust delay caused by dac and other audio processing to remove echo from zones.
Really hope this is implemented in the future
Really hope this is implemented in the future
I have a Zp90 sending coax to my reciever (onkyo 805) in livingroom and a wireless play3 in the next room. The reciever makes a delay of 50-80 ms delay to the signal,so the rooms don't play in sync. I wish I could go to setup and choose/add a 80 ms (adjustable to what you need) delay to the play3 (or whatever you are using),so the rooms would play in sync!
+1
been asking for this for ages
been asking for this for ages
Same here, so I guess it won't happen. 😮
Which is a shame in this day and age of AVRs, external DACs and similar.. I see a potential Kickstarter project on a simple "digital delay unit", DIY and fully assembled 🆒
+1 for me - I notice when I run my Bose through the connect an odd echo in the house when the rest of the house is running Play 5's
+1 from me. This is crucial as I use a Sonos Play:5 and home theatre speakers in the same small apartment.
Enter your E-mail address. We'll send you an e-mail with instructions to reset your password.