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Prodigy II
Aug 18, 2024 10:20 PM UTC

Investigating my wonky groups

After deciding to sacrifice my unused Sonos speakers to the upgrade gods, it didn't take long to run into an issue.

Playing back music, I had repeatable on demand issues

  • If a group contained 4 or more devices, there is a delay of up to 12 seconds or music dropping in and out during the first 12 seconds on all devices except the group controller when starting music or changing tracks. By devices that includes a sub and/or stereo pairs, not 4 sonos rooms.
  • Changing group members in the app gets slow after the above and playing music. Track progress starts getting jumpy, cloud api calls take longer.

I have spent some time investigating and think I know what is causing my speakers to have issues while grouped, which also introduces random app behaviour, cannot contact messages, slow responding. More often than not, once the controller gets into a state it doesn't recover and requires fully closing and reopening to return to normal.

Why I didn’t instantly assuming it was my network

  • For the past 3 years my Sonos has been completely trouble free, unless I was fiddling in my network settings and broke something myself. I have visibility on data about most parts of my network, so it’s usually obvious when something is wonky

Changes of note during past year

  • I no longer have my Sonos amps, port or one of the subs - the lack of port may have contributed
  • I have added some Yamaha gear which uses multicast, including from my HT AVR → Sub, so it is obvious when multicast is playing up because the avr and sub separate.
  • I replaced my noisy all singing all dancing enterprise managed POE switches for more suitable, fanless managed SMB switches about a year ago. Far less settings to fiddle and break things with 😊
  • Following the upgrade was the first time I added a wifi network for a while. I’ve been on SonosNet for over a year. Maybe time to blame the missing port again 😁
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52 replies

Enthusiast II
Aug 23, 2024 4:44 PM UTC

 

@133133 People are people. Everyone has different experiences and backgrounds so has different views.

My intent with this thread is investigate into why my previously stable system is now unstable playing back the same music. Will I make mistakes or incorrect assumptions, sure. I will then adjust how I approach and investigate accordingly.

 

And it is much appreciated even though I am S1 and unaffected. It is beginning to resemble the IS / IS NOT I asked for in another thread - a basic fault definition as a starting point to understand what Sonos are dealing with which I’d hope they have even though they treat customers with disdain and like mushrooms. Of course, if they were to agree with your findings that would be admission of a wholly unacceptable software checkout plan. It would also explain why many people seem unaffected if they never group so many zones. It feels like just one area of issue amongst many but someone in Sonos must read this input and twig the effect of whatever architecture changes they’ve made.

 

The thing is whilst a little PITA for songs not or no longer being instantaneous, if there was a message informing the user that the system was taking time to fill buffers prior to playing there would be a bit more acceptance that hey, at least we know wtf is happening. Guys in labs trying stuff out on ethernet wired systems with 2 zones and limited sources likely?

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Prodigy II
Aug 23, 2024 6:22 PM UTC

There are certainly hardware differences between the ikea and sonos speakers even if using the same board as suggested by the online teardowns. My ikea speakers don’t have on board microphones, they have their own hardware identifiers so appear as Sonos devices with Ikea images and descriptions. Their target price point was lower than the Sonos speakers.

There could well be differences with music providers and how they provide the streams.

With Amazon and Apple supporting adaptive streams along with the Sonos Adaptive bit rate, they can switch as needed during playback based on changing bandwidth and capability.

It could provide an explanation for people seeing the Amazon lossless HD switching on and off, without noticeable disruption to playback and means things are operating as expected by design.

https://tech-blog.sonos.com/posts/happy-music-streaming-with-mpeg-dash/

 

Maybe Qobuz deliver differently using file based so my speakers can’t auto-switch and are doing the best they can with what is available, but it doesn’t interact well with the new firmware. It would provide an explanation for why there is the initial download burst, potentially of multiple chunks, to fill the buffer, before settling into a lower update rate to keep the buffer full until the track ends. 🤷

Unfortunately Qobuz withdrew their previously public api version and docs following people abusing it, so the details of how to access or what methods they provide for streaming are no longer readily available publicly.

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Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 10:04 AM UTC

It took longer than intended but I have finished the isolated testing I wanted to perform.

Isolated network setup.
Wifi router with all test lan to wan traffic allowed. Wan blocked.
Pi-Hole blocking disabled, all dns allowed.
No STP, loop protection or igmp snooping enabled on the switch or router.

Music to use needs to be on local library, Qobuz and Apple Music. Track changing will be performed in the order listed from queue and after download completes for Nas and Qobuz

  • Indila - Mini World. CD lossless
    Tracks: Derniere Dancer, Run Run, Mini World
  • Jessie Ware - That Feels Good. Hires lossless
    Tracks: Pearls, Begin Again, Shake the Bottle
  • Sade - Bring me home live. Stereo PCM from my bluray. Second local Hires lossless check
    Tracks: Your Love is King, Sweetest Taboo, No Ordinary Love

Sonos setup to test, which previously worked without issues and regularly used for all music local and Qobuz, Stereo Pair with Sub using Ikea gen 1 bookshelf with sub mini grouped with the Ikea gen 2 bookshelf

Tests to be repeated multiple times at different times of day on different days.

  • Ethernet Test - All devices wired with wifi disabled
  • SonosNet - Channel 11. Previously used for over a year without issues
  • Wifi - Channel 6. 2.4Ghz with 20Mhz width. Five out of seven speakers only support g/a so no point enabling n
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Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 10:14 AM UTC

Summary of test results

  Ethernet   SonosNet   Wifi  
  Group Max Stable Group Max Stable Group Max Stable
Indila
Nas
Qobuz
Apple

stable
stable
stable

7
7
7​​​​​​​

stable
unstable
unstable

5
3
3​​​​​​​

stable
unstable
unstable​​​​​​​

5
3
3​​​​​​​
Jessie Ware
Nas
Qobuz
Apple


stable
stable
stable


7
6
6


unstable
unstable
unstable


2
2
2


unstable
unstable
unstable​​​​​​​


2
2
2
Sade Nas stable 7 unstable 2 unstable 2

 

Max stable is the maximum devices where no interruption or disturbance occurs. On SonosNet and Wifi that meant using a stereo pair without the sub or two individual speakers in a group.

stable: track changes and playback plays without any disruption or disturbances.

unstable: volume fades down/up on random speakers, group members stop playing but recover and continue playing correctly until another stream change.

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Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 10:15 AM UTC

While one off failures were generally ignored, there were three notable one off failures

When The first Jessie Ware track (Pearls) from Qobuz was played. The group coordinator disappeared from network after ~12 seconds and grouped speakers went silent while it played out it's buffer. All other speakers pingable. Group coordinator no network response. Speakers in the 2.1 setup were missing from the app. After 10 minutes it didn't return so rebooted. App pop-up for new bookshelf speaker found after reboot with 2.1 setup still missing. Required full app close and restart to show correct speakers.

During later testing, When the second Jessie Ware track (Begin Again) from Qobuz was played the group coordinator went AWOL again after ~3 seconds. The App continued to update playback for ~2 minutes even though all speakers were silent. 'support/review' showed all speakers except the group coordinator. Eventually the app stopped showing playback and all 3 speakers in the 2.1 setup disappeared from the app. Again required reboot of the speaker to recover. App recovered when the speaker had finished booting.

An unstable switch to lossless with Apple caused the Sub to go AWOL and it didn't recovers when switching back to lossy. Playback became more stable as there was one less device. Again required a reboot of the speaker to recover.

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Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 10:17 AM UTC

Other observations

Nas and Qobuz have the same file based delivery pattern. Qobuz delivered ~3Mbps faster than the device file rate read from the Nas.

Apple is chunks with pauses between them throughout the entire track, the same way video streams deliver.

Nas an Qobuz provide no indication of the type of content being played back. From memory, I think the old App used to show CD and HD or Hires.

Apple lossless is predictable when it will switch streams. It starts playing lossy. 60 seconds later it will switch to another lossy stream, which will randomly cause a stutter as it switches. 30 seconds later it will switch to lossless. If lossless is unstable it will switch back to lossy 30 seconds later. Time to attempt to switch back to lossless increases.

Changing streams on Apple will reset back to lossy if the speakers haven't been playing lossless for long enough. Once enough time is spent successfully playing lossless the group will always attempt lossless first. Changing the group requires going through the training again.

Three groups of two devices (stereo pair, speaker and sub, two individual speakers grouped) would independently play different Hires music from any source without any issues.

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Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 10:20 AM UTC

Network traffic and behaviour during unstable period

Moved the speakers to SonosNet (it's only three). Laptop without IP collected mirror of the wired speaker port with wireshark.

When stable, regular STP, regular SSDP Notify of services available from each device.

When group members drop out and recover IGMP leave group is sent from each affected device. If they recover quickly, only one leave per device is sent. If it takes longer multiple leave group messages are sent.

An IGMP Leave group doesn't necessarily mean the device has left the group, it is issued by a process running on the device. The speaker recovering suggests a replacement process has started.

Once stable an IGMP group membership report is sent.

A timed curl to the support/review page takes 300-500ms on all devices when playback of hires content is stable. During unstable periods this increases to ~1 second for group members and 2-5 seconds for the group coordinator.

In a larger group which never recovers, multiple Leave group messages keep being issued, the group coordinator stops responding to requests for support/review, the Sonos App shows an empty queue, playback status is meaningless and it starts issuing mdns and arp broadcasts to all speakers. Nothing excessive, but will repeat until it gets a response.

If the group is large enough, all speakers struggle to play and eventually give up trying to play the current track and switches to the next track.

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Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 10:24 AM UTC

Thoughts

With the latest firmware the communication between speakers with Hires content and larger groups of my speakers appears to break easily. With the response times from the group coordinator increasing to seconds, the group members appear to replace the existing process with a new process which manages to re-establish communication.

Even on SonosNet there should be no issue with three devices playing back any content, yet for my Ikea speakers they are unable to provide stable playback of Hires content.

With the wifi AP on my main network, a wifi router isolating the speakers from my network with no other devices apart from an ipad, SonosNet, 2.4Ghz or 5Ghz wifi, the same behaviour is observed around when instability occurs. Suggestions of spending £x00 on new wireless mesh network for £300 of speakers that used to work is not a sensible or realistic idea. For Qobuz a work around would be to change the Qobuz device setting to only allow a max of CD streams for playback, but this should be unnecessary.

The lack of indication in the App about the stream being CD or HD/Hires makes it difficult for an end user to see what is being sent to them so can't identify what they are playing and if certain formats are giving them issues. Apple similarly makes no distinction between CD lossless and Hires lossless, so unless someone knows the format released by the artist/publisher they just see it as an issue with lossless.

It seems like whatever changes occurred in the new firmware isn't working well with my speakers. The communication between them is easily interrupted with more complex media formats.

The million dollar question is why?
I can speculate about multiple things that could cause it, but I think the answer lies within the devices and what is going on inside them, rather than external factors.

@Corry P I submitted 4 diagnostics reports over the weekend in case they would be useful for someone to look at.

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Prodigy III
Sep 2, 2024 10:29 AM UTC

Presumably you were using the new app to trigger everything? 

If so, do you see different behaviour if you use one of the desktop controllers or a 3rd party app like Sonophone? 

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Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 11:11 AM UTC

Presumably you were using the new app to trigger everything? 

If so, do you see different behaviour if you use one of the desktop controllers or a 3rd party app like Sonophone? 

Over the period I did the test as controller apps I used

Sonos versions

iOS 80.06.03 (06/08/2024)
iOS 80.07.03 (27/08/2024)

Firmware 16.3.1 build 80.1-55240

SonoPad 1.13.28.3

and also the Web App at play.sonos.com

My laptop is Linux, so doesn’t have the desktop controller on it. My only Windows machine, which has the desktop controller on it, is plugged into the TV on the wrong side of the router I used to isolate the Sonos devices and not realistic to wire in.

The controller made no difference, but SonoPad was more reflective of the status when devices where unstable, where as the Sonos App appeared to cache more and display the last know state for longer giving the appearance that everything was ok.

The incorrect identification occurred on the 06/08/2024 app, so may not have happened if it had occurred with fixes in the latest release.

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