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Prodigy II
Aug 18, 2024 10:20 PM UTC

Investigating my wonky groups

After deciding to sacrifice my unused Sonos speakers to the upgrade gods, it didn't take long to run into an issue.

Playing back music, I had repeatable on demand issues

  • If a group contained 4 or more devices, there is a delay of up to 12 seconds or music dropping in and out during the first 12 seconds on all devices except the group controller when starting music or changing tracks. By devices that includes a sub and/or stereo pairs, not 4 sonos rooms.
  • Changing group members in the app gets slow after the above and playing music. Track progress starts getting jumpy, cloud api calls take longer.

I have spent some time investigating and think I know what is causing my speakers to have issues while grouped, which also introduces random app behaviour, cannot contact messages, slow responding. More often than not, once the controller gets into a state it doesn't recover and requires fully closing and reopening to return to normal.

Why I didn’t instantly assuming it was my network

  • For the past 3 years my Sonos has been completely trouble free, unless I was fiddling in my network settings and broke something myself. I have visibility on data about most parts of my network, so it’s usually obvious when something is wonky

Changes of note during past year

  • I no longer have my Sonos amps, port or one of the subs - the lack of port may have contributed
  • I have added some Yamaha gear which uses multicast, including from my HT AVR → Sub, so it is obvious when multicast is playing up because the avr and sub separate.
  • I replaced my noisy all singing all dancing enterprise managed POE switches for more suitable, fanless managed SMB switches about a year ago. Far less settings to fiddle and break things with 😊
  • Following the upgrade was the first time I added a wifi network for a while. I’ve been on SonosNet for over a year. Maybe time to blame the missing port again 😁
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52 replies

Corry P
Sonos Staff
Sep 2, 2024 12:23 PM UTC

Hi @sigh 

Thanks for the diagnostics.

I am 99% sure that this is the cause of the problems:

This indicates a large amount of multicast traffic not destined for a Sonos device reaching and flooding the Group Coordinator’s RX buffer.

The solution to this is usually to enable IGMP Snooping/Filtering on your network - either by enabling some router settings, or by fitting an IGMP-capable switch between the router and the wired Sonos component. Alternatively, use a packet sniffer to find the source of the flooding and take action to prevent it.

Aside from this, I’d also recommend making a wired speaker the Group Coordinator - I can see that the wired speaker is not part of the group, but if you were to not only include it, but were to make it the GC, you may see additional improvements - but, I’d take care of the multicast flooding first.

I hope this helps.

 

 

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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
Prodigy III
Sep 2, 2024 12:45 PM UTC

@Corry P Would the multicast flooding show up as dropped packets on the br0 interface? 

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Corry P
Sonos Staff
Sep 2, 2024 12:56 PM UTC

Hi @Ian_S 

Good question - I have no idea, so I asked someone else: they think so, but are not sure.

I guess we have different ways of looking at things - for example, I didn’t read any of this thread beyond the opening post. I figured it would have only served to confuse me, and I found the answer in the diagnostics where I thought I might.

Sorry I can’t be of more help.

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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
Prodigy III
Sep 2, 2024 1:04 PM UTC

Thanks @Corry P, the reason I ask is because I see a large number of packet drops on my Sonos speakers except for some weird reason one Play:3 … I have some instability and if there’s something other than Sonos causing a lot of multicast traffic it would be nice to be able to track it down and if possible stop it. 

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Corry P
Sonos Staff
Sep 2, 2024 1:13 PM UTC

Hi @Ian_S 

It’s always best to ask the speakers - please submit a support diagnostic and let me know here when you have. I’ll be happy to take a look for you.

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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
Prodigy III
Sep 2, 2024 1:27 PM UTC

Sent… 😉 There is a support case open… 

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sigh
sighAuthor
Prodigy II
Sep 2, 2024 2:20 PM UTC

Hi @sigh 

Thanks for the diagnostics.

I am 99% sure that this is the cause of the problems:

This indicates a large amount of multicast traffic not destined for a Sonos device reaching and flooding the Group Coordinator’s RX buffer.

The solution to this is usually to enable IGMP Snooping/Filtering on your network - either by enabling some router settings, or by fitting an IGMP-capable switch between the router and the wired Sonos component. Alternatively, use a packet sniffer to find the source of the flooding and take action to prevent it.

Aside from this, I’d also recommend making a wired speaker the Group Coordinator - I can see that the wired speaker is not part of the group, but if you were to not only include it, but were to make it the GC, you may see additional improvements - but, I’d take care of the multicast flooding first.

I hope this helps.

 

 

Interesting, I did briefly try with igmp snooping enabled on the switch, but it didn’t improve things so switched it off again.

I’ll go back through the capture logs because I would have expected that much from another source to be easily visible and stand out like a sore thumb. The only external sources would be the iPad, router, switch or laptop without an IP running wireshark capturing the mirrored port.

I’d avoided using the speaker wired and providing SonosNet so it was dedicated purely to acting as the gateway.

I’ll also give things a shuffle around and see if that helps.

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Prodigy III
Sep 2, 2024 2:39 PM UTC

@sigh It is interesting with your test case as I’m assuming it was a dedicated network for testing just Sonos, and there shouldn’t have been anything else multi-casting … I’m equally confused by why in my network the Play:3 speaker appears immune to the large number of logical dropped packets that all my other speakers seem to get… 

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Corry P
Sonos Staff
Sep 2, 2024 3:35 PM UTC

Hi @Ian_S 

I see no evidence of multicast flooding on your network.

The Play:3 is definitely struggling a bit - it’s CPU usage is pegged at 100%, and I suspect this will be the reason behind any playback issues on it. It also has only 1660 bytes of free memory. Please try a reboot of the Play:3.

As for the rest of your Sonos system (well, and the Play:3 too), it seems the main issue is that the speakers are occasionally not getting connected to WiFi when they try - I see deauthorisation errors. This used to occur back before we supported 5GHz, but a router would try to steer a speaker on to 5GHz anyway. This is happening with multiple speakers and both APs. I’m not sure why this is happening, but I recommend that you give SonosNet a go by re-enabling WiFi on your ethernet-wired Port: Settings » [room with Port] » Port » Enable WiFi - this will result in less DEAUTHs and better connectivity, hopefully.

The answer may be in our Supported WiFi modes and security standards for Sonos products help page and in your router’s settings. Please ensure your router is conforming to our network requirements as an alternative to using SonosNet. It may help to reboot the router by switching it off for at least 30 seconds. Please reboot the second AP afterwards.

I don’t actually see any recent playback errors (1 three days ago, and others 22 days ago) - if you see lost packets but don’t hear any playback issues, I wouldn't worry to much about them.

I hope this helps.

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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
Prodigy III
Sep 2, 2024 4:22 PM UTC

Thanks @Corry P , and it begs lots more questions, however I’m not sure polluting this thread is the right place? Happy for you to move this to its own thread? 

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