The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
January 23, 2020
570 replies
22877 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

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Show previous replies

chickentender

Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial. Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well…. It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

Am I missing something obvious here. You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent. Why is this not at 100 percent.

I’ve never ran inputs that have variable output gain at 100% as a matter of course. It normally leads to signal distortion when using the max capable output that a given device can handle/provide. I’ve no direct experience with Echo devices and this is just old rule of thumb for my part, but I’d wager the signal is cleaner when backed off. Might not be true here for plenty of reasons I’m not aware of.

K

KumarAuthor

@chickentender : I doubt this applies to things like Alexa app. And it definitely does not apply to the Connect/Port - indeed that one has a fixed output level option in it, where it is always at 100%.

As do almost all CD players, by the way.

M

MikeOinToronto

Lyricist III

Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial. Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well…. It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

Am I missing something obvious here. You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent. Why is this not at 100 percent.

I’ve never ran inputs that have variable output gain at 100% as a matter of course. It normally leads to signal distortion when using the max capable output that a given device can handle/provide. I’ve no direct experience with Echo devices and this is just old rule of thumb for my part, but I’d wager the signal is cleaner when backed off. Might not be true here for plenty of reasons I’m not aware of.

The discussion goes back to digital volume controls and the way they function. And this was primarily an issue with 16 bit volume controls I believe that are less theoretically relevant these days. But even if you are 100 percent correct it still is likely the reason why his output is much lower. If there are two volume controls in the chain they will add together. He is attenuating ten percent of the signal before it gets to the preamp.

Now he may choose to use 90 percent on the app (for real or imagined sound preferences) but then the preamp will have to be turned up higher for the same overall volume. His concernvseemed to be that his volume knob on the preamp has to be much higher with the echo than other devices.

T

train_nerd

Trending Lyricist I

Echo Link on the way to see if it plays (pun intended) nicer than Inputs or Dots. Appreciate the commentary on it. Will experiment with Link-out/receiver-in digital and analog options. Dots going back, swap out for Echo Link on sunk cost and additional other credits. Will hold on to one Echo Input and test with Connect Amp Line-In once the Echo Link is going, thus allowing preservation of the legacy Connect Amp. Reports follow on completion of trials.

We still love the Sonos functionality here, particularly alarm features that let user select source, e.g. TuneIn station or Sirius XM. Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both. Larger question remains about preferred echosystem: Sonos, Echo, or both(yikes).

Spoke to Anthem today about Echo low input experience here, and rep reported it ought to work. Nothing special about their receivers/inputs that would explain my observation. He reported he personally had similar set up. He spontaneously speculated low voltage output from Echo, but had no direct experience while passing along reported-here advice to ensure Echo device and Alexa apps be set at high end of output/volume. Further, they reported no adverse effect on receiver by running it at high volume to accommodate my low Echo Input/Dot experience.

M

MikeOinToronto

Lyricist III

Echo Link on the way to see if it plays (pun intended) nicer than Inputs or Dots. Appreciate the commentary on it. Will experiment with Link-out/receiver-in digital and analog options. Dots going back, swap out for Echo Link on sunk cost and additional other credits. Will hold on to one Echo Input and test with Connect Amp Line-In once the Echo Link is going, thus allowing preservation of the legacy Connect Amp. Reports follow on completion of trials.

We still love the Sonos functionality here, particularly alarm features that let user select source, e.g. TuneIn station or Sirius XM. Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both. Larger question remains about preferred echosystem: Sonos, Echo, or both(yikes).

Spoke to Anthem today about Echo low input experience here, and rep reported it ought to work. Nothing special about their receivers/inputs that would explain my observation. He reported he personally had similar set up. He spontaneously speculated low voltage output from Echo, but had no direct experience while passing along reported-here advice to ensure Echo device and Alexa apps be set at high end of output/volume. Further, they reported no adverse effect on receiver by running it at high volume to accommodate my low Echo Input/Dot experience.

Did you turn the volume on the Alexa app from 90 percent to 100 percent. I believe this will fix your issue regardless of what echo device you choose.

K

KumarAuthor

Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both.

There are plenty of hidden features in the Alexa app, so be sure to explore fully. Plus, there are differences in the app for phones v that for computers. The former has many more features, but the one for computers has a few things that the one for phones does not have. So worth exploring both.

I often use the app commands to drive my wired to Sonos devices, voice is often not appropriate. And during parties I hit the mic off button on the Echo to stop Alexa from thinking that people are calling her and then interjecting with weird comments across the grouped zones. That works fine, and shuts her up. Whether Amazon continues to listen in or not, I haven’t the time to care. No one is plotting the next bombing at my parties, and if Amazon want add to its servers one more banal set of conversations to billions others, they are welcome to do that.

K

KumarAuthor

Spending some time on the other threads keep delivering interesting insights:

Spence said this in July 2018, on the record: “what we have done is made those products better every year through the software updates that you get, which really are included in the purchase price that you paid up front." His exact words.

Now, Sonos also has sold to me, as to the rest of the world, a whole house system.

But now they are telling me that for that to survive, I need to keep my 3 legacy products and 4 modern products in legacy system mode, where the modern products will no longer get better - something that per Spence, I have already paid for.

So, the logical conclusion from the above is that I am due some refund from Sonos on my four play 1 units and one Sub which will remain in legacy system mode and not get better although Sonos has collected the money to make them better. Because unless they remain in that mode, my whole house system that continued to be sold to me as such when I bought the play 1 units and the Sub, will not work as such.

Over to @Ryan S for a response or rebuttal.

K

KumarAuthor

Equally interesting is the response from the usual suspects defending Sonos in this instance as well :grin:

R

RDog

Enthusiast II

@RDog : To repeat what I have said elsewhere - Since the Port can work with any product via its output jacks, what’s to stop you from buying a bunch of cheap Ports ( I am sure that the price point of the Port has nothing to do with costs), and using them with your choice of third party speakers? You get all the Sonos functionality, while the Sonos top line is damaged - and even blown out of the water once everyone starts adopting this obvious approach.

The device I envisioned would have no line outs or other audio outputs - all comms with (legacy) Sonos devices would be over the network.

Therefore, you could not use it with “your choice of third party speakers”, only with Sonos devices.

For Sonos to sell a cheap Port type device, they simply have to allow it to work only with Sonos products - which then should be dumb speakers.

Yes, that’s the idea. Allowing the formerly smart speakers to live on as good sounding networked speakers having had the smart and streaming functionality off-boarded to new, inexpensive (less-durable) modules.

Amazon and Google can sell similar at cost - or even below cost - because they do not need the top line from these products. Sonos does not have that luxury.

The opportunity for Sonos is to disaggregate their expensive smart speakers physically - replaceable smart modules sold at or below cost, docked into speakers that sound as good as they do today, like the old iPod dock speakers, but with proprietary comms. Then the Sonos smart module can be replaced every 3-4 years even, while the speakers can be built for decades of service required by their higher price points.

They could indeed take that approach for new models, but not past or present, hence the approach outlined above, delivering on that philosophy but for legacy and current devices.