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January 23, 2020

The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

  • January 23, 2020
  • 570 replies
  • 22877 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S  to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

 

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    570 replies

    melvimbe
    February 4, 2020

    Does anyone out there have experience with Echo Link rather than Echo Input or Echo Dot?  The Link appears designed for A/V system use, not so sure for Input or Dot?  (Link price point speaks for itself begging question why would it be allowed to be done more inexpensively…..or am I thinking too hard)

     

    Don’t have a link, but I did take a look at the specs rather closely.  When it first came out, the audio input could not be casted to other Alexa speakers in your home, but it looks like the feature is supported now.  It states that it doesn’t support TV sources, so I assume your audio is buffered to the point where it will be out of sync with any video.  

     

    I would say it’s a pretty good idea if you want to build an Alexa multiroom system, and echo speakers are generally good enough for your needs, with a few rooms with full AV receivers and such.  The biggest concern I’d have is that Amazon is really lacking a solution for TV audio.  Yes, your AV receiver can handle that, and then you can switch to the Link’s input for music, but I have to expect that Amazon will come out with a better solution eventually.  They clearly know that video is important.

    Danny
    KumarAuthor
    February 4, 2020

    The Link is a strange animal, because it only seems to exist to make Echo tech palatable to the HiFi set; after all, an Echo Dot can be wired to even a Dynaudio active speaker pair to yield the Dynaudio sound for all the Echo is playing. By voice command or Amazon cast.

    But which HiFi user will believe that the DAC in the Dot will be good enough? - sacrilege to even think that, let along blind test it to decide. So, the Link that looks like HiFi kit, to overcome that prejudice, that also exists for the Port by the way - Audiophiles look down on Sonos with the same fervour they look down on Echo. And so I don't think too many Audiophiles will suffer to have even a Link in their set ups. The only buyers will be those that need the additional connectivity options it offers.

    There are two big holes in the Amazon portfolio, of which the TV one is being attempted by the Echo Studio with Atmos - I have no idea how well that works. The second hole is NAS play and I suspect that Amazon may decide to not address that bit of the market.

    But an Echo Studio Pair starts getting into price points where the same service life issues will start raising their head.

    melvimbe
    February 4, 2020

    Ken, how do you feel about Sonos dishonesty about this recycle program? Remember when they told customers over and over that it had nothing to do with obsoleting older products? Did you pass that message on to your children?

     

    We don’t know exactly when Sonos management decided to embark on this legacy program.  While it seems entirely possible that Sonos had the legacy program all planned out when they initiated the trade up program it’s also possible that they either did not have the legacy decision made yet (not very likely) or there was nothing firm planned.  Perhaps they originally were going to create the legacy program in 2021 and did not think it was wise to announce it over a year in advance.  We know that Sonos recently bought the Snips voice assistant company, and perhaps the integration into Sonos products has changed their production schedule.  

     

    Regardless of all that, the announcement of the legacy program was not ideal, and was not as much notice as most customers would want and expect to see for such a change.   Personally, I am waiting to hold judgement until May when more information is available, as well as the months after when other announcements might be made that shed light on the reasoning behind certain decisions.   Or maybe that information never comes.  No one needs to wait for that information though, and can obviously make their own decision about how they want to proceed.

    Danny
    melvimbe
    February 4, 2020

    But which HiFi user will believe that the DAC in the Dot will be good enough? - sacrilege to even think that, let along blind test it to decide. So, the Link that looks like HiFi kit, to overcome that prejudice, that also exists for the Port by the way - Audiophiles look down on Sonos with the same fervour they look down on Echo. And so I don't think too many Audiophiles will suffer to have even a Link in their set ups. The only buyers will be those that need the additional connectivity options it offers.

     

    I see two other benefits to the Link.  The more prominent reason is that the you don’t need to have the dot, more importantly, the Alexa microphones, directly wired to your AV system.  As an example, you can have a dot sitting on the table next to your couch, instead of the TV/AV stand across the room..where you might need to shout to be heard.  It provides a necessary wireless separation between the microphone and speaker.  True, you could probably accomplish the same thing with using 2 dots that are properly setup with groups, but it’s not as elegant.

     

    The other aspect, and I’m not exactly sure this is in place, but you could use the link to switch inputs (between streaming and line-in) rather than having to use your AV receiver to switch remotes.  It could be that like the playbar and other Sonos products, the devices can automatically switch to the line in sources when audio is detected.  That’s a minor convenience overall I think, but one that tends to go along way in simplifying everyday use.  

    Danny
    KumarAuthor
    February 4, 2020

    The other thing about Amazon - or Google for that matter - is that if in future I am not going to stay in bed with Sonos, it would be silly to jump into bed with either of these in a similar way, exposed in a similar way to their antics. But one cannot wish away their cheap smart front ends because I cannot see any one else being able to make agnostic cheap smart front ends that work as well. So, quality third party speakers with these front ends as and when the existing Sonos hardware dies. Of course, one also hopes that this death is so far into the future that things have changed and even better approaches have become possible.

    KumarAuthor
    February 4, 2020

     The more prominent reason is that the you don’t need to have the dot, more importantly, the Alexa microphones, directly wired to your AV system.  As an example, you can have a dot sitting on the table next to your couch, instead of the TV/AV stand across the room..where you might need to shout to be heard. 

    I find myself using Amazon cast as much as I use voice commands - except when I am alone and voice does not get embarrassing. So that addresses this issue for me. Spotify Connect too would serve to do this well.

    The other neat way of doing voice discreetly is via the Alexa voice remote that can sit next to you, so you don't have to shout across the room to the wired to speaker Dot.

     

    chickentender
    February 4, 2020

    Progress (not) update:

    Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

    Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

    This is really a deficit/fail for me since I have multiple A/V or speaker amps in the house, and it practically limits adoption of Echo "ecosystem".

    The current ZP-90 is connected to A/V system via optical-in, and using that to A/V receiver is perfectly fine without having to set volume way higher on A/V receiver.

    Maybe a receiver firmware update would fix it since that is long overdue.  Will try that, and explore input options other than AUX, receiver mfg advice/settings. Tale of woe is tiresome pull of HEAVY A/V cabinet away from wall, crawling around, testing, pushing cabinet back.

    Anybody have a point of view about whether this could be fixed with Echo device firmware update?

    BTW off topic, Dot price decreased $20 ($50 earlier) during Superbowl, overnight from previous day purchase.  Request to Amazon to credit price difference met with separate refusal from four different representatives during my effort to escalate, obviously trying to wear me out (or pad incentive driven representative compensation?) Unfortunate if not pathetic Amazon “resistance is futile” cannot/will not handle gesture of good faith. End rant.

     

    Never having to deal with Amazon customer service more than I already must is reason enough for me to eschew this approach. :) Amongst other reasons. But otherwise, good on you guys for soldiering forward!

    Lyricist III
    February 4, 2020

    Progress (not) update:

    Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

    Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

     

     

    Am I missing something obvious here.  You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent.  Why is this not at 100 percent.

    KumarAuthor
    February 4, 2020

    @MikeOinToronto : good catch!

    KumarAuthor
    February 4, 2020

    There is a noticeable dialling down of Sonos presence on this thread. Either on their own, or under orders to do so. Not complaining, we seem to be doing ok without it:-)).