The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
January 23, 2020
570 replies
22878 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

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C

Cisume

Enthusiast II

For those that would like to have a background summary, a link to what feels like a balanced article:

https://www.slashgear.com/sonos-nightmare-was-inevitable-24607638/

Here is another one :

https://slate.com/technology/2008/08/the-death-of-planned-obsolescence.html

Sonos’ approach signals a larger shift in the gadget industry, a business that has long titillated its customers with short-lived thrills—what gadget-lovers derisively call “planned obsolescence.”

now it seems a shift back to the gadgets :wink:

chickentender

There is one aspect where I can add relevant value to this thread, based on experience with audiophile kits for a decade and Sonos for another and that is on the subject of the sound quality via Line In.

There is absolutely no difference in the heard sound quality between Apple Music invoked via the Sonos app, and Apple Music invoked on an Echo device and played via a wire connected Connect Amp. It isn't even necessary for the wire to be anything more expensive than a bog standard RCA stereo cable - I have found that these days excellent cables in varying lengths are sold by Amazon Basics at very reasonable prices. But any electronics shop should also have perfectly adequate ones.

Audiophiles may also point out that there is an additional analog to digital conversion involved here that takes place in the Connect Amp - again, it does not result in any audible difference.

To-date, this hasn’t been my experience but I very much suspect that’s purely because my only A/B testing done has been A-direct native sonos from the Connect, and B-line-in play back from Connect with a smart TV source. I reckon if I compared the native playback with a music-oriented device (line-in to Connect) playing the same content then my experience would match what you’re saying.
Now I’m waiting for the Node 2i to arrive, so there’ll be some definite near-future A/B’ing upcoming in my house. :)

K

KumarAuthor

My experience and research suggests that cases where audible differences survive single variable controlled double blind tests are close to non existent, and probably non existent in a typical domestic environment with an elevated noise floor. In simple words, sound quality will not be an issue as long as the source is identical and sound levels are the same.

K

KumarAuthor

@Cisume you mean a return to planned obsolescence, surely.

K

KumarAuthor

I am attaching a photo of my dining space zone to show that the approach I have promoted here need not look like a kludge. It also shows how to keep old products doing what they have been built to do, deliver music.

The Quads were bought in 2002, Sonos in 2012, and Echo Show 5 in 2019. Working very well together even so. When I group this zone with others, or when I want to have local music on the NAS to be the source, I use the Sonos app and forego artwork display on the Echo; when only this zone is used for streaming sources, I use the Echo via voice or phone commands, and it shows album art all the time. And where You Tube premium is the service, the videos.The Echo Show wall paper is my tribute to quality vinyl, which just became too much effort to keep using, and got sold to someone that still uses it.

I refuse therefore to consign this brilliant Connect Amp to any landfill as long as it can amplify source signals. Also for the reason that even today it is not easy to find an equally capable HiFi amplifier that can sit in its footprint, delivering equally reliable and distortion free amplification, from an always on, always in standby mode, effortlessly. Other than the Sonos Amp. But I do not need its higher power, and it will do nothin for me that is more than what the Connect Amp already does so well. Even after whatever upgrades Sonos may provide the new amp with after May 2020, if I was to dump the Connect Amp. Why then should I, and add my bit to global waste? Even if I could afford to do this?

chickentender

I am attaching a photo of my dining space zone to show that the approach I have promoted here need not look like a kludge. It also shows how to keep old products doing what they have been built to do, deliver music.

The Quads were bought in 2002, Sonos in 2012, and Echo Show 5 in 2019. Working very well together even so. When I group this zone with others, or when I want to have local music on the NAS to be the source, I use the Sonos app and forego artwork display on the Echo; when only this zone is used for streaming sources, I use the Echo via voice or phone commands, and it shows album art all the time. And where You Tube premium is the service, the videos.The Echo Show wall paper is my tribute to quality vinyl, which just became too much effort to keep using, and got sold to someone that still uses it.

I refuse therefore to consign this brilliant Connect Amp to any landfill as long as it can amplify source signals. Also for the reason that even today it is not easy to find an equally capable HiFi amplifier that can sit in its footprint, delivering equally reliable and distortion free amplification, from an always on, always in standby mode, effortlessly. Other than the Sonos Amp. But I do not need its higher power, and it will do nothin for me that is more than what the Connect Amp already does so well. Even after whatever upgrades Sonos may provide the new amp with after May 2020, if I was to dump the Connect Amp. Why then should I, and add my bit to global waste? Even if I could afford to do this?

Our uses are quite similar… And I agree. The line-in and grouping alone warrants keeping them around.

For my part however, there will never be a “big-three” device in my true audio experience, for convenience or otherwise. This is simply a personal choice not to provide any of my personal dollars (at least to audio ends) to Google, Amazon, or Apple, neither hardware nor software (by way of streaming service choices). I have a couple Google Home Minis in the home and a Sonos One with Google enabled (only because it’s in the kitchen and I ask it to set timers for cooking - literally its only use there haha), but I *really* do not want any sort of further marriage of these…. For reasons we’re seeing playout, as well as personal convictions that are likely futility but at least some amount of naive comfort to me.

D

dan8558

Prominent Collaborator I

@Kumar, thanks for the photo of your setup. Can you stream Spotify using an Amazon Echo Show or are you limited to Amazon?

I plan to keep my system on legacy software and see how long things keep working. After that, not sure what I’ll do. Being on a continuous “upgrade” cycle is not appealing. I own a Connect Amp (actually ZP-120), Connect and gen 1 Play 5. I also own 2 new Sonos Amps, a product I really like as I use it with both TVs because I dislike sound bars. We love the ease of use of Sonos. It’s the one piece of tech my wife has no trouble using. I always knew this day would come, but I guess I avoided thinking through the implications. This is a real disaster for Sonos. I’ve used their products for 12 years, but have started looking at other options - a situation I couldn’t have imagined 2 weeks ago. I don’t know how they’ll sell their more expensive products now. I aspired to own a stereo pair of gen 2 Play 5s. I have 1 now, but won’t be buying a companion for it as my current one could be “retired” by Sonos in just 3 years. I also was thinking about 1 more Amp, but that won’t be happening either. Sonos really needs to come up with a solid solution to this, but they don’t have much time. I don’t see how this won’t significantly impact their business. Wondering how much time my 4 Play 1s and my Sub have left.

R

Ralpfocus

Prodigy III

Over on the rant thread I have found the following recent comments from Ryan

“If you bring modern devices along with legacy devices into a legacy build you’ll it will still be possible to add all Sonos products currently available for sale to a legacy system. They’ll all update to the correct legacy build.”

“Generally speaking, it’s best to leave updates on, but with a legacy system I wouldn’t expect much in the way of updates. They’ll come only when absolutely needed, and only when possible. “

“To be very clear, it will still be possible to add all Sonos products currently available for sale right now to a legacy system. “

“In May, when the legacy change comes, you’ll be able to set your whole Sonos system on the legacy build (both modern and legacy devices). Any existing modern speakers that come along with your legacy devices onto that build will work exactly as the have been, however the whole system (including the modern devices that move to legacy) won’t regularly update. Any new features that come to Sonos won’t be added to any of those speakers while they’re on legacy software. Over time, some services may require updates to keep going and we’ll do what we can to provide them, but we will be limited to do so by the hardware of those legacy devices.”

“@kassey22000, I know it’s buried several times in the pages of this thread and others, but we’ve committed to supporting our products with updates for at least five years after they’re no longer sold by us, after they’ve been discontinued. And as you all know, we have a track record of doing so for much longer than that. The 2015 Connect and Connect:Amps are only recently no longer sold, or in some cases still available at very limited stock levels. So you’re looking at at least five years worth of updates from when they were discontinued.”

Some of this was also covered in the initial post. However It is possible that I (and others) have misunderstood (or possibly disbelieved) the initial communication and it is possible that the quotes above have been taken out of context so for clarity here is a scenario with questions to help decide the route forward. Ideally @Ryan to provide the answers

The scenario - As I have legacy products that I wish to retain in May and some modern products that I want to continue to work with the legacy products I put my system into legacy mode.

The questions are

Can I expect to be able to add any of the existing product set to a legacy environment. Irrespective of the release of software/firmware that the product is manufactured with or for that matter the date it is manufactured?

Since Sonos are committed to supporting a product for at least 5 years after end of manufacture is the legacy environment effectively good for at least 5 years after the demise of the last of the current product set? (Subject to changes in streaming services APIs)

Even if Sonos bring out a new product for which they they cannot or will not create a legacy date software/firmware version will all other current (April 2020) products still be able to join a Legacy environment?

If in another n (lets be optimistic 10) years I find that my legacy components (which will probably have increased by then) have all reached the end of their useful life will it be simple to come out of legacy mode?

Is it realistic to have the expectation that Sonos will attempt to make changes to the legacy streaming APIs if required?

The understanding is that any new features made available over the next few years may not be available in a legacy environment.

exdirtfarmer