Avid Contributor I

Apple Music lossless via S2?

Forum|Forum|4 years ago
November 8, 2021
66 replies
17996 views

I know this question has been asked (but apparently not answered) previously, but I thought I’d try again.

When listening to music directly through Apple Music on my Sonos speakers (via Airplay), I definitely notice improved quality with the new “lossless” quality offered by Apple. My ears, however, seem to think that the quality isn’t as high-fidelity when I listen to the same music via the S2 app (which, of course, is pulling the same music from my Apple Music subscription). However, I’m willing to admit that this perceived difference in quality may be psycho-somatic (since I’m still confused as to whether the S2 app is capable of accessing lossless files when it queries the Apple Music database).

Any chance either Apple or Sonos have provided an authoritative answer to this question? I.e. when S2 streams a file from Apple Music, is Apple giving them access to the lossless files? Or is Apple reserving those files for customers who are using the Apple Music interface? (For what it’s worth, I’ve noticed that music that I’ve listened to recently via the S2 app is showing-up on my Apple Music widget as “recently played”; so there’s definitely some background dialogue happening between the two apps).

Ps: the reason this matters— I would much rather use the S2 app to control music, as Airplay has unfortunately proven very unstable on my Sonos system (especially across multiple speakers) since moving to a new apartment—whereas S2 (for the most part) has been stable/reliable.

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K

Kumar

The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

ratty

I wish someone would simply measure the bandwidth of the Airplay stream sent by Apple Music when playing lossless (as I did with Deezer). That would confirm it one way or the other.

K

Kumar

@Gert_4 More on the louder lossless thing - while the link claims this to be the case, it is after all just one data point on the net, and may not be valid. However it does point out to the need to not automatically assume that sound levels from Apple lossless and lossy are the same to the extent needed for a valid comparison test.

G

Gert_4

Prominent Collaborator I

The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

K

Kumar

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

But if the reason for getting a better sound is because the lossless files are playing just a little louder, then why not achieve the same sound quality via a slightly higher setting on the volume control when using lossy files - then, even if there is power consumption/heating problem of the kind you refer to, it becomes a non issue!

For comparative testing, the point I am making is that even if you are just switching lossless to lossy within the Apple app, sound levels still need to independently matched before coming to a conclusion on sound quality, with other blind testing disciplines also followed.

The question then is that when the seller of the service himself says that there is really no difference in heard sound quality between lossy/lossless, is this effort of testing worth the time and energy and deployment of sound level testing equipment?

Note that Apple Music Atmos is a different animal altogether. There the difference in how the sound comes across is night and day and needs no blind testing to be sure of the validity. Which of the two sounds better, still remains a matter of personal preference.

S

Sonorous

Trending Lyricist I

The music from the Appel Music App plays via Port.

In the iPad's Music quality setting, you simply switch Lossless on or off.

The music plays all the time with the same volume.

You just turn the Lossless stream on or off.

When you do this, the Music continues to play, except that it is very briefly muted when you switch from the standard sound to Lossless or the other way around.

Hope this makes sense.

Yes, understood. So what you should get is the same volume level - but I have seen reports that Apple Music has its lossless streams play a little louder than lossy streams. Perhaps it is to get to sound better, perhaps it is some other reason. But if that were the case, that may well be the reason you are getting the effect of better sound via lossless.

See one link on this:

https://markellisreviews.com/apple-music-lossless-sounds-better-because-its-louder-a-follow-up/

I do not know if this is the case, what has made me suspicious was that my iPad gets hotter when playing with Lossless on.

It seems like the iPad is working with larger files and this is also what I think I could hear, a better sound with Lossless on.

If this is not the case then Appel has a problem with the power consumption.

Just to be devil’s advocate, the iPad could be working harder because it’s converting lossless to AAC on the fly. That would require more computing power than just passing a lossless signal.

G

Gert_4

Prominent Collaborator I

Just to be devil’s advocate, the iPad could be working harder because it’s converting lossless to AAC on the fly. That would require more computing power than just passing a lossless signal.

Correct we do not know for sure.

Therefore, it would be interesting if there was someone, as Ratty has previously suggested in this thread, who could measure the bandwith on the AirPlay2 stream.

Ps. It is possible to try Appel Music 3 months for free.

J

jrguk

Lyricist III

In a not completely scientific test (other data could have been downloading at the same time), I played a 3’12” long track, indicated as lossless, 24-bit/48kHz ALAC, in the Music app (iOS 15.1), and used Airplay 2 to send that to a Beam (running S2 13.4).

I skipped ahead in a playlist so that the phone wouldn’t have already downloaded and cached what I was playing.

The phone was logged by my WiFi AP as having downloaded approx 55MB, and the Beam received 6.2MB in the same time.

The order of magnitude difference strongly suggests to me that the Music stream was received by the phone, and re-encoded on the fly for Airplay to the Beam. But 6.2MB for 3 minutes also indicates a lossy codec.

D

Decibell

Lyricist II

Greetings folks. This has been confirmed through tests and confirmed by Apple this is how it works

Apple Music app cannot stream lossless to Airplay 2, it converts to 256AAC
Apple Music app can stream lossless to Airplay 1
Apple Music app can send lossless to Airplay 2 if ALAC is saved on hard drive (self ripped DRM-free CDs)
Apple Music also cannot send lossless to chromecast (for android users)

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/apple-music-lossless-mess-part-2-airplay-r1026/

Airgetlam

What that article is missing is a non-Apple device. In the past, Apple has streamed different streams between their own devices than they have with devices not made by Apple. That article does not address that, one way or the other.

Bruce

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