Take Heed Sonos Devs | Sonos Community

Show me a valid DBT then. Plenty of them over on Hydrogen Audio proving no one can hear a difference. Can you find one proving you can? Good luck...

If you really believe your own argument why would you even invest in ESL speakers? Especially when,as posted elsewhere , you write that two Play:1’s sound just as good as them? That is so off the mark I don’t know where to even start, but if you seriously can’t hear the difference you need your hearing checked out.

The tone of your arguments are always to tell others how it is. You can’t hear the difference, so that is how it is. You think that the v8 app is better, so that is how it is. Well, no — these are your opinions. I’m not here to convince you. So don’t insult me by saying you find it ‘laughable’ when I state my opinion as different to yours.

Andrew

Your opinion isn't based in fact. Big difference. Mp3 and AAC are well documented to become transparent at certain bitrates, above which no further improvement is noticeable. Fact. Your belief that you can "hear" differences is simply your opinion. It has no factual basis. It is the basis of all audiophilia; religion, not science.

Here are the facts, including the bitrates at which transparency is achieved for various codecs. The major services all stream at much higher bitrates than required for transparency .

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Transparency

but by no stretch of the imagination is highly compressed lossy audio ‘hifi’ It’s you that cannot hear the difference, not me.

Generalisations are said to be odious and the quoted one is as well - for instance ECM produced albums that are mastered for iTunes are delivered in 256kbps lossy formats. Do these also qualify for the "highly" classification in the quote above?

If they do, add me to those that cannot hear the difference between these and CDs/lossless rips of the same album, so I have no trouble in accepting the lossy versions as HiFi. I doubt anyone has heard differences in a DBT involving kit that is ten times or more as expensive either with these files, and I would love to read the evidence of that as opposed to speculation. On the other hand, I can easily pick these being played on my play 1, compared to, say, my JBL Flip 3, with my eyes closed. Which just says that the former speaker is more HiFi than the latter.

As someone said about the economy once - it is the speakers,...I will leave the last part unsaid.

And it is down to mastering quality; a poorly mastered CD/lossless file will not sound as good a 256kbps or even more compressed file from a well mastered version of the same performance.

The problem is of people doing comparisons with too many variables in the mix and jumping to wrong conclusions.

If you really believe your own argument why would you even invest in ESL speakers? Especially when,as posted elsewhere , you write that two Play:1’s sound just as good as them? That is so off the mark I don’t know where to even start, but if you seriously can’t hear the difference you need your hearing checked out.

And I don't know why this "get your ears checked" is such a common response, but it is. Exactly what I was told when I said something similar about a 1 pair compared to a pair of Harbeth C7s some years ago. Even after I had made a qualified conclusion.

As to the specific comparison it was made in a context of use/application. I have a play 1 pair on my desk, flanking my computer and playing music when I am at the desk. I challenge anyone to have any Quad ESL pair, even the latest one that sells for USD 10K or such, sound just as good for that use. After they have shoe horned it into the space.

Apologies for continuing the digression, but the thread subject is a beaten to death horse. Come to think of it, so is this one.

...

Thanks, it is here that I bow out of the conversation and this forum. As it with my postings about the v8 app I repeatedly said that one’s own viewpoint is just that. What *I* hear is what I hear, what *I* see is what I see, what *I* feel is what I feel.

If my personal opinion is odious, so be it. However I don’t need to be told by others what I should think, feel, see or hear. I have only been around these forums a few weeks to realise there are 3 individuals who feel the need to chime in on almost every thread; they effectively act as bullys who put down any dissent in the ranks. Either way this is not a chilled or friendly place to hang out. You guys are welcome to it. cheerio

Your call. On the other hand, if everyone dissenting was in agreement with everyone else, why is more than one dissenter needed?:-). And what's left to discuss?

At even the largest companies, it is pretty common for an extremely small group of people (or even a single individual) to make major decisions on UI design that devs are required to follow. Ideally that group or person is listening closely to user-feedback, observing users actually interacting with the software, and is "dogfooding" it. (Internal usage of the product first, within the company.) Easy for that not to happen though, for a variety of reasons.

Indeed. I'd be very surprised if any user testing has taken place for version 8. And if it did, some pointy haired higher-up must have decided to ignore the feedback.

Looks like Sonos is trying to move the app to try to adhere to Apple's "Human Interface Guidelines". See https://developer.apple.com/ios/human-interface-guidelines/overview/themes/ I'd be curious to hear what someone experienced in developing using these guidelines thinks of the new app.

While that's clearly what they are trying to do - and in doing so happily ignore android users - whoever is doing so has very little practical experience with usability.

If you look at the navigation guidelines for example it clearly states users should have a clear path and that it should be fast and easy to get where you want.

https://developer.apple.com/ios/human-interface-guidelines/app-architecture/navigation/

There's a clear consensus however that this has not been achieved, and that the navigation is cumbersome and inefficient (needless extra clicks, not sure where to go next, people being confused between the room selection and configuration, etc).

The reason for this is fairly obvious. Sonos decided to use a standard control (the tabbar) without properly questioning if it was fit for purpose (as quite some issues are a direct result of that choice). The guidelines clearly state though that you should only do so when possible, meaning it allows you to achieve a clear path, that's fast and easy to use, etc.

So if you can not achieve a user friendly app design with the standard controls you should look for something else (e.g almost every audio app uses a playbar although that isn't standard either). The previous navigation - warts and all - clearly struck a better balance in this regard (by using a standard android control).

...

Thanks, it is here that I bow out of the conversation and this forum. As it with my postings about the v8 app I repeatedly said that one’s own viewpoint is just that. What *I* hear is what I hear, what *I* see is what I see, what *I* feel is what I feel.

If my personal opinion is odious, so be it. However I don’t need to be told by others what I should think, feel, see or hear. I have only been around these forums a few weeks to realise there are 3 individuals who feel the need to chime in on almost every thread; they effectively act as bullys who put down any dissent in the ranks. Either way this is not a chilled or friendly place to hang out. You guys are welcome to it. cheerio

Your personal opinion is fine, and acceptable, but when you try to push your personal opinion as the end all/be all, that's where it becomes odious. Why is your opinion any better than anyone else's? That's the problem with your statements, as evidenced by you hiding your iPad from your guests because YOU don't like something they've never even seen before, effectively preventing THEM from even forming an opinion. That, sir, is the definition of odious.

As for hearing, I personally can't hear the difference between FLAC and a 320 MP3 on ANY equipment. Does that mean I need to get my hearing checked? No. And I'm fine with saving the disk space by storing my CDs as 320 MP3s. That's MY choice. Not yours.

...

Thanks, it is here that I bow out of the conversation and this forum. As it with my postings about the v8 app I repeatedly said that one’s own viewpoint is just that. What *I* hear is what I hear, what *I* see is what I see, what *I* feel is what I feel.

If my personal opinion is odious, so be it. However I don’t need to be told by others what I should think, feel, see or hear. I have only been around these forums a few weeks to realise there are 3 individuals who feel the need to chime in on almost every thread; they effectively act as bullys who put down any dissent in the ranks. Either way this is not a chilled or friendly place to hang out. You guys are welcome to it. cheerio

Your personal opinion is fine, and acceptable, but when you try to push your personal opinion as the end all/be all, that's where it becomes odious. Why is your opinion any better than anyone else's? That's the problem with your statements, as evidenced by you hiding your iPad from your guests because YOU don't like something they've never even seen before, effectively preventing THEM from even forming an opinion. That, sir, is the definition of odious.

As for hearing, I personally can't hear the difference between FLAC and a 320 MP3 on ANY equipment. Does that mean I need to get my hearing checked? No. And I'm fine with saving the disk space by storing my CDs as 320 MP3s. That's MY choice. Not yours.

Just passing through to say you got part of your posting of me mixed up with someone else. And I agree with you — it is your choice to listen to what you want. I said that right from the off. I keep saying it. Everyone’s opinion is their own — on anything and everything. Search my few postings and most are defending those who have dared raise their voice and been put down by the sanctimonious few. I see a handful on here who see theirs as the One True Way and make sure it’s heard on every thread. It was Chicks who said my opinion was laughable and Kumar who said my opinion was odious. Not because I told them what they should be listening to, but because I said I personally prefer lossless formats. Hence my comment about bullying. And that really Really is my last posting on any subject — this really is not a nice place to hang out. Just wanted to clear my name.

Yeah, because telling people to get their ears checked and their hearing is "seriously screwed" if they can't tell the difference isn't telling people what they should think, feel, or hear, it's really the epitome of welcome and inviting . . . :8

Per usual, a person experiencing pushback on their bullying ways projects it onto others. Diversity of opinion goes both ways, sir. Only one person is lobbying for the shutdown of opinions here, and it isn't your so called "sanctimonious few".

Kumar who said my opinion was odious. .

Also for the record, I said that generalisations are odious and explained why what you said was a generalisation. I have not seen any rebuttal of that explanation yet. That could lead to some progress, with a change of views possible on either side.

And asking others to get their hearing checked is obnoxious - no two ways about that.

Also for the record, there are many free services that stream music at ridiculously low bitrates, like 48kbps. That's fine for sportscasts, but for music, the artifacts are glaringly noticeable, including to these ears. Once transparency is reached, though, by definition the artifacts are no longer apparent. Streams at 320kbps mp3, and 256kbps AAC, are transparent. They meet every definition of High Fidelity. No one can hear the difference between them and uncompressed in controlled, double-blind tests, with a few well known exceptions.

Per usual, a person experiencing pushback on their bullying ways projects it onto others. Diversity of opinion goes both ways, sir. Only one person is lobbying for the shutdown of opinions here, and it isn't your so called "sanctimonious few".

Wow, that is rich coming from you.

While you sit in your conference rooms and debate the 8.x app with corporate speak sentences like "They will get used to it" and "This happens every major upgrade" and "Scale-able, cross-platform modern blah blah blah.....".

One thing that has never happened before with my Sonos house happened last night. And it is important you realize the significance.

I had three couples over for drinks and I put on one of my playlists and then I turned the ipad over and placed it under my bar. I did it without thinking - it just seemed less distracting that way.

How does one really respond to the author of this post.

Let me understand this......Sonos' developers should take note of a dire situation because of your decision to shield 6 friends from the controller update????? Seriously.

Look I hear some of the concerns about the update. I also cannot say that I truly prefer the current update. What I do know is that I find no great difficulty using it.

But these posts!!!!!!

Wow, that is rich coming from you.

Could you show me the place where I've lobbied for the shutdown of opinions? Where I've claimed the victim? Where I call others names and hurl insults and then don't accept the same in kind? Where I've attacked the poster and not what they post?

Good luck finding them.

Wow, that is rich coming from you.

Could you show me the place where I've lobbied for the shutdown of opinions? Where I've claimed the victim? Where I call others names and hurl insults and then don't accept the same in kind? Where I've attacked the poster and not what they post?

Good luck finding them.

So, have you deleted nearly every post you have made?

So that would be a no on actually pointing out those posts? Thought so. Any other problem with my posts, I suggest you take up with the mods. They will decide if I am in violation of the TOS, not you. Now if you have something to add to the conversation besides personal attacks on me, then I will be happy to engage. Sorry but I'm finding your obsession with me a little creepy, and as such, I would rather keep the thread on topic.

The people sledging the OP have missed the point, in their rush to be holier-than-thou about it.

The point was that Sonos lost a net promoter, and here's why: dislike of new UX. And even better, it's attached to a pithy user story and specific use case. That is feedback that Sonos's product managers actually could find useful. Being a dick to the OP doesn't change that, but it could suppress it in future. All good PMs know that every piece of unsolicited feedback hints at an iceberg of unrevealed market preferences.

So the rest of you - the people telling the OP how or why they "did the wrong thing"; to Sonos's product managers, you are being suppressive noise, not helpful signal. Did you stop to think for a moment, "who does my opinion assist?" Hint: it certainly isn't the OP, who will just be thinking "f*** you". And it isn't Sonos, either.

Source: I am a product manager (not for Sonos).

So that would be a no on actually pointing out those posts? Thought so. Any other problem with my posts, I suggest you take up with the mods. They will decide if I am in violation of the TOS, not you. Now if you have something to add to the conversation besides personal attacks on me, then I will be happy to engage. Sorry but I'm finding your obsession with me a little creepy, and as such, I would rather keep the thread on topic.

Imo the one with a creepy obsession is jgatie, I've only been here a few hours and he's in like every thread I've read dealing with Alexa, the one or 8.1 feedback totally derailing the discussion.

Is he trolling or what?

I also cannot say that I truly prefer the current update. What I do know is that I find no great difficulty using it.

But these posts!!!!!!

I am in the same boat, down to the last bit. I truly don't see the big deal and maybe it is an age thing. Saying that it broke a USD 2000 system seems over the top for sure. In my opinion it adds as much as it takes away; and I don't like the annual relearning for every cosmetic change.

And if memory serves, every refresh has a similar litany of complaints; including the last one, that posters that don't like this one, are pining for. Maybe Sonos should just save money and freeze the app to what it is for the next 5 years or more. But they know their market's tastes and their business a lot better than I do, so I will put up with the annual relearning for all the other desired benefits. Fortunately, this takes less than a couple of hours even for someone that is age disadvantaged. Life has more interesting challenges.

And I don't know why this "get your ears checked" is such a common response, but it is.

Presumably, because the OP doesn't believe a word of it, as they can't believe that anyone could seriously not hear the difference between a pair of Sonos Play 1s and a pair of Quad Electrostatics.

As to the specific comparison it was made in a context of use/application. I have a play 1 pair on my desk, flanking my computer and playing music when I am at the desk. I challenge anyone to have any Quad ESL pair, even the latest one that sells for USD 10K or such, sound just as good for that use. After they have shoe horned it into the space

So now you're saying that the Play 1s can equal any audiophile kit, as long as the kit is no bigger than a Play 1? So we're not really talking about sound quality at all, simply convenience.

No, my friend, we are not talking just convenience, we are talking application specific choice of kit. In a very large room, for example, a play 1 + Sub will not be as capable of delivering the required sound quality as more suitable kit; it may need a 5 pair + Sub, it may need something even more capable for the space. Usually, but not always that means larger speaker enclosures; and ditto for price point shifts to the right. For my desktop, placed where it is, the Sub will detract from the sound quality from a 1 pair placed flanking the speakers for near field listening even if place can be found for it under the desk quite conveniently; I have tried this and I know from actual tests. While the Quad ESLs, even if place can be found for them flanking the speakers, will not sound as good as the 1 pair while working at the desk, where near field listening is involved.

We are still talking sound quality, by the way not "simply convenience".

And regardless of what the OP believes, there are many ways of conveying it. To a person that has a 1 pair AND Quad Electrostatics, who can be assumed with reasonable certainty to know what he is talking about. Once you know a little more about him from earlier conversations here.

Could you show me the place where I've lobbied for the shutdown of opinions? Where I've claimed the victim? Where I call others names and hurl insults and then don't accept the same in kind? Where I've attacked the poster and not what they post?

I have not been active long on this forum, but in practically every thread in which someone voiced critique on the new design, I have seen you shoot the messenger. Time and time again, you go of on a rant on how this is the same as with 5.0 and that is nothing more than muscle memory, and that people who complain about the new design are just ridiculous. The below is a perfect example in this regard.

"the childish rants over what is essentially an easily relearned interface to an extremely first world luxury music system. Yet it is being talked about like it has the impact of world hunger or climate change."

Instead of engaging with other forum posters on the pro-and cons of the new interface, you almost systematically attack the poster for not going along with the program. And looks like I'm not the only one who noticed that

Imo the one with a creepy obsession is jgatie, I've only been here a few hours and he's in like every thread I've read dealing with Alexa, the one or 8.1 feedback totally derailing the discussion.

Is he trolling or what?

If the message is a childish rant, then I am shooting the message, not the messenger. I offer valid and proven facts that people now love the 5.0 UI which was once slagged 10 times more than the current 8.0 release, and state that because of these facts, most of the complaints can be boiled down to familiarity and muscle memory. The overwhelming response to those facts has been personal attacks and cries for me to shut up, the loudest cry from the very poster I was replying to here.

The very, very few posters who have attempted to discuss the phenomenon I describe I have engaged with politely and respectfully. One poster even asked me for my actual opinion on Sonos' latest releases and I ripped them as bad as anyone here, sans the childish nonsense. But hey, one sees what they want to see.

Oh and by the way, I also can be seen in other threads helping hundreds of users with troubleshooting problems or buying decisions. If one spent any time outside the complaint threads, one would notice that.

.

The very, very few posters who have attempted to discuss the phenomenon I describe I have engaged with politely and respectfully.

Nope you don't have a polite or respectful word in you as far as I can tell. You've invaded and derailed almost every thread I've read on these forums with your muscle memory schtick and/or heaping insults and scorn on anyone with an opposing pov .

These Sonos forum communities are incredibly unfriendly and you are the main troll. The fake offense you take to being called out on it is hilarious. And with that I'm done feeding the troll.

Sign up

Login to the community

Scanning file for viruses.

This file cannot be downloaded