Digressing completely, the American meaning of the word bigot, from the Webster dictionary:

"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

and the English one, from the Oxford English dictionary:

"A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions"



Presumably which side of the Atlantic one is from would decide what meaning gets conveyed by the word.



I would not be comfortable being called either kind of a person, but it seems that the word would sit a little more easily in the UK.



Bit perfect means the same on both sides.;)

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Bigot can mean the same in the UK too, but we are talking about hifi, not races or cultures.

I presumed that people were intelligent enough to understand the context of the discussion we were having.



"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as in those who believe in Hi Res) with hatred and intolerance" 😃



Maybe I should have said 'insular' instead, or 'snob' but then most people don't understand the word 'snob' many think it means stuck up or posh.



I think the problem maybe that Bigot has been used so much in the last few months with what has been happening with Brexit and Trump that many maybe only know it from hearing it in a derogatory way.

It is the same when you call someone ignorant, so many people get all annoyed and say things like "Don't call me stupid!". Which is always kind of ironic.

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There is only one person here showing a degree of intolerance that rises to a level of calling for people to shut up and stop posting their opinion.

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I think the problem maybe that Bigot has been used so much in the last few months with what has been happening with Brexit and Trump that many maybe only know it from hearing it in a derogatory way.



I disagree; accusing someone of bigotry has been a serious thing for a long time now and I am saying this with confidence even as someone whose mother tongue isn't English. A lot more people may be throwing the word around these days, but an undeserved/unproved accusation of bigotry would be derogatory in my book for decades now.

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Do you start to understand now the double standard being applied here?



No, I really don't think that they do....

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There is only one person here showing a degree of intolerance that rises to a level of calling for people to shut up and stop posting their opinion.



Leave Chicks out of this, I think he/she has some issues. 😉









All I was saying, is if you don't see why someone would want a player that offers say Hires or MQA or bit perfect, then why bother entering the thread of those that do want that to tell them they are wrong and it is not needed?

There are so many threads that I don't agree with, but I don't feel the need to go in there and say to those posting "You're wrong!!".



Try and bite your tongue, let those that want these options ask for them?



So yeah, if I am asking Sonos for an audiophile connect, and you jump in to say it is not needed I have the right to say "Shut up, just because you don't want it doesn't none of us can have it.".



Moderation edit: Please watch the language. - Ryan S.

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I think the problem maybe that Bigot has been used so much in the last few months with what has been happening with Brexit and Trump that many maybe only know it from hearing it in a derogatory way.



I disagree; accusing someone of bigotry has been a serious thing for a long time now and I am saying this with confidence even as someone whose mother tongue isn't English. A lot more people may be throwing the word around these days, but an undeserved/unproved accusation of bigotry would be derogatory in my book for decades now.



Really?



I think I am a bigot when it comes to many things.



I can't stand those left wing snowflakes that mouth off so much at the moment, you know, the ones that tend to be offended on behalf of others. I think their views should be ignored completely, that is me being a bigot.

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There is only one person here showing a degree of intolerance that rises to a level of calling for people to shut up and stop posting their opinion.



Leave Chicks out of this, I think he/she has some issues. 😉









All I was saying, is if you don't see why someone would want a player that offers say Hires or MQA or bit perfect, then why bother entering the thread of those that do want that to tell them they are wrong and it is not needed?

There are so many threads that I don't agree with, but I don't feel the need to go in there and say to those posting "You're wrong!!".



Try and bite your tongue, let those that want these options ask for them?



So yeah, if I am asking Sonos for an audiophile connect, and you jump in to say it is not needed I have the right to say "Shut the fuck up, just because you don't want it doesn't none of us can have it.".



I will post what I like when I like. I don't ask you to shut up, you shouldnt be asking me to shut up. Thats the way things work.

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I think that sums up your attitude a treat.



At least we all know where we stand.

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I never called anyone a liar.



Mr. Reiss is lying in his PR statement.



I stand by my accusation. Dr. Reiss is lying in his PR statement.



...in reality a lie, attributed directly to you.



And not once did I say Mr. Reiss is a liar. Only that his statement (if in fact, it was his statement) with regards to the PR release for his study was a lie.



I stand by that assessment.



@jgatie



OK, I've done some more reading and thinking about lying (not really what I expected to get out of this forum, but what the heck, always ready to learn). I had thought that accusing a person of lying must mean you are also accusing them of being a liar. However, it seems common usage of the word liar means someone who habitually and deliberately tells lies. A lie is a deliberate mistruth, told in the knowledge it is false.



The other distinction to be made here is between a deliberate mistruth (a lie) and an error (statement is wrong without deliberate intent). Without solid evidence, I don't think it can be claimed that Dr Reiss is lying. In fact, the evidence from the primary source (his paper) indicates otherwise.



So here is what I propose if you agree with my analysis:

I will agree that you did not call Dr Reiss a liar, but that you accused him of lying; and

You will agree that the statement attributed to Dr Reiss is wrong but not deliberately, so it is not a lie.

If you still believe his statement to be a lie, you will provide evidence of deliberate intent.



Do we agree?



@PeterMc

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Deliberate intent? In my humble opinion, nobody could make such a gross mistatement of the truth accidently, therefore the quote itself is a lie. It is also my opinion that as an expert, even if Mr. Reiss didn't give the quote, allowing it to stand without correction is perpetuation of a lie.



You dont have to like my opinion. That's ok. I, unlike others, won't run you out of the thread or report you to the mods just because you disagree with me.

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you don't see why someone would want a player that offers say Hires or MQA or bit perfect, then why bother entering the thread of those that do want that to tell them they are wrong and it is not needed?



if I am asking Sonos for an audiophile connect, and you jump in to say it is not needed I have the right to say "Shut the $#@#$ up, just because you don't want it doesn't none of us can have it.".

Language, language...but let me see if I understand what you are saying.



On a forum paid for and administered by a manufacturer that does not seem to be looking in your direction, you want a private sand pit to play in only with like minded buddies that will endorse your views, that others that think different should not enter.



Maybe the title of the thread should clearly indicate this preference in that case? I am not saying that doing this will deliver all that you expect, but it is certainly worth an attempt. It should also prevent you from entering threads that do not indicate such a preference.



Perhaps Sonos can earmark a section of the forum for all such threads, titled " Audiophile Corner, for discussion on unverified subjective and possibly biased claims". Will that serve?

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. It is also my opinion that as an expert, even if Mr. Reiss didn't give the quote, allowing it to stand without correction is perpetuation of a lie.



It is pertinent to point out that the elaborate and attributed quote was made by the organisation that employs Mr Reiss, and therefore almost certainly was part of the package that distributed the paper. Don't scientists have a responsibility of knowing the manner in which their work is being distributed to the world?



IMHO - damn, that is so easy - here it is not as if some obscure internet poster has put this spin on the work; ignorance of that is excusable, but this as well?

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you don't see why someone would want a player that offers say Hires or MQA or bit perfect, then why bother entering the thread of those that do want that to tell them they are wrong and it is not needed?



if I am asking Sonos for an audiophile connect, and you jump in to say it is not needed I have the right to say "Shut the fuck up, just because you don't want it doesn't none of us can have it.".



Language, language...but let me see if I understand what you are saying.



On a forum paid for and administered by a manufacturer that does not seem to be looking in your direction, you want a private sand pit to play in only with like minded buddies that will endorse your views, that others that think different should not enter.



Maybe the title of the thread should clearly indicate this preference in that case? I am not saying that doing this will deliver all that you expect, but it is certainly worth an attempt. It should also prevent you from entering threads that do not indicate such a preference.



Perhaps Sonos can earmark a section of the forum for all such threads, titled " Audiophile Corner, for discussion on unverified subjective and possibly biased claims". Will that serve?





A thread discussing the fact the Sonos Connect, which has been bit perfect for years, and no longer is, is a good thread to bring up that maybe it might be a good idea for Sonos to consider a new product that does what a hell of a lot of people are asking for. And there is a hell of a lot of people out there asking for it. Loads of people who are 'into hifi' have Sonos kit and love it, but wish they offered something to put into their main system too.



Now the fact many who use this forum don't think a higher end, bit perfect source would offer benefit is besides the point, if you are a company, it might be nice to hear what products your customers and potential customers are wanting going forward. Shutting down the discussion with fingers in your ears shouting "It's all a nonsense lah, lah, lah..." is not helping matters. Every time a discussion starts on here about it it is shut down with belittling.



Just look at your post above. More sneering.

Sitting there making snide remarks while a few of your mates pat you on the back for your comedic genius.



The fact is simple, some people would like a bit perfect Sonos player, one that can handle MQA moving forward (which is starting to take off) would be nice too, the big streaming services are running with it, and streaming is all I use these days as I am sure it is for many. Customers are out there who want it, whether you guys want it, or think it is any benefit is irrelevant.



Away from this forum people are starting to move away from Sonos, where audiophile quailty is not that important we are seeing users now buy Chromecasts and cheap but good active speakers, and use streaming from people like Yamaha's Musicast, and where quality is important we are seeing loads go to Bluesound, and Roon where you can use some pretty high end end points or even a £30 Raspberry Pi with the add on sound card and get a better user experience than Sonos (as long as it has the services you want of course, which is why so many still want Sonos). Even the guys selling kit are starting to advise other options, the Sonos thread on the car forum I use which has been running for years, the guy who sells it and started the thread is now recommending other products since the price updates last month.



So belittle all you like, but while you shut down discussion you run the risk of stopping Sonos hear from people with.........God forbid, different opinion and different needs to your own.





So no, you once again haven't got what I am saying at all, all you can see is someone wanting something different to you and therefore feel the need to shut them down, tell them they are stupid, tell them they are wrong. Be careful, that's what happened with Brexit, that is what happened with Trump. The world seems full of people who think their way is the only way, but if you don't stop and listen to the concerns of others and tell them they're wrong all the time it often comes back to bite you. The firs time many had a chance to speak without being vilified was in the polling booth, and look what happened!!!



Have you considered Sonos may like to hear how much demand there is for such a product? If you let the threads run they just might get to hear. The way it is at the moment they probably think there is no demand, the problem is many who want those products won't use these forums as the perceived negativity towards them on here stops them posting.

As you say, they pay for this forum, maybe they would like to hear 'everyones' view, not just a handful of posters who live on here??





All the above is just my opinion of course and I am sure you will dissect every word I have just written to try and pull it apart and make me look stupid, and that is fine, I get that is how you feel good about yourself, but I have tried to reply in the most polite way I can and not bite at your condescending remarks above, explaining my thoughts as well as I can, what you do with that info is up to you, but it would be nice if you just stopped and thought "OK, I don't get why you'd want that, but if you do then fair enough."



I live in hope. 😃

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If you let the threads run they just might get to hear. The way it is at the moment they probably think there is no demand, the problem is many who want those products won't use these forums as the perceived negativity towards them on here stops them posting.



I don't for one moment think that this community delivers more than a small fraction of the market information that Sonos obtains to develop its strategies. Based on what Sonos says is the purpose of the community, I also don't think that Sonos expects anything different either.



An excellent case in point - the strategic shift to voice control. Almost no one here saw the need for that one coming to that extent. Or if they did, no one wrote about that here as some have been doing about audiophile Connects and Hi res for over a decade now. Indeed - while other older regulars here will correct me if I am wrong - I don't think that any of the major product moves that Sonos has made in the last ten years saw a significantly expressed clamour here that led to those moves. I refer to things like active speakers, room response DSP and the like.



At one time there was an ideas section in the community that people like you could have used to efficiently convey what you think Sonos needs to know. As far as I know, it has been shut down. But if it is still working, find it and use it to tell Sonos that you want audiophile Connects, Hi Res and MQA. Or whatever else that you want from Sonos.



If Sonos thinks protected sandpits are required for fulfilling any of their business interests, I am sure these will be provided.

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I don't see one person in here "shutting down" your request for an audiophile Connect. In fact, the only thing shutting down your request for an audiophile Connect is the fact you have personally changed the topic of this thread into a plea for safe spaces, instead of a request for an audiophile Connect. Maybe if one could stay on topic, the request could rise above the noise.



To Kumar, a boom box Sonos like the Play:5 was requested. Trueplay may have had a few suggestions, but no full throated cry. There are certainly more hotly* requested items such as audiophile quality versions of Sonos components that have been ignored, or were expressly shot down by Sonos. Number one with a bullet amongst these items is support for hi-resolution audio. It was definitively stated on ask.com that it will not be supported, and verified by Tom Cullen in an article that Sonos does not believe in hi-res, especially higher scan rates. They obviously know the hit (or lack thereof) they are taking from that statement.



*hotly meaning a couple people writing hundreds of posts, not 100 people writing one or two.

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To Kumar, a boom box Sonos like the Play:5 was requested. Trueplay may have had a few suggestions, but no full throated cry. There are certainly more hotly* requested items such as audiophile quality versions of Sonos components that have been ignored



*hotly meaning a couple people writing hundreds of posts, not 100 people writing one or two.

That's about in line with what I thought - that the community or the earlier forum, has had relatively a small influence in the last ten years on the Sonos product portfolio development that has been developed from a much broader based market intelligence and assessment, allied to their sense of what the market needs. They were still caught napping on voice, as they have admitted, but no one here delivered any heads up of that gap to them either.



The only visible thing that I can see has been based on inputs here seem to be the controller/UI changes from time to time. And the 5 unit, as you have pointed out, though there again there has to have been a lot more driving it than community feedback.



As a community member that should bother me if I did not realise that we are just a drop in the ocean of feedback that Sonos obtains from many places to feed its business/product strategy development.

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Well, there were some active threads about Alexa/Echo, nothing like the 100s of volunteers for the private beta though. There were also requests for a Sub and some sort of video capability. So I wouldn't say this forum (or the others) had little to no influence. I'm 100% positive that it isn't the only, nor the most important influence. Marketing studies and plain old individual talent and vision would be #1 and #2 on that list.



One thing is for sure, repeatedly posting a request over and over and over again, while simultaneously drowning out your own request with demands for a safe space to repeatedly make that request, has never been successful. The hue and cry from the tiny vocal minority asking for things like hi-res support, audiophile quality gear, or any of the other wappinghigh like requests has never had any influence. As I said, Sonos knows the difference between hundreds of posts from a couple people and a couple of posts from 100's of people.

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Well, there were some active threads about Alexa/Echo

But was that before Amazon released voice control? That is what I meant - that voice isn't something that was seen as a must have feature by anyone here in a way that prevented Sonos from being blindsided by it.



Neither do I recall seeing any clamour anywhere close to that for hi res/audiophile connects, for something like Trueplay from anyone here that Sonos did do, based on what they thought is a customer requirement. Something that often delivers day v night improvement in sound quality that no one feels the need to challenge via ABX, also because it is easy to toggle it on/off.



Then there was the structured requests/ideas feature on the earlier version of this community - I am guessing that has been discontinued. If so, does that convey anything about the perceived value of the site to Sonos for market feedback purposes?



I guess we now need to turn over the thread back to it's bit perfect Connect subject! The clamour for which does not seem to be getting any response from Sonos either, seeing that it is a 6 month old subject now.

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No, there were never any voice control threads prior to Echo. The requests for hi-res capability or audiophile Connects were always from a very vocal, very adamant, and very argumentative few (sound familiar?). There was even an obviously gamed poll about hi-res support that saw dozens of "one-and-done" hi-res fans sign up just to vote, never posting again. Quite different from the Alexa, Spotify, or Google Play Music threads that saw many posters who interacted with the forum.



Back to the bit-perfect Connect. Sonos screwed up. For whatever reason it was implemented, they should allow the user to toggle bit-perfect on/off.

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For whatever reason it was implemented, they should allow the user to toggle bit-perfect on/off.

Perhaps one day, we will at least see a response, if not a reversal to bit perfect.

On Trueplay, I now recall a faint memory though, that there were a few voices here and there wishing there was a room response DSP on Sonos and I think I remember Chicks as one of those voices.

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This thread got quite out of hand on the personal attacks, and I think everyone knows it. For the sake of the conversation, we haven't deleted the blocks of comments at the moment. Please remember to not attack other users or we will have to remove posts and take further moderation actions as needed. Let's keep it friendly, even if you disagree. We don't need to go slinging insults to get our points across.



Then there was the structured requests/ideas feature on the earlier version of this community - I am guessing that has been discontinued. If so, does that convey anything about the perceived value of the site to Sonos for market feedback purposes?



I guess we now need to turn over the thread back to it's bit perfect Connect subject! The clamour for which does not seem to be getting any response from Sonos either, seeing that it is a 6 month old subject now.



The dedicated Ideas area was removed because we found that a lot of other threads had suggestions in them too and fit in a lot of other places, and often times, one request thread has many requests in it. The Community team here reads every thread anyway, and we make sure to pass on any of the ideas on to other teams as we see them. No need for a dedicated section, we handle the data aggregation on our end.



I've been watching this thread since the creation and have been talking with the player team about this request or question (whichever you'd like to call it). They are looking into the CONNECT output, but I don't have any details on that I can share. I'll let you all know if there's anything to bring up.



Thanks for keeping the conversation on track everyone.

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The dedicated Ideas area was removed because we found that a lot of other threads had suggestions in them too and fit in a lot of other places, and often times, one request thread has many requests in it. The Community team here reads every thread anyway, and we make sure to pass on any of the ideas on to other teams as we see them. No need for a dedicated section, we handle the data aggregation on our end



Just to add to this, the original suggestions forum was pretty much created and maintained by the original User Moderators. At that time, although there were Sonos staff watching the forum, it was a very light touch approach. Often we had to raise issues to Sonos support via back channels. Since the switch to the new forum, Sonos staff are participating much more actively, to the extent that User Moderators aren't needed.



I will point out that maintaining the old format forum was a lot of work and conflict, especially as a large number of users never read, or abided by the rules when posting, even though the rules were there to benefit the community and keep things organised. A handful of people seemed to violently object when their posts were moved or merged as they felt they were more important than the community or that the rules didn't apply to them.



I'll add that, although it started out as an "Ideas" forum, in reality there were very few original ideas, and it was more useful as a way for people to discuss specific feature requests.



Frankly, though it was fun for a while, I'm glad to see the back of it and I can't blame the Sonos folks for not want to continue with it.



Anyway, back to the scheduled programming...



Cheers,



Keith

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Hmmm, I seem to recall a certain member asking for TruePlay well in advance of its rollout, lol. It was met with some intelligent thoughts by the informed posters here, thankfully.



https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/dsp-room-correction-43916

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Hmmm, I seem to recall a certain member asking for TruePlay well in advance of its rollout, lol. It was met with some intelligent thoughts by the informed posters here, thankfully.



https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/dsp-room-correction-43916



That's the thread I remembered when I said "Trueplay may have had a few suggestions, but no full throated cry."

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