Outdoor TV Wiring Setup - Sonos Integration

Thanks, 

I think what I’ll try is something like this:

https://atlona.com/pdf/manuals/AT-HDR-EX-100CEA-KIT_G.pdf
 

This will skip the built in HDBaseT which seems useless on Samsung’s part by not having a transmitter at least recommended.

I believe that the optical port splits out the return ARC sound from Ethernet cable from the TV. Then with the optical to HDMI you mentioned maybe it will work. Hopefully I don’t need to buy a receiver but optical will support that too. 

@jonasmith 

I think a transmitter/receiver pair like that may well work more reliably than trying to match one with Samsung, if they don’t recommend one. There’s a cost difference, of course.

Yes - you’d use the Sonos adaptor to connect a Sonos Amp to the HDBase-T transmitter’s optical port.

In this case (and any other involving Sonos and HDMI), the Sonos Amp is the A/V receiver (well, it doesn’t do video, but you wouldn’t need another device. I think the term “A/V Receiver” predates ARC).

Thank you.  Yeah, I get that Sonos can act as the receiver but unfortunately some of the good things receivers provide (multiple source inputs + ARC) make this kind of setup difficult.  And more expensive than I planned :).

@jonasmith 

Yes - if you need more than one TV input, you’d either need a HDBase-T transmitter with multiple HDMI inputs, or an HDMI switcher (presumably an IR blaster connected to the HDBase-T transmitter would send any IR codes to a HDMI switcher, so you could control the input from outside).

I don’t think a A/V Receiver would work in conjunction with the Sonos Amp over HDMI - they have no reason to provide ARC or optical output. And if you used analogue line-out to line-in on the Amp, you’d incur delays on the audio and lose the option of having surround sound (which would need a second Amp).

Yeah I think with a receiver perhaps it would be more like this:

Video+Audio Source(s) → Receiver HDMI In Ports → Balun → TV → Balun → Receiver (ARC port) → Sonos Connect

Only benefit I see is not needed the optical return path since receiver can do ARC via the HDMI. But that means buying 2 more products (Receiver + Sonos Connect)

The discontinued Sonos Connect is not designed for home cinema use, and neither is it’s replacement, the Sonos Port. The use of either will induce a delay as they digitise the analogue signal and pre-buffer it for sharing on the network. This is why the Amp has an HDMI socket. Seriously, if you’re going to use Sonos devices, forget all about A/V Receivers - they just don’t work in tandem (unless a Port or Connect is providing a music stream to a receiver).

An A/V Receiver won’t use ARC - it get’s the audio before the TV does - but you’re correct in that the return path isn’t needed.

An HDMI switch with optical audio stripping could do the same task for the Amp for much less money - and combine the function of switching inputs. It shouldn’t be needed, however, as the HDBase-T system already provides the audio feed for you. However, the TV will actively convert a non- Dolby Digital stream (like DTS) into one, which I presume no HDMI switch would do. With an A/V Receiver, you’re paying extra for amplifying circuits, audio processors, DACs and codec licenses that you’re just not going to be using, all to get an analogue signal that needs converting back to digital again.

I can’t really comment on Baluns as I had never heard of them until you mentioned them earlier. I assume that if they’re needed, the HDBase-T system would include them internally.

I really think all you’ll need is the HDBase-T system, an optical converter from us, and a good HDMI switcher. And either one or two (for surround) Sonos Amps, if you don’t have one/them already.

Ah yes, I meant Sonos Port.  But the delay would definitely be an issue.  Thanks for the help/clarity.

You are very welcome!

Have you tried the Samsung forums - surely someone there has used the inbuilt HDBase-T link on your TV and can advise? It would surely save you a fair bit of cash.

Not yet, but that is a great idea.

If anyone is like me and prefers a visual. This is more or less what I was describing and I think is my best bet right now. Samsung not responsive on forums at the moment. I may not do soundbar due to potential sound misalignment with sonos but drew it anyway since they have an outdoor one that pairs via bluetooth/wifi.

Not sure about the physical layout of your outdoor setup, but I personally find that it’s less important to have the audio coming from the direction of the TV as you would want it to in a more dedicated TV watching room.  With that in mind, I would not worry about the soundbar.

Also, not sure if wiring HDMI is possible, but I’ve had no issue using 40-50 cables between my  sources TV, and out to the Amp.  I’m not saying that the HD10BaseT won’t work, but I wouldn’t assume HDMI cables won’t work as back up plan if you can do the wiring.

In hindsight I probably could’ve chosen HDMI runs. It was just a tight wall access and HDMI ends are so big for fishing but maybe there is a solution for that too. I’m no professional. I’d have to make new drywall holes (already patched) so it’s a no go though.  

This is a partial truth, based on my experience. If Connect is wired to the core network, and delay is set to minimum, the remaining delay is so small as to not affect lip sync. The problem is that in this mode there is no buffer and wireless play is then unstable. The solution that works then is ethernet wiring.

In my case, I have my patio installed TV’s analog audio out jacks wired to the line in on a Connect that is part of a wired group of Sonos units. The TV sound can then be heard in the patio and piped inside the house as well to this group. Works brilliantly, especially for music videos.

In the OP case, a similar approach would involve wiring the analog audio out jacks on the TV to the line in jacks on Sonos Amp, and set all delays on the line in to a minimum. The only problem might be the absence of the output jacks on the TV.

I have no idea of how HDMI jacks could be substituted for this scheme of connections.

Any speaker wired to the speaker terminals of Sonos Amp would be fine; it is only if other Sonos units are to be in a grouped mode with Sonos Amp that having these ethernet wired to the core network would be needed for stable sound.

I don’t disagree, but I also have to set realistic expectations. Although there any many, like you, who have happily used a Connect for HT audio for years, it won’t work in all cases and certainly not in terms of our major selling point - wireless connectivity, as you pointed out (though we’re not really discussing grouping for TV audio, I guess, which is unsupported but works for some). The surround sound option is thrown out of the window, which would be a major point for some. As the OP has an Amp with HDMI, to use analogue stereo is too big of a step back in time for most these days, especially when they’ve got 4K TV, Apple TV boxes and premium subscriptions to video streaming services.

In addition - and probably more importantly - due to the difference in the speeds of light and sound, we have evolved to cope with sounds from distant objects being out of sync and our brains will typically edit this discrepancy out (up to a point, usually around 100ms) so as to stop our monkey brains from losing the plot. This can vary from person to person, however, and I for one can only happily tolerate about 50ms difference. This also explains why a picture delay is much easier to spot - we don’t have to fight our brain’s editing in order to spot the issue. So while some people wouldn’t even notice the delay, to some (me, at least!) it would be very annoying.

@jonasmith I feel I really should emphasise that although what we have discussed should work, in theory, it is untested by Sonos and we cannot guarantee any satisfactory results. Sonos will play an ARC or Optical feed - it’s just a question of getting it back to the Amp successfully. In regards to the diagram, there won’t be an optical connection from the TV to the HDBase-T receiver - HDMI-ARC will be used.

As @melvimbe mentioned, HDMI cables can be fairly long - maybe long enough - and that would certainly have been a simpler option, but given the cables already laid, I think HDBase-T is the way to go. HDMI cables long enough would be a lot more expensive, I feel (haven’t checked), than CAT6 (though not once you add the cost of HDBase-T).

I took another look at your diagram, and I think perhaps we’re missing a better solution.  While I understand that part of the requirement is to using the TV’s apps as a source, and thus HDMI-ARC is a requirement, if you could opt to use a streaming device instead, you could simplify the setup.

In between the Direct TV and the balun box in the closet, you could place a HDMI switch with HDMI and optical output.  HDMI goes to the balun and optical goes to the Amp.  You can add a streaming box as an input to the switch, and of course, you have room to add more sources as needed.  There wouldn’t be an need to get an audio output from the TV

The downside to this approach is control, since all your sources are not in IR remote range of your outdoor area, but I’m guessing the balun can pass IR signals?  This would be an issue with DirectTV already, unless it has a brand specific solution for that.

And just as a bonus thought, consider getting an HDMI matrix (multiple inputs and outputs) instead of a switch.  Assuming FR is Family Room, you could have your patio and FR TVs be the outputs, with 2 Direct TVs, an a streamer or two as inputs, allowing you to use the same or different sources on either/both TVs.  So if you have game on for a party or something, both TVs would play virtually in sync as guests go move between the two rooms. (Then throw a Sonos One SL or Roam in the bathroom so you don’t miss any action on your bio breaks).  There are some technical details to consider though if the TVs involved don’t have the same video capabilities (4k, 1080p, HDR, dolby vision)

Full disclosure, I am using a matrix and some splitters in my setup, and I do use it occasionally, but the vast majority of time, I am just streaming to one TV at a time.  And for the outdoor TV(s), I tend to just use the TV’s streaming apps.  I have a single story home though, and wiring HDMI cables between sources, TVs, and Amps through the attic was pretty easy.

HDMI cable prices can vary widely, but I found these work just fine for 4k and/or ARC use.

I did not say that Connect will work in HT mode with surround speakers et al; just that it can serve very well to improve the TV sound via two separated front installed speakers IF one wants grouping with other Sonos units in other zones, and one is prepared to ethernet wire all Sonos units in the desired grouping. If such grouping is NOT needed, one may as well wire the TV audio out jacks direct to any stereo amplifier that drives a pair of front speakers, there is no need of a Connect/Sonos.

Why it needs to be said that a Connect used in such a manner is unsupported mystifies me - unless Sonos says this to not let its HT kit sales to be affected. As to wireless connectivity being your major selling point, I remain interested to see how that pans out for you for stable music play when you finally make HD streams available in S2. And by HD, I don’t refer to those of CD density, but the 24/96 ones.

If I gave the impression that Connect can be used for home theatre as understood to include surround speakers etc, that was not my intention.

So here is what I am saying: Where grouping as I have described above is needed, Connect will do the job just fine and this is not an unrealistic expectation IF one is willing to have all the grouped units in ethernet mode. Wirelessly, it almost certainly will NOT work given that it has to be set to close to no buffer mode to not lose lip-sync.

And if none of this is relevant to the OP, I am sorry for posting this here.

Referring to grouping TV audio to other rooms, “unsupported” means that we will not spend a lot of time trying to help you to get it to work, as we’re aware that in many cases - even those with ethernet - will not get this to work satisfactorily, usually if they can hear the source and grouped rooms simultaneously and have a slower router. This is especially true when a product is being used for a purpose for which it is not designed. Aside from grouping, digitising an analogue signal does take time so always induces a delay which is not felt when using a digital stream input, which is why all of our HT products have digital inputs and not analogue ones (with the exception of the Amp’s stereo input, intended for other purposes). 

24bit audio support is one of the reasons newer Sonos products now connect to 5GHz WiFi. 

A digression out of curiosity: what happens if one can hear the source and grouped rooms at the same time? I ask since I do this all the time when I use that set up and I haven’t notice anything. Mine are always in perfect sync.

Un-sync-ness. Desynchronisation. You probably have a decent router and little - or well-controlled - multicasting.

Please bear in mind that if we ask customers to wire one product they often express themselves, unrestrictedly and charmingly unreservedly, about how Sonos is “supposed to be wireless”. We get complaints that our products have power cables. The last thing we would do is suggest that they wire every Sonos product they own. Installers typically do this, but that’s component devices (Port and Amp and their predecessors) and it’s not the customer that has to sort it all out.

Great discussion an ideas!

The good news is that I wired each room with CAT6 homeruns back to the wiring closet and have all Unifi gear (UDM Pro, 24 port Switch) with 1GBe connectivity. I don’t have every Sonos speaker wired via CAT6 but where practical I certainly do.

That said, I do wish I had just forced an HDMI homerun back to the wiring closet or and probably Coax as well (for a wired directv box outside just in case) But, my wife would kill me if I open up another wall (not an easy drop for the exterior wall so had to cut access holes that have been since patched).

I should know in a week or less what works and doesn’t and I may even have an HDMI switcher lying around with optical. With some experimentation I’ll update this thread.

This is a diagram from the Atlona’s site that sounds a bit like what you are suggesting. I will have everything but the AT-JUNO-451 set up soon (except whatever the automation control system does).  If I need to play multiple sources from the wiring closet, I could expand later. 

Quick Update:​​​​​​

I need to do more testing, but playing content from the TV Apps (Netflix, etc.) works great and I am getting sound over the optical out channel from the TV through the Altona balun and into Sonos via the optical to hdmi adapter.  Only thing I noticed was TV audio sync with sonos might need tuning (or really just mute tv speakers).

I still need to test video in over HDBaseT but I ran out of time to get that going.  Will let you know but seems like it should work since I know the return audio channel clearly works.

All systems go. It works like a charm with the setup I described