Trending Lyricist I

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Opinions sought: not a big TV guy, love music everywhere all the time, podcast audiobook addict

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After reading a good bit here it is clear that this forum is NOT a sonos corporate "place" staffed by sonos people but rather a "place" staffed by people who are doing this in their own time for no comp. (I see these comments a good bit.) Therefore I am going to ask a question that I otherwise would not (because it might be unseemly).

I have a BUNCH of sonos stuff already and have for years. Gosh I have loved it. Music (almost) everywhere (not outside (ok... sometimes outside). Sounds great. The app. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world years ago.

Sounds soooooooo good. Glenn Gould playing Bach. Thievery corporation at 4:20. So so nice. And I have a connect so I wired some sorta cheapy outdoor speakers to my garden from a nice conventional 2 channel stereo amp from back in the day (Onkyo or Yamaha or something... you know hat I mean)

But sonos seem to be trying to become more home theater-centric. Play bar, the new base, etc. No doubt it is wonderful and no doubt people love their TVs. The thing is... I really don't really "love" my TV.

Surround sound makes me nervous. And I have a sub from the conventional legacy stuff. I have some TVs around of course and I turn them on. I even have a nice one jacked into a play5 and it is wonderful for baseball games (and it feeds the whole environment if needs be, obviously). But I don't normally sit still that long. I cook and paint and garden and workout and build stuff you know (have a play5 in my garage). Listen to a LOT of podcasts (stitcher and tune in) and a LOT of audiobooks (through audible app on phone + a cable to a sonos). (Trying to get through a 4000+ "page" book now) Hours and hours. (Marcel Proust... still not sure if this novel is about anything.) Sonos doesn't seem to be going in a way aimed at this kind of thing. Audible or audiobooks? Forgetaboutit. It complex. A 4 hour "song" for example requires different ways of controlling it. (That little progress bar... I need to back 30 seconds not 30 minutes... you get the idea.)

All of this is workable. Workaround for this. Workaround for that. Sounds sooooo good. Still love my sonos.

Moreover, support seems to have fallen off. Attention software detail seems to have fallen off (that last "large font setting on phone" screwing with the update "confirmation button" drove me CRAZY. For weeks! Thank goodness someone here mentioned it. And I have trouble with the search function here. And then there is the when the phone rings thing which isn't sonos' fault but I can't tell you how many times I've had to run out into the middle of my front lawn to take a call because I had the music too loud (like the moron I am) and I couldn't turn it down quickly because the sonos app was "behind" the phone app.

But of course I've stopped using my network harddrive because sonos won't index all of it. I think it only indexes 60,000 songs (or something like that back when I stopped.) Why do I need more than 60K songs? I don't. This isn't about need. I get it. But I like classical music and each classical piece is normally several "songs" (the adagio, the rondo, etc.) Sometimes 5 or 6. So my beautiful classical library doesn't take up that much space... but it is A LOT of "songs." Just another little detail.

Sounds SOOOOOOO good.

And I have some amazing lectures. (Not a big TV guy)

And once the index maximum is exceeded there is no telling what is findable. You know you have 60K of 65K songs indexed (or whatever the numbers are) but which 60K? There is no telling which 5K (in this example) it will drop. So now it subfolders aiming sonos at this one not that one and blah blah blah. But isn't this kind thing computers are GREAT at doing cheaply (sorting through very large groups of already organized files). Again, no big deal... but kinda. So I don't use my hardrive anymore because it is useless with the sonos app (still have it) and I'm not an IT guy and I don't know what i need. Meanwhile I don't use a "real" computer anymore... just a bunch of chromebooks and tablets and stuff and I can use spotify (to listen to music i already have) and it is ok. But to use it on sonos I have to go premium. Again.. a detail.

And that's the last point. The stuff is trending upmarket. Understandable. I want to put a new something in a "guest bathroom" (the one I seem to have to use for whatever reason) and I find myself thinking "do I spend another dollar on Sonos which is becoming a TV / Theater company or do I just buy a $99 alexa or whatever and put one everywhere (and carry one all the way out in the gardens) and use the somos stuff I have in one room or give it away or something. But I gotta say... it sounds so good.

Most people aren't like me. Or maybe they are. Any thoughts or recommendations? I am not a technically illiterate but at some point there has to be some kind of maxim: x number of workarounds + y number of NEW dollars on old Solution = start over another way.

Thank you for your time.

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Kumar

But sonos seem to be trying to become more home theater-centric. Play bar, the new base, etc. No doubt it is wonderful and no doubt people love their TVs. The thing is... I really don't really "love" my TV.

Listen to a LOT of podcasts (stitcher and tune in) and a LOT of audiobooks (through audible app on phone + a cable to a sonos). (Trying to get through a 4000+ "page" book now) Hours and hours. (Marcel Proust... still not sure if this novel is about anything.) Sonos doesn't seem to be going in a way aimed at this kind of thing.

I think it only indexes 60,000 songs (or something like that back when I stopped.)
And that's the last point. The stuff is trending upmarket. Understandable.
Most people aren't like me. Or maybe they are. Any thoughts or recommendations? I am not a technically illiterate but at some point there has to be some kind of maxim: x number of workarounds + y number of NEW dollars on old Solution = start over another way.

Thank you for your time.

Don't know if this will help, but to the above edited points:
1. I don't use Sonos for TV either, but I have 4 different music making products from Sonos; there are just two for TV, named by you. I would not say they are becoming home theatre centric. Yes, they are looking to move into more of the home automation space to retain customers, but that is a bigger/different thing than just TV.
2. Sonos does music very well. I read a lot, don't ever plan to read even the first page of Proust for reasons like you state, but I don't need Sonos for that. And I suspect it does not do podcasts etc very well; never has as far as I know.
3. The 65K limit is as it always was. With more of the target market looking to use streaming services, I don't see this being fixed. I believe there are workarounds though.
4. If at all, I'd say with products like play 1, Sonos is trending downwards in price points.

As to your last, I don't know what to suggest. Before someone else does, they may need a more specific question because I don't know exactly what you want to your kit to do, what problem to solve. Or they may not need more clarity, and respond usefully!

Keithmac

Virtuoso

I actually got into Sonos through buying their Playbar, got another pair of Play1's and the sub to go with it and use it more for music than TV now!.

With your big classical albums, is it possible to have them as 1 continuous song rather than 6+ individual tracks?, this would chop your filecount down significantly.

Plenty of people on here can guide you through that process.

Sounds like 60,000 is a limitation of there operating system, I beleive the speaker itself holds the files list but could be wrong?.

DumbazzAuthor

Trending Lyricist I

Thank you Kumar. Good information. Good edit.

Just as FYI, Tune-in and stitcher do most podcasts well and sonos is great with those. Only an issue with longer podcasts.

Agree with and appreciate everything you said

"... have 4 different music making products from Sonos; there are just two for TV, named by you. I would not say they are becoming home theatre centric."

You are correct. My characterization is not accurate. I suppose I discount the subwoofer. Good subwoofers are cheap (they are subwoofers) and I suppose I viewed the $699 SONOS SUB as a TV /home theater product. My bad.

In the 2 hours since I posted the original I'm coming to think I may just fill my house with Amazon echo type stuff. (Looks like amazon is selling echos in group-able 3 packs aiming at this market.) Each echo is half of what a play1 costs (or less with 3 pack price). Don't know the product at all (and know this isn't an amazon forum). I just ordered a single $99 unit to see what they sound like. A test. (Gosh the sonos sound good.). (I don't really care about the voice thing or home automation stuff but amazon owns audible and that might be a thing that matters.) None of this solves the network harddrive (indexing) thing though. I can upload all of my stuff to someplace (Google, Amazon, others) and pay them to stream it to me. I've found some places that can handle large numbers. And sonos even has a post about it. But that just seems cumbersome and wrong. I mean, the data is ALREADY HERE hardwired into the router.

Are there other aps other than the sonos app that can drive these sonos speakers? Can these speakers and the "network they create" (don't know if that is technically accurate, but you take my meaning I hope -- Bridges and Boosts etc) be "jail broken" (no idea what that actually means) and controlled by something else that will index a larger number?

What would one call an app that indexes YOUR music on YOUR network and lets you blast it somewhere? Is that what a media server is? Do I need a media server app and some kind of way to input to the sonos "net"? I don't even know the words to use to search. NAS indexer?

There has to be a way to get around that 65K limit without having to send everything out, store it and then beam it back. Do you think that 65K limit is tied to some kind of hardware (the bridge, the boost, etc) or do you think it is a function of coding in the sonos app? Thank you again.

Lucid AV

Prodigy I

I can empathise with what you're saying Dumbazz.

In a sort of general response way I'd say that Sonos has always been considered 'up market' by the general public, but from my perspective as an audio visual dealer and installer it has always been the cheap option compared to stuff that was around when Sonos launched. Being able to tell a client that instead of ripping their house to pieces to install a whole bunch of wires and key pads at £1000 per room they could have a ZP100 + speakers for £500 and no install mess..... you get the picture.

Sonos has paved the way for wireless multiroom when everyone else was wired. A few companies have tried to emulate what Sonos does, but with limited success. Either they matched the price but didn't perform as well, or ticked the performance and usability boxes but at a much higher price.

It's only this last couple of years that the little voice controlled Amazon speakers have really offered anything new in to homes.

The move by Sonos in to TV sound is, I think, simply a response to market forces. The sound bar market is HUGE business. TVs are thin and have terrible audio. Sound bars are the solution. I see way more sound bars sold than AV surround systems and music systems combined ever have.

As a sound guy I lament the Sonos Playbar and sub. It breaks my heart that folk will spend £1600 on something that does just Dolby Digital with a stereo speaker, two wireless-but-not-really rears and sub when for the same amount I could supply a kick-ass AV receiver, speakers and a Connect so they could have astonishing surround plus full 4K UHD compatibility and HD audio decoding, Sonos functionality plus lots more. However, time and time again it comes down to convenience and no wires. Arrgghhh!!!

How the guys at Yamaha must feel I have no idea? I have been doing Yamaha sound projectors (their name for a sound bar, but sooo much more) since the early 2000's when TVs really didn't need auxiliary sound. Their products are amazing. For sound quality and features they kick the Sonos to the kerb. But like zombies, the general public sees the Sonos name everywhere and that's what they buy; a lesser product costing way more.

You're right about the app and Spotify premium. I guess that's the price of having two-way integration. Someone has to pay for the coding. Also the mute-during-phone-call thing should have been cracked by now. B&O managed it almost two decades ago. Mind you, customers were spending the price of a small family saloon car on audio and telephones, so perhaps that sort of attention to detail should have been expected?

Likewise there isn't a good answer why 60,000 songs is the indexing limit off a single drive give the tech and power in people's hands today. I can only surmise that the number of users who approach that kind of limit are very few and far between. In the 10 years I have been selling and installing Sonos none of my customers has ever raised it as an issue.

All of your points are valid. My guess is that some haven't been addressed for commercial reasons (bigger fish to fry) and others are a limit of the legacy of a system that is getting on for two decades old. Still, it would be nice if Sonos did pay attention. Oh, and an outdoor speaker PLEASE!!! 😃

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Kumar

You are correct. My characterization is not accurate. I suppose I discount the subwoofer. Good subwoofers are cheap (they are subwoofers) and I suppose I viewed the $699 SONOS SUB as a TV /home theater product. My bad.

There has to be a way to get around that 65K limit without having to send everything out, store it and then beam it back. Do you think that 65K limit is tied to some kind of hardware (the bridge, the boost, etc) or do you think it is a function of coding in the sonos app? Thank you again.

With the anchoring Sub bonded to a play 1 pair, I get sound comparable to my now sold brand name HiFi separates, so the Sub definitely isn't just a TV thing; on the contrary I think that music is more demanding of Sub quality that TV/movies where it is mainly used for effects. The Sonos sub is the first one in my experience where music integration with the stereo pair is achieved in a satisfactory manner. I am sure there are others, but I did not find any as good as the Sonos sub.

The 65k limit is a hardware constraint dating back to the still compatible zp80/100 units since the indexed playlists are held in every player in the system.

D33p5t3r

Collaborator II

The move by Sonos in to TV sound is, I think, simply a response to market forces. The sound bar market is HUGE business. TVs are thin and have terrible audio. Sound bars are the solution. I see way more sound bars sold than AV surround systems and music systems combined ever have.

As a sound guy I lament the Sonos Playbar and sub. It breaks my heart that folk will spend £1600 on something that does just Dolby Digital with a stereo speaker, two wireless-but-not-really rears and sub when for the same amount I could supply a kick-ass AV receiver, speakers and a Connect so they could have astonishing surround plus full 4K UHD compatibility and HD audio decoding, Sonos functionality plus lots more. However, time and time again it comes down to convenience and no wires. Arrgghhh!!!

How the guys at Yamaha must feel I have no idea? I have been doing Yamaha sound projectors (their name for a sound bar, but sooo much more) since the early 2000's when TVs really didn't need auxiliary sound. Their products are amazing. For sound quality and features they kick the Sonos to the kerb. But like zombies, the general public sees the Sonos name everywhere and that's what they buy; a lesser product costing way more.

Heh, this is something we tend to argue about ad nauseum on the Home Theatre sub forum, and I agree with everything you say. The cost of a "full" Sonos AV setup is much discussed. The only point I'll repeat is that if you're into your HD codecs you probably wouldn't consider Sonos in the first place. For me, my 2x Sonos 5.0 setups are used in places where I don't care about having Sony TrueHD Ultra Max Atmospheric decoding (regular DD is fine!). It is, like you say all about convenience. I've seen countless threads where people have a Playbar + 2xPlay 1s and are complaining that they don't hear the same thing being pumped out by all speakers.

I have family re-doing their house and I demo them my "proper" wired AV setup and my Sonos. They want the Sonos, they want the sleekness of the Connect:Amp with the ceiling speakers and they loved the look of the Playbar under their TV. No amount of convincing them Dolby Atmos is the next big thing will change their minds!

Also, the alternatives to Sonos aren't around at the moment. Yamaha has MusicCast (interesting you speak so highly of them, I demo'd a few of their units and felt it to be lacking in bottom end), but it can't do basic 5.1 and honestly the MusicCast speakers look just plain odd to me. Denon have a good range and it seems to tick most boxes, except they can't do Atmos. And all of their stuff is just as expensive as Sonos (if not dearer). The NAD/Bluesound range is just...expensive and odd.

I find it very peculiar we seem to have jumped straight from 5.1, somewhat dabbling in DD+, straight to Atmos as the "accepted" format for broadcast and streaming services. I'm very curious to hear what the very expensive Atmos soundbars are like. Can they really bounce the sound around the room in a convincing way? Sky have a new soundbar/box coming out for their subscribers which they are convinced can simulate surround sound without ripping up half of the house, but even that won't decode Atmos.

Sonos totally nailed the software, the grouping, etc in a manner most others haven't been able to do. I guess we'll see how the next ranges of smart home speakers fare (Homepod, Echo, Google Home) in terms of sound. IMO the smartest thing Sonos ever did was ensure the performance of the Play 1 is/was absolutely phenomenal. The clarity and bass performance from such a small unit is superb. But then again, how many of the general public care about sound quality to this degree...?

(P.S. Love threads like this, really informative)

Sony 55XE9305 4K TV | Sonos Beam | Sonos Amp | Apple TV (2nd Gen) | Monitor Audio CT-165 Ceiling Speakers

jgatie

I
Likewise there isn't a good answer why 60,000 songs is the indexing limit off a single drive give the tech and power in people's hands today. I can only surmise that the number of users who approach that kind of limit are very few and far between. In the 10 years I have been selling and installing Sonos none of my customers has ever raised it as an issue.

There is absolutely a good answer, Sonos doesn't index "off a single drive". The index is stored in each Sonos unit, not on any external drive. As such, it has to fit in a limited amount of storage/memory. Sonos is reluctant to abandon old equipment, so a decision was made to use the memory capacity of the older units as the limit on the amount used to index .

Now you can disagree with this decision, but it most certainly was made for a valid reason. And it is true the amount of users who approach the limit is quite small, along with the fact that when Sonos last published the numbers, only 8% of the streaming on Sonos was local music files, the rest was via streaming services. Also, Sonos offers cloud services (Amazon/Google Play Music) and Plex (as limited as Plex's support seems to be, that is) for those who are over the limit.

DumbazzAuthor

Trending Lyricist I

With your big classical albums, is it possible to have them as 1 continuous song rather than 6+ individual tracks?, this would chop your filecount down significantly. Plenty of people on here can guide you through that process.

Thank you for the response Keithmac. I just turned 50. I'm too old to do that I just couldn't do it to that beautiful library. It sits unused instead. I'm just too old I guess. There are particular adagios and a particular Beethoven Rondo to which my late father introduced me. An ASTONISHING 3 little minutes. I just couldn't smear them into the whole piece (and lose them then). There are pieces of Paganini... just little bits... that are how I drink coffee between wives and dogs and when the boys are gone. My grown sons email me even today sometimes "have you heard this little bit of vivaldi? You GOTTA hear it." Not the whole thing, just the bees and bugs... Ha! Yes, Your solution would solve the technical problem and for that, I thank you. It just wouldn't solve the musical problem. And there are particular bits of music that are my life and have endured with me longer than marriages and dogs. I'm just too old. That library took DECADES to get formatted "correctly" ha! I suppose I need to let go. We can't have everything. And there is no point in being upset when we (sonos listeners) have so much.

That is absolutely a good answer. Thank you. Also, I'll look at Plex, whatever that is. Have never heard of it. Thank you.

...the B&O phone... and your entire commentary

I remember that B&O phone! A thing of singular beauty. Gosh. Thank you for putting THAT into my day. Your entire commentary is greatly appreciated. I wish you were my neighbor. I'd bug the hell out of you and give you plants and food.

codecs and DD+ and of course wires

I never learned this much. No idea what this is. I don't even know what many of the buttons on my legacy components (Sonos Connect) do. Direct? Pure Audio? (Onkyo) I had some guys do a little house for me years and years ago. (1989?) Early 20s. People soldering things in amps. Key pads. Wires. A closet with stuff. I was young and I actually borrowed money from the bank to get it done. It was a BIG thing... imagine a car price. Actually paid on that for awhile. Monthly audio system payments! Imagine. Youth. Then got married. Then divorced (entirely my fault). Then sold the house. Ha! Always wanted to do it again, but didn't. Schools to be paid. Dumbazz stuff to try. (A racing sailboat... good heavens what a disaster leading to another divorce (again, entirely my fault.)) Now I'm too old and things are just different. I think I just want my playlists back... and maybe some more dogs. Maybe. Thank you so much for sharing your time.

Thank you all for commenting. If nothing else, you have helped me clarify to myself what I want.

DumbazzAuthor

Trending Lyricist I

Are there other aps other than the sonos app that can drive these sonos speakers? Can these speakers and the "network they create" (don't know if that is technically accurate, but you take my meaning I hope -- Bridges and Boosts etc) be "jail broken" (no idea what that actually means) and controlled by something else that will index a larger number?

DumbazzAuthor

Trending Lyricist I

[quote=jgatie] And it is true the amount of users who approach the limit is quite small, along with the fact that when Sonos last published the numbers, only 8% of the streaming on Sonos was local music files, the rest was via streaming services. I'll let this go and then go away, but this could be chicken and egg kind stuff. I stream NO local files. I used to. Now I use streaming services... because streaming my local files was unsatisfactory to me. I'd love to stream to stream local files. But there is circulus in probando here. Not a big deal. All good.

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