Arc Ultra + Era 300 (without Sub 4)

Welcome.
 

A great thing about Sonos kit is its flexibility. Try the ultra alone for a while. Then but the eras and add them to heat the differences. If you like it: keep them. Don’t like them: set them up in a different room. Or return them within the (30-day?) returns period for a refund. 

Hi Nik,
Thanks for the welcome 🙂.
Your reasoning is certainly correct, but I was interested to hear from someone familiar with Sonos products whether the Arc with the Era 300s is a balanced system overall; and also whether a Sub 4, based on your experience, can easily fit into a small room (perhaps by lowering the sub's level via the app).
If I understand correctly, with the addition of the Sub 4, the Arc Ultra's frequency response is cut at the bottom, and this is another variable that affects the system's output.
As you wrote, I could try and possibly return it, but I'd get the components from a friend/seller who wouldn't be able to take them back once ordered.
Of course, nothing stops me from purchasing the Arc from him and the rest of the parts online...

Do you have a drawing/picture of the room?

An Ultra will give a much better experience than sound from the TV though.
Would definitely go for the surround Era 300 even though the Ultra is a fantastic soundbar.
Fortunately, the Ultra has quite a lot of bass, but would definitely recommend a Sub 4 as well. It just gives a much deeper bass and experience.

The Sub 4 can be placed pretty much anywhere, but then there would be a difference in the bass depending on where it is placed. It is correct that the Ultra scales down the bass when a Sub is connected, that is natural since the Ultra can in no way cause the big bangs/shakes that a Sub can, it does try and do it ok.

Regarding your room, I would consider putting some acoustic panels up on the wall away from the TV or maybe on the ceiling. They are quite cheap and super easy to install.

The sub will complete the Arc Ultra. It allows the Arc Ultra to focus on frequencies other than the low-end. The rears are great as well to afford a full immersion experience. For the record I have three such setups. That said I’m very familiar with Sonos and your proposed setup 😀

However 13 square meters doesn’t say much as to the length and width of the room. Therefore as has been suggested either post a diagram of the room or at least provide length and width dimensions.

The room is 3.25 meters wide, 4.20 meters deep, and 3.10 meters high. There are curtains and a large fabric sofa, a 2.80 x 2.40 rug, and a table in the center. The room has no echo and has decent acoustics. I certainly can't acoustically treat it with panels because it's both my TV room and my dining room. I already have a 28-square-meter room dedicated to music, where I have a large 2-channel sound system; so the TV room needs to feel as much like a normal room as possible. The 77-inch Panasonic Z95B, which I've had for a few days, is already quite intrusive.By the way, to answer Peter, this TV has a built-in sound system that's quite different from the rest of the competition. It has a sort of front-facing soundbar, speakers on the sides, above, and a small subwoofer at the back, but even so, I'm not entirely satisfied: the sound feels a bit boxed and nasal, with dialogue sometimes unclear. That's why I thought I'd try a Sonos system.

Get the Sub, put it behind the couch with the 300s.

You won't regret getting it based on my listening here. The Ultra is pretty good but adding the Sub is a big step up. It is easy to toggle on and off as you are listening and see and feel the difference.

I have two Subs in a 10x10 foot room, one on a Beam and the other on a pair of 300s. It is not too much speaker for the space although a mini-Sub might have done decently there. Didn't try one as I had the Subs available. You might try a mini but your space and the Ultra make the full sized Sub a likely better fit.

You can return it if you are not satisfied but that would surprise me.

You are correct it is a small room. The upside is that you have the opportunity to buy the components and experiment with different setups using the Arc Ultra as the anchor. Then return the components you feel you don’t need  (sub or surrounds or both). Only you can determine what configuration sounds best to your ears. In a room the size you have you might consider a Sub Mini. 

One more thing:When I started this thread, I hadn't read any other topics here on the forum. Then I looked around and came across a thread accusing the Era 300s of not working well when used as surround speakers. I saw a long discussion ensuing (which was then interrupted without understanding the outcome), where the tone among forum members even got a little heated.This alarmed me a little, and I'd like to know if, after about a year, all these limitations (real or perceived) are still cause for controversy or if everything has been resolved and explained.I'm asking because I haven't purchased yet and would like to be sure before doing so. Otherwise, I'd go for just the Arc Ultra, without the Era 300.

Thanks again.

If you believe the Sonos representative’s answer, then it is resolved.  If you don’t believe Sonos and think every driver of every speaker must always be utilized in every possible configuration/room, regardless of sound quality and/or sound engineer intent, then it isn’t resolved. 

One more thing:When I started this thread, I hadn't read any other topics here on the forum. Then I looked around and came across a thread accusing the Era 300s of not working well when used as surround speakers. I saw a long discussion ensuing (which was then interrupted without understanding the outcome), where the tone among forum members even got a little heated.This alarmed me a little, and I'd like to know if, after about a year, all these limitations (real or perceived) are still cause for controversy or if everything has been resolved and explained.I'm asking because I haven't purchased yet and would like to be sure before doing so. Otherwise, I'd go for just the Arc Ultra, without the Era 300.

Thanks again.

Read the answer by ​@Jamie A in the post below. Ignore all the other comments 

The Era 300’s sound excellent. There were aspects that Sonos made adjustments for based upon comments in the community. However, At this stage since their introduction I’d say the sound parameters are set. There are always going to be people who think they know better than the designers. My advice is to ignore the noise. 

The concept that, in the surround configuration, not all drivers are operational, as this would compromise the proper functioning (as intended during production) of the rear channels, is clear to me.

Reading some posts, it seems that only the center tweeter aimed toward the heads is disabled, but other users suggest that more than one driver is "muted."
In the end, how many of the six speakers mounted in the Era 300 are operational?
This is just for information and to understand how it works, not to make a purchasing decision based on the number of speakers.

I forgot: I hope the distance isn't a problem, the two Era 300s would be placed close to the sofa, so quite close to the ears, if I understand correctly there is a setting in the app to select the correct distance.

Trueplay would take care of any fine tuning due to distance.  I don’t own ERA 300s for rears, but my ones are on either side of the couch and at ear level.  One is closer to my seating position than the other, and after Trueplay, I find they are perfectly balanced.  

As to the drivers being muted, each room is different.  Anecdotal complaints about one or more drivers not being utilized may or may not be the case with your particular room.  As ​@AjTrek1 said, much of it is noise, especially the “I paid for the whole speaker!” complaints that ignore all facts about modern spatial codecs.

I'm happy enough with mine I'm not interested in trying test tracks but if you are the Dolby site has some and explanations as well so it would be worth your time if you care about that sort of thing.

Finally, I've carefully considered the placement in the room, and I'm thinking of ordering the complete package (Arc Ultra + Era 300 + Sub4). However, I want to be sure of this: if I decide to turn off the Sub4 at any time via the app (the option shown in the photo), will the Arc Ultra simultaneously return to full low-end output, seeing as the subwoofer is no longer present? I wouldn't want it to sound cut off at the bottom because the configuration is set to a sub.This is important to me because even though I want the complete system, I'll often find myself listening with just the sound bar, for example while watching the news during dinner. I'm complicated, I admit…😄

Why would you not want the Sub on during the news? Since these kinds of programs are not vary bass heavy, the Sub will not do much anyway, so why would you be bothered?

With Trueplay on the crossover frequency cannot be changed, but you can change the volume of the Sub. I suspect this will not change the low end output of the Arc Ultra - it will still expect a Sub to take care of the lower frequencies.

Great acquisition! You won’t regret it. I’ve similar setup and sounds great, for music or movies. 
In my case, I upgrade with Era 300 in a second step, and the improvement is amazing. I don’t care if they are using all the drivers because the result is excellent, and I know I’ve two excellent speakers if someday I decide to move them alone as a stereo pair. 

Trying to answer to your last question, I’m not sure if when you turn off the Sub, the Arc’s behaviour is the same as if you ungroup the Sub. When I did it is very noticeable, but I have the previous Arc, so I should perform a wider test. Anyway, there is an option “Night sound” that you can active always and it reduces the bass and the volume effects to play the TV in a quiet way. Perhaps it’s what you’re looking for?

At the beginning, when I get the Arc+Sub I thought like you, why to listen the news with all the power of the setup?, but then, you discover that everything is better with the full power, even the news 😅

Ok, I understand that I can leave all the speakers on without any problems.

But with two-channel stereo audio, such as a news broadcast, do the two Era 300s remain completely silent, or does Sonos system activate a simulation to make them emit some kind of sound?

Good question, I recently dive in some forums looking for the answer to that. 
Usually, they are silent, or at least I can’t notice them. But sometimes, with a music or the show tune, you feel them, but after check, the source is 2.0. It seems that Sonos sw does a kind of job and when it detects that the source is feasible to convert to 5.1 it does it. 

I’m sure other users could give you a more detailed answer, but in summary, the rear speakers sound very low always, and sometimes do a louder job. But normally you can’t feel it unless you put your ear on the speaker.

In a live situation there could be hundreds of sound sources within the immediate area. Capturing and reproducing this environment is a very complex task. Sound sources come in various sizes, from a bass drum or battleship to a tiny insect, and from various directions as a result of motion and echoes. Mostly we humans detect sound with two tiny membranes, but there is also some full body involvement (think THUNDER and BOOM) that even a deaf person can perceive. Body involvement goes beyond the ears by detecting gross pressure changes from a BOOM. Because of the human head shape, displacement of our two ears, and the pinnae, our perception, or not, of a sound varies by its position relative to our head. It’s not always obvious as it is with pets and wild animals, but humans subtly move our heads in order to locate the origin of sounds.

You can explore your sensitivity to direction by playing a few single frequency signals of different frequencies on a cellphone, keeping the phone a constant distance from the center of your head. Move the phone laterally and vertically while playing each tone.

In a home audio reproduction system the result seems more realistic if audio can come from various directions, similar to the original scene. In addition to direction challenges there are also reproduction physical and electronic challenges. The large physical membrane required for the BOOM is not well suited for reproducing the sound of a mosquito. Nor can a small tweeter used for the mosquito contribute much to the BOOM. In the electronics we usually think of them, especially the “high end” variety, as being “neutral” and contributing nothing, positive or negative, to the result. I wish this was the case. “Intermodulation distortion” can be significant in power amplifiers. Basically, as the input signal becomes more complex, the power amplifier jumbles things.

OK, after the above digression, there are two basic values with respect to adding a subwoofer. With respect to the physics, the large membrane obviously does a better job of reproducing the BOOM and the smaller speakers don’t need to ineptly attempt to deal with it. With respect to the electronics, removing the extreme bass and routing it to a separate power amplifier reduces intermodulation distortion (humans are very sensitive to this) in the mid and high frequencies — resulting in cleaner sounding midrange and highs. In SONOS systems each speaker has its own power amplifier operating within a custom frequency range.

With respect to removing the subwoofer during news broadcasts or while playing low audio quality media, it’s a lot of bother with little benefit other than saving some power.

Many new to surround users expect to be constantly slapped in the back of their head by surround — else they didn’t get their money’s worth. A good first film to watch would be an action film, such as Top Gun. For these new users it is best to initially elevate the surround level.

That's not my case, though. I'm just asking to understand how the Sonos system works. In fact, I'm worried about the excessive "invasiveness" of the effects. I'm a fan of high-end two-channel systems, I certainly have a very different approach to the TV audio system, a different listening philosophy.

This photo of my audio system explains it better

I think you’ll find the ‘invasiveness’ to be non-existent, but if you feel it’s too much, you can certainly adjust the volume of the surrounds in the room settings. 

​@naim135 

You are correct…you are complicated 😊

Just to clarify….the Arc Ultra IMO (and I own three) as a stand-alone speaker or setup with Sub and surrounds will never give you the discrete two channel audio; that you seem to be accustomed to, as evidenced by your photo. Nice setup BTW.

The Arc Ultra is designed to act as right/center/left as most soundbars do along with the other special produced it can produce. The low-end produced by a news broadcast is not distracting IMO. In fact I never notice it as adding something extra. What the sub does do is relieve the Arc Ultra of low-end duties which when watching a news broadcast allows better focus on dialogue. However, your ears may be more sensitive to low-end sounds.

My listening system for discrete two channel audio consists of two Sonos rooms:

• Sonos Five’s x 2 (Streaming, NAS and CD via line-in)
• For vinyl  a Pro-Ject Carbon Black Sonos Edition mated to a Cambridge Alva Duo Pre-Amp into a Sonos Amp driving Definitive D7 Bookshelf speaker and Sonos sub.

For Dolby Atmos music

• Era 300’s x 2 with Sub *

To close…the gist of my post is to advise you not to purchase an Arc Ultra surround system expecting discrete two channel audio. If you are seeking an immersive movie experience that can also double as a music system then by all means buy the Arc Ultra with Sub and surrounds

 * On occasion I may listen to two channel audio due to location but IMO not as good as my Five’s

Of course, that's not my expectation, otherwise I'd use a pair of Genelec mini monitors that I already own. What I want, for example, is to be able to watch Netflix series while enjoying 5.1 and Dolby Atmos sound, and above all, a good midrange center channel that delivers warm, well-present dialogue. My Panasonic has decent built-in audio (compared to the average TV), but I find dialogue a bit "backward" and nasal. My previous TV was a Pioneer Kuro KRP-500, which had substantial speakers on either side with a delightful midrange, and I've never felt the need to add an external system, as I did with the new Panasonic.