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Contributor I
August 16, 2017
Answered

7K Sq Ft Home under construction; please help with Sonos design

Site:
3 level (basement, main floor, upstairs) home. 7k sq ft. Lot size about a half acre (want coverage for my lot/yard as well).

Requirement 1 - Great sound quality in major entertaining areas, all bedrooms, and the backyard grilling terrace, and dining courtyard.

Requirement 2 - so easy my kids can use it.

Requirement 3 - easy for guests to connect and stream their own music

My wifi will be robust inside and outside via a Ubiquiti Networks design being implemented. I can use that same WIFI network (separate VLAN?) for Sonos or can even do hardwired since the framing has just begun on the house.

There's a comms closet in the basement.

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    jec6613Answer
    Collaborator II
    August 19, 2017
    [quote=langonej]Awesome will do. I spoke with one but they didn't exude confidence in designing a proper Sonos solution. Maybe I just need to look harder. That's because at 7k square feet, Sonos stops being the ideal solution - I can count more places on your floorplan that I'd want audio in than Sonos itself can support as devices, which maxes out at 32. Just think about it, a decent surround sound setup easily has four devices at a clip (bar, two surrounds, sub), and other rooms can end up with two. Even if you're just using Connect and Connect:Amp devices, you're pushing the limits. By my count, I see about 15 independent zones with upwards of 50 total loudspeakers (not counting subwoofers) if you do it right.

    Most vendors doing this size of house are going to point you first to the Cadillac of solutions - Crestron or Elan, coupled with an Autonomic media server or similar, and there's a reason. Despite the sheer number of zones of audio, there's no need to have each zone independently playing its own audio stream. And then there may come into play issues of network contention (Sonos is hell on STP as it scales on a wired connection) that simply don't exist as you move into high-end home automation devices. Remember, despite Sonos being as awesome as it is, it's still on the upper edge of the low end as the absolute scale goes for whole house audio.

    If you really like Sonos, and it sounds like you do, your easiest option is going to be to couple it with a Russound or Niles distribution amplifier (I'm partial to Niles, I find their sound less artificial and more enveloping). Yes, run Ethernet everywhere, but also run speaker wire down to your MDF and into in-ceiling/in-wall speakers throughout the home. You can then use Connect:Amp to power some zones, and for others where the zones are going to be dependent (e.g. a back yard zone with 4-8 speakers), run a Connect into a distribution amplifier. That will cut down significantly on the number of broadcast/STP network devices you need, and still get you sound everywhere. Speaking of Sonos on a hybrid network, do be sure that you're back-ended on a good switch, HPE or Cisco or Juniper, and are using OSPF instead of spanning tree. A stacked 2960X (one with PoE) is all you really need. This is a solid middle of the road solution.

    If you really want to go whole hog and do it right, you should get Elan. It integrates with both Alexa and Sonos, as well as lighting control, climate control, surveillance, and major HT receivers from Onkyo, Denon, Marantz and Yamaha. You can give each resident a Sonos Connect that's their own, and pipe it anywhere in the house on demand, as well as pick up any of your controller devices (smartphone, touchpad, even wall keypads) and control the entire house from a single interface, right down to starting a movie playing on a Kaleidascape system as well as full Sonos control from your Elan system. Doorbells mute your music and pop up the camera on your devices as well as their own PoE powered touchscreens anywhere in the world. Be warned, it comes at a price tag and only through authorized vendors, and the equipment for a 7k square foot house is at least an entire 42U 2-post rack. But at the end of it all, all of your equipment is in a central location, you can change it out as times change and upgrade as needed, and is fully modular, while the wiring and loudspeakers remain unchanged (as they're tuned to each room individually).

    15 replies

    langonejAuthor
    Contributor I
    August 16, 2017
    I'd also add ideally it integrates with Alexa at some point because the house will be as automated as possible through Alexa and homebrew scripts. CCTV will be integrated with Alexa, for example.
    melvimbe
    August 16, 2017
    I'd recommend you hire a company that specializes in home audio/video for this. I think it would well worth the extra effort. You really need to have an back and forth conversation with a specialist who take your ideas and come up with an actual design before proceeding.
    Danny
    langonejAuthor
    Contributor I
    August 16, 2017
    I'd recommend you hire a company that specializes in home audio/video for this. I think it would well worth the extra effort. You really need to have an back and forth conversation with a specialist who take your ideas and come up with an actual design before proceeding.

    Awesome will do. I spoke with one but they didn't exude confidence in designing a proper Sonos solution. Maybe I just need to look harder.
    Stanley_4
    Grand Maestro
    August 16, 2017
    Call Sonos and see if they know someone in your area that know the Sonos system
    melvimbe
    August 16, 2017
    If an installer tells you some specific things you are unsure about, you can also ask them here. I'm sure you'll get a confirmation or clarification.

    BTW, I think it's a very smart choice to be thinking about Alexa integration, although it's not all there yet.
    Danny
    Collaborator II
    August 16, 2017
    Since you say you are building, and its a large house, make sure you put in lots of Ethernet drops BEFORE they close up all the walls. You will regret it if you try to go all wireless. Personally, I'd have a minimum of two runs to every room, and probably four for entertainment/home office/other-special-needs-rooms.
    jec6613Answer
    Collaborator II
    August 19, 2017
    [quote=langonej]Awesome will do. I spoke with one but they didn't exude confidence in designing a proper Sonos solution. Maybe I just need to look harder. That's because at 7k square feet, Sonos stops being the ideal solution - I can count more places on your floorplan that I'd want audio in than Sonos itself can support as devices, which maxes out at 32. Just think about it, a decent surround sound setup easily has four devices at a clip (bar, two surrounds, sub), and other rooms can end up with two. Even if you're just using Connect and Connect:Amp devices, you're pushing the limits. By my count, I see about 15 independent zones with upwards of 50 total loudspeakers (not counting subwoofers) if you do it right.

    Most vendors doing this size of house are going to point you first to the Cadillac of solutions - Crestron or Elan, coupled with an Autonomic media server or similar, and there's a reason. Despite the sheer number of zones of audio, there's no need to have each zone independently playing its own audio stream. And then there may come into play issues of network contention (Sonos is hell on STP as it scales on a wired connection) that simply don't exist as you move into high-end home automation devices. Remember, despite Sonos being as awesome as it is, it's still on the upper edge of the low end as the absolute scale goes for whole house audio.

    If you really like Sonos, and it sounds like you do, your easiest option is going to be to couple it with a Russound or Niles distribution amplifier (I'm partial to Niles, I find their sound less artificial and more enveloping). Yes, run Ethernet everywhere, but also run speaker wire down to your MDF and into in-ceiling/in-wall speakers throughout the home. You can then use Connect:Amp to power some zones, and for others where the zones are going to be dependent (e.g. a back yard zone with 4-8 speakers), run a Connect into a distribution amplifier. That will cut down significantly on the number of broadcast/STP network devices you need, and still get you sound everywhere. Speaking of Sonos on a hybrid network, do be sure that you're back-ended on a good switch, HPE or Cisco or Juniper, and are using OSPF instead of spanning tree. A stacked 2960X (one with PoE) is all you really need. This is a solid middle of the road solution.

    If you really want to go whole hog and do it right, you should get Elan. It integrates with both Alexa and Sonos, as well as lighting control, climate control, surveillance, and major HT receivers from Onkyo, Denon, Marantz and Yamaha. You can give each resident a Sonos Connect that's their own, and pipe it anywhere in the house on demand, as well as pick up any of your controller devices (smartphone, touchpad, even wall keypads) and control the entire house from a single interface, right down to starting a movie playing on a Kaleidascape system as well as full Sonos control from your Elan system. Doorbells mute your music and pop up the camera on your devices as well as their own PoE powered touchscreens anywhere in the world. Be warned, it comes at a price tag and only through authorized vendors, and the equipment for a 7k square foot house is at least an entire 42U 2-post rack. But at the end of it all, all of your equipment is in a central location, you can change it out as times change and upgrade as needed, and is fully modular, while the wiring and loudspeakers remain unchanged (as they're tuned to each room individually).
    Avid Contributor I
    August 19, 2017
    If your focus is on music (vs video or home automation) you should look at Roon for audio library and multi room. It is mainly software but becoming an ecosystem (Roon compliant). It is high end. If I was starting over I might look at Roon controlling Bluenote gear. Bluenote is similar to Sonos. Sonos cannot stream Hi Res music formats like MQA.
    langonejAuthor
    Contributor I
    August 21, 2017
    [quote=jec6613]Awesome will do. I spoke with one but they didn't exude confidence in designing a proper Sonos solution. Maybe I just need to look harder. That's because at 7k square feet, Sonos stops being the ideal solution - I can count more places on your floorplan that I'd want audio in than Sonos itself can support as devices, which maxes out at 32. Just think about it, a decent sur...).

    Thank you so much for this reply. There's not a lot of info on Elan other than marketing stuff. I'll try and locate a local dealer and get some help, but it looks like it's the route for me to go, especially if Elan has an API I can tap into (eg use geofencing to trigger API calls to Elan to do certain things in the house, or require 2-factor authentication for opening the front door).
    melvimbe
    August 21, 2017
    Something to think about...several of your rooms don't really need to be part of multiroom audio. Take the bedrooms (excluding owner's) for example. Do you really need for each room to be tied into a larger multiroom audio system? I would consider setting them up with their own isolated system. You could tie them into a sonos, or other, network, but 99% of the time, whoever's in the room is going to be selecting music to play in that room alone. Perhaps a stand alone echo, or an echo tied to a separate amp with in-ceiling speakers is the way to go.

    It's a much different size house, but I opted not to have my kids rooms as sonos zones, and went with echo's instead. It fit what they needed/wanted much better then sonos does (or did at the time). After the alexa/sonos integration, that could change

    Then there is other rooms like the media room. I would assume that again, 99% of the time, that's going to be an isolated zone, used for watching tv/movies/etc. I'd probably focus on getting the best system for that room without worrying about tying it to everything else. The same may apply to the exercise room, is there really much use in tying it to the rest of the house as far as sound system goes? That's debatable perhaps.

    You'll definitely want rooms like the rec room & wet bar, outdoors, all the rooms on the mid floor, and your owner's retreat to be part of the overall system, but the others...think about them and see what makes the most sense for each room.
    Danny