One simple request re the new Sonos app

@Airgetlam : Every app receives minor updates and bug fixes now and then. But the current process is way beyond that; and functions that have been essential to many users have not returned. Surely there is an endpoint at which Sonos can say that every function it intends to incorporate in the app is functional. If there are ‘features Sonos chooses not to include,’ then it can say so. 

There has to be a stage of development at which Sonos can say ‘we’re done,’ but for the minor tweaks that are to be expected with any app. We’re a long way from ‘minor tweaking’ when something as basic as restoring the basic playlist and queue editing function is out of commission and every update that’s issued just creates new problems for a large number of users.

As I said, I’m simply not going to update again until we reach a point of reasonable stability and reliability. I have no confidence that an update I might do now won’t disable my system entirely. 

@chambolle 

Why don’t you simply wait until you see the update that includes Playlist management and update then if that’s all you’re waiting for? In any case, playlists won’t be the last thing they are intending to implement, so you could be waiting a long time for any confirmation of them being ‘done’, not knowing that playlists have been there for some time.

As @Airgetlam rightly says, they are always updating to include user requests and to fix bugs. The app will never be in its final form. (The last app was still being updated regularly before the new app was rolled out.)

Please. Enough quibbling for the sake of quibbling.

I’ve had Sonos in my home for about a decade. I’ve been through countless app ‘updates’ over the years. There never has been an ‘update’ like this, that has all but disabled the operation of the systems of tens of thousands of users, leaving support staff overwhelmed and unable to resolve problems. 

Here’s a bright line ‘endpoint’: All of the content Sonos users were able to access prior to May 7 is accessible again — unless as a matter of policy Sonos has eliminated that content. All of the functions available prior to May 7 have been restored — with the same caveat. No more than 1% of Sonos users are experiencing loss of connection, slow response to commands, ‘cannot load data’ and similar error messages on a constant basis — and Sonos support is receiving no more than the usual stream of cries for help; no longer has ludicrous wait times because they are overwhelmed; and is no longer unable to resolve problems because the app is ‘still in development’ or ‘that is a known issue’ or ‘that’s coming in month X from now.’

Surely there will come a time when Sonos can issue an ‘all clear’ and we can be confident that the app will work with minimal effort on the part of users and with minimal failure and frustration.

That time should have been May 7, of course. But that’s water over the dam. Nevertheless, if and when that day comes, surely Sonos will have ‘gathered enough data’ to know it; and surely Sonos can tell us so those of us waiting for the dust to settle can get back to using our systems in the accustomed manner again.

It’s a simple ask; and it’s hardly too much to ask.

It’s not a simple ask at all.  Your definition of “all clear” may be completely different from everyone else’s, and you can’t expect Sonos to maintain 10s of thousands of definitions of “all clear”.  So they have to settle on one, and that one definition is going to piss off all the others who do not feel the same. 

In addition to that, some are never going to be “all clear”, or some may take months to be “all clear” due to their particular network configuration and/or the difficulty in finding a solution.  It won’t do Sonos any good to hold up the “all clear” for those 0.001% of users, because all the other users who could be having no problems at all will still be refusing to update until the “all clear” is reached. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but tell me this: how has Sonos determined when its app is ‘ready to go’ and released the app to the general public in the past? Surely it has benchmarks for reliability that dictate when it would only consider a version of the app to be in the ‘testing’ phase of development and when it’s ‘ready to go.’

Why can’t that same process be utilized here? And of course I understand there will always be some number of users for whom the app still presents problems… but if it’s your ‘0.001% of users,’ that’s a far cry from what seems to be orders of magnitude more users who have problems now.

If this had been done right to begin with, the ‘all clear’ should have been the original release date in May. But barring that, I still think at some point Sonos could say ‘it’s ready for prime time and it will work as intended for at least 99 out of 100 users.’

If it can’t do that, something’s wrong.

What I recommend to friends and family is to disable automatic updates to the Sonos devices and to the controllers. Then leave it disabled until first, Sonos releases an update you really want/need, and second it has been out for a week or more and the various forums aren't reporting bugs.

I've even recommended folks avoid S2 and not even update their S1 systems outside of dire need.

Reading the release notes prior to updating has proven inadequate too many times recently.

I have been kicking myself for not following my own advice but I never expected a screw up of this magnitude.

I posit again that "all clear" is up to the individual.  Sonos gives you detailed notes with a list of fixes/features in each release.  It's up to you to decide if the list meets your criteria for an "all clear" status.  Otherwise Sonos is simply giving out a "But you said it was all clear!" cudgel which the unsatisfied users will use to beat back at them.

Normally I would agree with this, but the problem that some of us face is that Sonos has designed it so that new versions of the app require a firmware update that is not reversible!

We know from posts here that some people are (allegedly) using the new app with not a single problem, while many others find their systems unusable, or seriously degraded.

So… at what point would someone like me gamble and “upgrade” from app version 16.1 - which works perfectly well for me - to version 80.x, knowing that if I happen to be unlucky and my system refuses to work properly, there is no way back?

As long as the irreversible nature of the “upgrade” exists, some of us will never “upgrade”.

@Stanley_4 : That’s been the problem. For months Sonos has been dropping partial ‘fixes’ and each time I’ve immediately seen ‘Community’ posts that say the latest update is a mess and warning not to download it. I approach each one with trepidation, worried I’ll lose what little function I have now.

I guess there’s nothing to do but wait and hope.

Never updating is an option, unless you really need something only available in the new release it is a good plan. One issue with that is if a controller updates accidentally or a friend with WiFi access and a new controller active visits.

I also get near daily criticism of my decision to update and kill the spouse's CR-100s. Almost as often my "upgrade" to speakers with no real buttons comes up.

Going back to the original point, isn’t this entire thread solved by the earlier point I made that when you see the update that includes the functionality you want (in this case playlist management), and provided there are no naysayers suggesting otherwise at the time, go ahead and update?

(@Antifon, there’s no ‘allegedly’ about it, I’m fortunate enough to say...)

Well I guess that’s justified on her part, though I’m sure not deliberate on yours…

I think a lot of people (including me) got caught out by not realising that auto-updates for the app and auto-updates for the system are two separate things. You can turn off auto-updates in the system, and still end up with 80.x on your phone.

The really big long-term problem is a cultural one. Before this debacle, I would guess that most people would be like me: implicitly trusting of the Sonos software release process. Up until May I would religiously keep my system up to date.

I would also guess that the majority of “established” Sonos users will have made the same transition to implicitly NOT trust the Sonos update process. That won’t be easy to change. Perhaps Sonos management don’t understand this - or perhaps they do but don’t care.

How does that solve the problem if there is no going back? Even if “only” 1 in 100 users are having their systems trashed by the latest update, why would I risk that one percent chance, knowing that there is no way to get back to my 16.1 working system?

I think you overestimate people’s willingness to accept their system being totally screwed up, with no “Plan B”.

That would be a viable option only if we could be confident that when Sonos says an update includes feature X that (1) feature X will actually work; and (2) adding the update including feature X will not screw up features Y and Z that were already working.

Unfortunately, until now such confidence appears to be unwarranted.

Honestly. If Sonos cannot say ‘it works!’ with a reasonable degree of confidence, and it does not in fact work for the overwhelming majority of people, why would Sonos release an update at all; and why would it be unwilling to say ‘come on in, the water’s fine!’ if the update does work.

If the water’s teeming with sharks, we ought to know that before we’re encouraged to dive in. And if it isn’t, we should know that too.

I cannot comprehend why it’s unreasonable to expect a consumer product to work when it’s released; and to be forewarned when it’s defective and probably will not work for a significant number of consumers.

There will be no point at which everyone’s system works. Not everyone's system worked before the updated app, despite people seeing that as a Utopia, and it will be the same afterwards. 
It’s impossible to know if the system will work upon updating - so at what point do those holding back take the plunge? If you’re not willing to risk a 1% chance then I can’t see there ever being a time you’ll update because it’s likely that at least 1% of people’s systems are not working at any one time.

You are working in the SW industry, right?
Then I hope you know well such basic terms as “Software Engineering Process”, “Definition of Done”, “Quality Assurance”, Quality Control“, “Release Management".
Do you think anyone in your protege Sonos have ever heard any of those? :)

There are some ways to revert to an earlier controller version, that is if you have not updated the devices to an incompatible version. I don't see a way to prevent that on Android unless you disable all auto-updates.

I do think folks are seeing the problem  the S2 app has a 1.4 star Google app store rating this morning. This reputation crash has to be hurting sales and it isn't going be easily or quickly fixed.

I’m seeing 1.2 since long time already.

My point is that Sonos created this situation.

Up until May nobody - me included - worried about reversibility.

Now people like me do - it’s not tolerable that Sonos don’t provide any mechanism at all to roll back.

And please don’t present this as “problems that emerged after release”. Sonos staff have themselves admitted that significant bugs were known to be present in the initial May release, but the app auto-update went ahead anyway.

I’m not quite sure how this relates to the words I typed so I shall bid this thread good day.

It’s an explanation of why a significant proportion of the Sonos user base can’t do what you suggested, without taking a significant risk of turning a working system into a non-working system. We know that Sonos has a history of releasing software with known problems, while offering no way back.

I hope you can see that, looked at from another person’s point of view.