Would I benefit from a dedicated DAC?

This salesperson BS is so old it is almost a cliche. It's complete horsehooey, and is only used to justify $10/ft speaker wire. The fact is, some components (like speakers) are far more important than things like amps (of which 99% are neutral in sound) and cables (which, unless complete crap, will not color the sound AT ALL!). Let me guess, next you are going to say we need to make equal length speaker runs because the electrons will arrive at different times if you don't?

It's quite the opposite, the classic sales person BS was that speakers are the most important part.

Why? In hi-fi there is 40-50 points on speakers and 30 on electronics. So up-sell the speakers and make the most money.

Cables, interconnects, power conditioners are all complete rubbish and I categorize them as criminal.

No amp is transparent, but I understand what you mean by most are relatively neutral..but that doesn't change the fact that the more powerful the amp the better control it has of the speaker and the better your system sounds.

Good power doesn't come cheap either, and if you are using a really power hungry speaker like a pair of B&W 803s then don't expect to drive them with an amp you picked up for 500 bucks.

I use to work in Hi-Fi sales and could tell you every trick in the book, my opinion that I state is based upon actual experience testing and installing equipment...but take it or leave it.

It's quite the opposite, the classic sales person BS was that speakers are the most important part.

Why? In hi-fi there is 40-50 points on speakers and 30 on electronics. So up-sell the speakers and make the most money.

Cables, interconnects, power conditioners are all complete rubbish and I categorize them as criminal.

No amp is transparent, but I understand what you mean by most are relatively neutral..but that doesn't change the fact that the more powerful the amp the better control it has of the speaker and the better your system sounds.

Good power doesn't come cheap either, and if you are using a really power hungry speaker like a pair of B&W 803s then don't expect to drive them with an amp you picked up for 500 bucks.

I use to work in Hi-Fi sales and could tell you every trick in the book, my opinion that I state is based upon actual experience testing and installing equipment...but take it or leave it.

Sorry, but nothing is more critical to the sound, and nothing can color the sound more, than speakers. They are more subjective and more varied in sound than anything else, by 1000 times. Listen to 100 amplifiers and I dare you to find a difference, given the same output. Listen to 100 sets of speakers, and I dare you to find two that sound the same. Price markup means nothing, upselling is a tactic with all electronics (and 30-50 points is nothing compared to accessories and cables, especially in these low margin times). Fact is fact, and if you want to change your sound (notice I said change, quality is partly subjective), changing speakers is the easiest and most effective way to do it.

Sorry, but nothing is more critical to the sound, and nothing can color the sound more, than speakers. They are more subjective and more varied in sound than anything else, by 1000 times. Listen to 100 amplifiers and I dare you to find a difference, given the same output. Listen to 100 sets of speakers, and I dare you to find two that sound the same. Price markup means nothing, upselling is a tactic with all electronics (and 30-50 points is nothing compared to accessories and cables, especially in these low margin times). Fact is fact, and if you want to change your sound (notice I said change, quality is partly subjective), changing speakers is the easiest and most effective way to do it.

We will have to agree to disagree, source, amp and speakers all play an important role in the quality of audio. I've heard horrific sounding amps, speakers and sources, as well as good sounding ones.

I've listened to far more than 100 amps and speakers in my day and I can stand by the fact that they both make a difference.

No amp is transparent, but I understand what you mean by most are relatively neutral..but that doesn't change the fact that the more powerful the amp the better control it has of the speaker and the better your system sounds.

Good power doesn't come cheap either, and if you are using a really power hungry speaker like a pair of B&W 803s then don't expect to drive them with an amp you picked up for 500 bucks.



I see your point, but here is a slightly different take on it.

There are speakers - even high end expensive ones today - that are difficult to drive, where the impedance drops at lower frequencies, that demand powerful amplifiers to cope with them. If you have these, then of course you need the more powerful electronics to drive these well, and they aren't cheap.

But there also are better designed speakers that present the same impedance to the amp, across the frequency range. It really doesn't matter then if the impedance is as low as 6 ohm, as long it remains so across the frequency range.

For such speakers, it really doesn't matter what source/amp is used, unless one insists on vinyl, where good enough turntables may not come cheap. Obviously, the upstream shouldn't be poor quality, but developments in upstream solid state and digital tech and reliability have led to a situation where good enough quality is available from all the known brands, even from their budget lines.
For such speakers, the quality of the Connect amp, as an example, is good enough. As is the quality of the DAC in it, as well as that in the Connect. As I have experienced it for the last ten years, progress in the upstream is now happening in the realm of convenience as in the case of the Sonos offering, and not in that of source/amp quality to an extent where it can be heard. I refer to straight audio here of course, the Home theater stuff is a different ball game.

The same still isn't true in the case of speakers, where obtaining an amp friendly load and natural voicing from the speaker units need some care in selection. And perhaps a little more spend than that for upstream components.

Finally, speaker positioning and room acoustics still remain vitally important to the quality of the heard sound, and listening environments vary widely enough to make this the place where time/money/efforts spent yield the most benefits.

We will have to agree to disagree, source, amp and speakers all play an important role in the quality of audio. I've heard horrific sounding amps, speakers and sources, as well as good sounding ones.

I've listened to far more than 100 amps and speakers in my day and I can stand by the fact that they both make a difference.

A simple blinded test will re-ground you....

It´s just as I stated already:

It´s all about speakers and room accustics, the rest of the chain is not so important as them.

nevertheless - I am happy that we agree, that selling junk like "special cables" and other esoteric things is very much indeed nothing else than criminal.

cheers

D.

A simple blinded test will re-ground you....

It´s just as I stated already:

It´s all about speakers and room accustics, the rest of the chain is not so important as them.

nevertheless - I am happy that we agree, that selling junk like "special cables" and other esoteric things is very much indeed nothing else than criminal.

cheers

D.

Like I said, it's an agree to disagree thing...but what it boils down to is to what degree we are talking about, we could hook up a 20 dollar amp to a 2000 dollar pair of speaker and it could sound as bad as a 2000 amp on a 20 dollar pair of speakers.

As long as we like what we hear its all good. 😃

As I have experienced it for the last ten years, progress in the upstream is now happening in the realm of convenience as in the case of the Sonos offering, and not in that of source/amp quality to an extent where it can be heard. I refer to straight audio here of course, the Home theater stuff is a different ball game.

What do you mean by "the Home theater stuff is a different ball game"? You think there're not playing in the same category ? That audio amps are superior to HC amps?

Because if the DAC inside the Sonos is quite enough for Hi-fi, so why not pushing this reasoning a little bit further and taking a network amp (A/V Receiver), which does reading + amp for you in one step ? 😉

What do you mean by "the Home theater stuff is a different ball game"? You think there're not playing in the same category ? That audio amps are superior to HC amps?

No, they are not superior/inferior, just different. HT amps have more channels, and digital processing software to cater to the needs of the application that has different demands from straight 2 channel audio. In the latter domain, there hasn't been much technical progress in the last three decades perhaps.

All right. Thanks.
Actually, I am in the process to buy a stereo system with network reading. Most of the professional I've visited told me I was looking for a sonos + external DAC + amp + speaker. I answered that perhaps I could just take one HT amp with network capability (DLNA) + speaker.
I really like the sonos system, but it's quite expensive, especially if you add a DAC behind !
I mean, for the price of the sonos + DAC + amp, can't we get a HT amp that sounds almost the same ? And we get the extra possibility to upgrade the system later with more speakers to take full advantage of some SACD (5.1, like Pink Floyd, Dire Straits or classical music).

I hope I am not completely off topic...

Actually, I am in the process to buy a stereo system with network reading. Most of the professional I've visited told me I was looking for a sonos + external DAC + amp + speaker.

Sonos makes sense only if you are looking for multi room, multi user audio, from a common music server, where anyone at home can play the music they prefer, in the room they happen to want music in. One - or more - of the zones(rooms) can be a high end 2 channel audio system, and using just a Sonos Connect to feed a 2 channel amp+good speaker pair will give you stereo sound as good as what the speaker pair is capable of producing from any source. You also have the option of playing the same music in all rooms, in perfect sync.

5.1 channel music doesn't get better than what high end 2 channel stereo can deliver, considering the influence of speakers on the delivered sound, and a speaker pair can be expensive enough:)

If your interest is to have networked audio in just one room - 2 channels or more -there are better/cheaper solutions than Sonos.

Note also that while Sonos is probably the best solution out there for its application, it does need periodic attention/software maintenance as an inevitable price to pay for its multi room, multi user wireless architecture. If you want music in just one room, other solutions will be more stable, particularly if you can live with a wired network connection to a network ready amp, eliminating the need for wifi.