Would I benefit from a dedicated DAC?

Musikliebhaber,
Welcome to the forums...

... and a huge +1 from me for your post.

Cheers,

Keith

... and a huge +1 from me for your post.

Ditto to the +1!

Very few people seem to get this - that speaker quality and room acoustics contribute to over 90% of the quality of the sound you hear. Today, even budget electronics upstream of the speakers are good enough, as are cheap, adequate gauge cables. And Sonos via wireless, using lossless music files is as good a source as high end CD players, and can hold its own in high end audio set ups.

I will add that speaker positioning in the room also is very important, as the interaction between the speakers and the room is determined by that. And the tweeters need to be at the level of your ears when you are seated in your listening position.

I can add an interesting anecdote. This weekend we did a listening test 4 people compared 3 source systems. It was a blind test.

Setup:
ProAc 2.8 speakers
Classe CAP-151 integrated amp

Source:
#1 Audio Alchemy Paganini CD player
#2 Stock Sonos
#3 Sonos with the Wyred4Sound I2S mod and a Wyred4Sound DAC-2

Many hours later after many CD's and corresponding FLAC's the result was everyone agreed:
The warmest sound was in order #3,1,2
The clearest was #3,1,2
The best for classical #3,1,2
The best for blues and "muddy" music: 2,1,3
The best overall: #3,1,2

But the difference was very small, much smaller than expected and 2 people put 1 and 2 equal more than 80% of the time.

The only area the stock sonos lost consistently in was clarity and definition! But when the sources and price tags were revealed we all agreed that for 99.9% of the time the stock Sonos was the way to go and use the money for good food and wine and invite your friends over instead.

Peter

use the money for good food and wine and invite your friends over instead.

Peter
+1 to that as an operating philosophy!

In addition, any blind test delivers colored results, if you haven't ensured that all combinations are producing the exact same volume of sound, while doing the comparisons, without any of the upstream electronics being pushed beyond designed output power levels.

The ears are very sensitive to quite small differences in sound levels, and these differences are heard as better/worse sound quality. Accurate equalization usually results in very little heard difference caused by system changes upstream of the speakers.

I can only speak from my own experience, but adding a Rega dac into my system yielded a significant improvement in overall sound - sufficient even for my girlfriend to acknowledge she could hear the difference. The sound is, in a word, better: bass is deeper and richer; the soundstage is much clearer and the quality of the sound is much more pleasant to listen to. Even at £500, I reckon it's absolutely great value for money.

I can only speak from my own experience, but adding a Rega dac into my system yielded a significant improvement in overall sound - sufficient even for my girlfriend to acknowledge she could hear the difference. The sound is, in a word, better: bass is deeper and richer; the soundstage is much clearer and the quality of the sound is much more pleasant to listen to. Even at £500, I reckon it's absolutely great value for money.

Well....

I did NOT say that the Rega is a bad CDP... but the simple TEAC Pro-CD-Reader in the RipNAS server did its job clearly better. The Sonos System does "just" transfer the datastream and serve as a internal database/User-Interface.

Regarding the fact that the REGA Planet has had already its 10th Aniversary this is everything but surprising... ;-)

I use geithain 901k Main Monitors and a Funk MTX Preamp - like most of the broadcasting stations in Germany do - this equipment is like a "microscope for music reproduction" - With this you can really hear the difference very clear.

But my message worth thinking about is the fact, that neutrally reproducing speakers, intelligent positioning of them and a well-done work concerning rom accustics (and perhaps a fine, neutral Preamp) will bring you to heaven in music... and the influence of the rest of the equipment is much less than people think...

Just by the way: neutral reproducing speakers must NOT be high-priced.

Good old speakers like that of the 7o´s and 80´s if the last century produced by HECO, Canton, and so on have been relatively neutral and they cost nearly nothing if you find them. If you add between some hundred to a thousand USD/EUR for proper measurements and room accustics the reproduction (and your joy of listening - if you want realistic music-performance) will dramatically (!!!) improve. And: Just normal cables will do their job - the PROs use cables for 1-2 USD/meter.... 😉 because you cannot hear the difference between cabls, if you do a blinded, scientific test (see the post of someone above) ...

Nowadays people like sounding - they lost their knowledge about nature of Instruments and of realistic reproduction.
Companies are not at all dump - the scientific basis of psycho-accustics exist completely since the 60´s - so the better ones of the Speaker Companies were not only able but also willing to go for realistic reproduction.

over the years more and more Companies went for "scientific sounding" which is just the other way of reproduction. Sounded reproduction manipulates the original signal in a special way - every company nowadays has its own "sounding signature" .
Sounding is nothing but a special, wanted specific colouration of sound. At first glance, it seems nice and interesting, but with time it´s boring and bad sound - for those who DO KNOW the real sound of instruments or human voice.

You want to have the very demanded sound of "The Singer seems to be just in front of the band, you can nearly touch her/him" ?

No Problem! You just separate the Mid-speaker and the Tweeter too high - 1kHz too high is already enough for that type of sounding. The effect is: The dispersion of the mid is narrowed in the higher mids - on axis this speaker is well balanced (important for tests) BUT off axis it isn´t neutral. Voilá, your effect you wanted as a marketing director ...

Same is possible more easy with 2-way speakers with incorrectly separation (Bass separation too high) ...


It´s like a good meal.....

"People have unlearned to eat - the only thing they do now is to swallow things" (Paul Bocuse)

cheers

D.

But my message worth thinking about is the fact, that neutrally reproducing speakers, intelligent positioning of them and a well-done work concerning rom accustics (and perhaps a fine, neutral Preamp) will bring you to heaven in music... and the influence of the rest of the equipment is much less than people think...



+1 to your thoughts.

With respect to the quote, I'd say that all fine amps are by definition neutral. A classic definition of a good amp is that it should be as a straight wire with gain.

+1 to your thoughts.

With respect to the quote, I'd say that all fine amps are by definition neutral. A classic definition of a good amp is that it should be as a straight wire with gain.

Yes, indeed.

"behavior like a straight wire" is perfect.

The word "neutral" might be a little bit misleeding, I confess.

Nowadays amp normally haven´t real problems with coloration , it is more about canal separation and precision (mostly in bass reproduction) ...

BUT: One has to use real top speakers to be able to identify these very subtile differences of the amps...

98% of the problems of reproduction are about speakers and room accustics.
So, investments have to be done THERE to get the best out for the money.

I think, you will agree.

cheers

D.

Yes, indeed.

"behavior like a straight wire" is perfect.

The word "neutral" might be a little bit misleeding, I confess.

Nowadays amp normally haven´t real problems with coloration , it is more about canal separation and precision (mostly in bass reproduction) ...

BUT: One has to use real top speakers to be able to identify these very subtile differences of the amps...

98% of the problems of reproduction are about speakers and room accustics.
So, investments have to be done THERE to get the best out for the money.

I think, you will agree.

cheers

D.

Good sound starts at the source, your system is only as good as it's weakest link.

Saying speakers are the most important part is like saying the cartridge is the most important part of a turntable.

Good sound starts at the source, your system is only as good as it's weakest link.

Saying speakers are the most important part is like saying the cartridge is the most important part of a turntable.

This salesperson BS is so old it is almost a cliche. It's complete horsehooey, and is only used to justify $10/ft speaker wire. The fact is, some components (like speakers) are far more important than things like amps (of which 99% are neutral in sound) and cables (which, unless complete crap, will not color the sound AT ALL!). Let me guess, next you are going to say we need to make equal length speaker runs because the electrons will arrive at different times if you don't?