Sonos sub, not impressed

  • 2 October 2023
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I have a sonos sub paired to two fives, a one and a one sl in my living room. While I like the 5s and ones, im just not impressed with the sub for music. I’ve changed settings in it, turned trueplay off, moved the sub etc, and I just don’t like how it sounds. For $800 it doesn’t seem to produce much bass. 
 

I have an Amp connected to two klipsch aw650s that are outside right now (will be coming inside this winter). 
 

Can I use the amp with a 3rd party sub bonded to the 5s?  I think my wife will lose it if I hang up ANOTHER pair of speakers in our living room. Although I do like the 650 more than the 5s. 

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22 replies

buzz

You cannot bond a passive subwoofer to the FIVE’s with this scheme, but you could Group the AMP/passive subwoofer with the FIVE’s. I don’t recommend this scheme because there will be some very subtle synchronization issues and you will not have a proper crossover for the FIVE’s.

U
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You cannot bond a passive subwoofer to the FIVE’s with this scheme, but you could Group the AMP/passive subwoofer with the FIVE’s. I don’t recommend this scheme because there will be some very subtle synchronization issues and you will not have a proper crossover for the FIVE’s.

So I would need to do it with wired speakers then?

 Could the sync issue be why I’m not happy with it currently? I use the 5s and ones together with the sub bonded to 5s

buzz

Sensitivity to the potential sync issue varies between individuals. I’m hyper about this. Many people don’t seem to notice. Probably the insensitive individuals are better off. There are unavoidable network variabilities and an occasional packet will be dropped and need to be resent. Each player has its own connection details to deal with. SONOS works with a 75ms data cache. If a packet is lost, data in the cache will be used and the player will slip behind by one data block. Eventually, one or more cache’s might empty. From time to time SONOS will realign the sync. and refill the cache. If you are are sensitive to this sort of activity, you’ll perceive a gentle shift in the stereo image or alignment with the subwoofer. As I said personal sensitivity to this varies. In your Group’d SUB scheme the risk of detectable sync events is higher.

In my opinion a more significant issue is lack of a bass crossover for the FIVE’s. Both the FIVE’s and SUB will be delivering bass. There will also be some unnecessary midrange smearing in the FIVE’s. A  crossover prevents this and this is one of the benefits of adding a subwoofer with a proper crossover. Also, there could be bass sync issues between the two speakers covering the bass.

C
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You say that when you connect two fives and a sub, the sonos five don't work in full range? Do they start from the sub frequency cutoff? It should be able to be added and thus obtain the complete sound of the five, in that case it is a waste

jgatie

You say that when you connect two fives and a sub, the sonos five don't work in full range? Do they start from the sub frequency cutoff? It should be able to be added and thus obtain the complete sound of the five, in that case it is a waste

 

No subwoofer/speaker combo designates each as full range.  That would cause a bloat in the overlap.  There’s alway a crossover, and it’s not a brick wall.  As the frequency goes down, the duties gradually shift from the speakers to the sub.  This is a GOOD THING!  Sub frequencies take a lot of power, power which is robbed from the upper frequencies.  When the Sub is handling these power robbing low frequencies, the Fives will be freed up to better power the frequencies they do best. 

C
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You say that when you connect two fives and a sub, the sonos five don't work in full range? Do they start from the sub frequency cutoff? It should be able to be added and thus obtain the complete sound of the five, in that case it is a waste

 

No subwoofer/speaker combo designates each as full range.  That would cause a bloat in the overlap.  There’s alway a crossover, and it’s not a brick wall.  As the frequency goes down, the duties gradually shift from the speakers to the sub.  This is a GOOD THING!  Sub frequencies take a lot of power, power which is robbed from the upper frequencies.  When the Sub is handling these power robbing low frequencies, the Fives will be freed up to better power the frequencies they do best. 

I understand, I said it more as to also take advantage of the low frequencies of the five and not that these frequencies are controlled only by the sub, thanks a lot for your answer 

buzz

The FIVE’s incorporate a “crossover” that passes the extreme lows to SUB and removes them from the FIVE’s. There are two benefits. First, there is no double dipping of the lower frequencies. Second, since the lowest frequencies sent to SUB are removed from the FIVE’s, the FIVE’s will have a simpler job and the midrange will be clearer.

C
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The FIVE’s incorporate a “crossover” that passes the extreme lows to SUB and removes them from the FIVE’s. There are two benefits. First, there is no double dipping of the lower frequencies. Second, since the lowest frequencies sent to SUB are removed from the FIVE’s, the FIVE’s will have a simpler job and the midrange will be clearer.

Thank you Buzz, I understand that, the range frequency will go from like 20hz to 80hz (Sub) and from 80hz will start the five´s.  I just like to feel a lot of the lows frequency, since the sonos five are very efficient in the mids and high frequencies.  Grateful for your response

jgatie

Thank you Buzz, I understand that, the range frequency will go from like 20hz to 80hz (Sub) and from 80hz will start the five´s.  I just like to feel a lot of the lows frequency, since the sonos five are very efficient in the mids and high frequencies.  Grateful for your response

 

A crossover doesn’t work like that.  It’s not a brick wall at 80 Hz, 80 Hz is just the midpoint.  It is actually gradual, with overlap, over a range of frequencies.

C
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The FIVE’s incorporate a “crossover” that passes the extreme lows to SUB and removes them from the FIVE’s. There are two benefits. First, there is no double dipping of the lower frequencies. Second, since the lowest frequencies sent to SUB are removed from the FIVE’s, the FIVE’s will have a simpler job and the midrange will be clearer.

Thank you Buzz, I understand that, the range frequency will go from like 20hz to 80hz (Sub) and from 80hz will start the five´s.  I just like to feel a lot of the lows frequency, since the sonos five are very efficient in the mids and high frequencies.  Grateful for your response

Buzz let me ask you something since I have read your comments with very good knowledge on your part. I have my home cinema in the living room with Beam 2 gen, sub mini and two play 1 and also on one side, two sono five and a Sub, when I group the two areas to listen to music since they are in the same room, the subs seem not to add up, as if they cancel each other out, I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly, they are not close to each other, but it seems to harm instead of benefit

jgatie

Buzz let me ask you something since I have read your comments with very good knowledge on your part. I have my home cinema in the living room with Beam 2 gen, sub mini and two play 1 and also on one side, two sono five and a Sub, when I group the two areas to listen to music since they are in the same room, the subs seem not to add up, as if they cancel each other out, I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly, they are not close to each other, but it seems to harm instead of benefit

 

Subwoofer waves are gigantic.  When you have two sub sources, depending on the room and where you are in it, two waves crossing can cancel each other out, causing a null.

buzz

SUB and the room interact with each other - that’s the physics of the situation. You can explore this. Play a track with a thumping bass and walk the room, very close to the walls, carrying a pack of Post-it’s. You’ll come across spots where the bass is accentuated. Mark these spots with a Post-it. There will also be spots where the bass is doubly accentuated. Mark these spots with !!. As you step back you’ll notice that the Post-it’s are more or less symmetrically distributed around the room. The Post-it’s are placed at “peaks”. About midway between peaks is a “null” where bass will be diminished. If you place a SUB or your chair at a peak, bass transmissions will be more efficient.

In my college apartment I discovered a monster peak and placed a chair on that peak. Male listeners loved this chair because bass seemed to explode from within your body. If I moved the chair a few inches the peak was gone.

After you become familiar with peaks and nulls, you will notice smaller peaks and nulls in three dimensions throughout your space.

C
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Buzz let me ask you something since I have read your comments with very good knowledge on your part. I have my home cinema in the living room with Beam 2 gen, sub mini and two play 1 and also on one side, two sono five and a Sub, when I group the two areas to listen to music since they are in the same room, the subs seem not to add up, as if they cancel each other out, I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly, they are not close to each other, but it seems to harm instead of benefit

 

Subwoofer waves are gigantic.  When you have two sub sources, depending on the room and where you are in it, two waves crossing can cancel each other out, causing a null.

I think that must be happening, What do you think I should do? move it or remove one of them?

jgatie

I think that must be happening, What do you think I should do? move it or remove one of them?

 

Tough call.  You can try.  Another thing to do is change the phase on one of the Subs (Settings > System > (Sub room name) > Sound > Sub audio > Phase Control).  This will change the phase of the sub waves, possibly causing the null to move.

K

I think that must be happening, What do you think I should do? move it or remove one of them?

Very easy to see what removing one of them does to the sound from the other by turning one off, so why don’t you try that first? Experiment with both Subs. It should then be easy to know which one needs to be turned off for best music results when both are in one group.

Subs are tricky especially when it comes to music SQ outcomes - less so for movie effects. I find Trueplay to be essential to get the right outcome from a play 1 pair+ Sub set up. And where one Sub is tricky, two can be a challenge unless you know exactly how to set up two in a way that complements each other - it is rarely even necessary to have two, in most cases.

C
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I think that must be happening, What do you think I should do? move it or remove one of them?

 

Tough call.  You can try.  Another thing to do is change the phase on one of the Subs (Settings > System > (Sub room name) > Sound > Sub audio > Phase Control).  This will change the phase of the sub waves, possibly causing the null to move.

waooo JGatie, I didn't know that you could change the phase of the Sub from the app, thank you very much, that will surely solve it, I know well the meaning of the phase difference, and that is what could have been happening, given that when listening to both subs together, one of the two canceled.  I'm going to try it later, I'll let you know.  Regards

C
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I think that must be happening, What do you think I should do? move it or remove one of them?

Very easy to see what removing one of them does to the sound from the other by turning one off, so why don’t you try that first? Experiment with both Subs. It should then be easy to know which one needs to be turned off for best music results when both are in one group.

Subs are tricky especially when it comes to music SQ outcomes - less so for movie effects. I find Trueplay to be essential to get the right outcome from a play 1 pair+ Sub set up. And where one Sub is tricky, two can be a challenge unless you know exactly how to set up two in a way that complements each other - it is rarely even necessary to have two, in most cases.

Thanks Kumar, I had already tried those options, if you read what I wrote to JGatie, it could already be the solution to the problem, in this way I can leave both zones with subs, thus avoiding phase cancellation when joining them.

K

Thanks Kumar, I had already tried those options, if you read what I wrote to JGatie, it could already be the solution to the problem, in this way I can leave both zones with subs, thus avoiding phase cancellation when joining them.

Changing the phase on one Sub may work, but it also may not. Worth a shot of course, since it is also easy to do from the app.

buzz

Changing the phase of a subwoofer will tend to exchange the peaks and nulls discovered during my walk exploration above. It will usually be very clear if this helps your situation or not. Go with what sounds best.

Stanley_4
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With non-Sonos subs we had to do a good bit of experimentation with positioning to get the most even sound in a room.

Try both in one corner.

Try them in opposing corners and then adjacent ones.

Try them centered on one wall, then opposing walls and finally adjacent walls.

Working with your results from that will give you a good place to start looking for a final position.

You might want to try using Trueplay at the best sounding couple positions.

 

Tip, use long extension cords to save having to power cycle the Subs.

U
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You say that when you connect two fives and a sub, the sonos five don't work in full range? Do they start from the sub frequency cutoff? It should be able to be added and thus obtain the complete sound of the five, in that case it is a waste

I have since connected the sub to my ones, and while watching movies, streaming from MacBook via airplay, the sub is ok. Not great, but ok. But while playing music, from Jazz, to folk, to red dirt, some rap crap, and whatever else in between, I am just not impressed with what it does for its price. Maybe mine is defective? 

I have the true-lay off in my living room where all this is, I have adjusted the eq up down and in between, and it just does not do it for me music wise. Like I say, watching a movie using it, it is ok, not great. But music wise I am really disappointed. 

I am thinking of getting an svs and using it to see what it can do instead. 

C
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I think that must be happening, What do you think I should do? move it or remove one of them?

 

Tough call.  You can try.  Another thing to do is change the phase on one of the Subs (Settings > System > (Sub room name) > Sound > Sub audio > Phase Control).  This will change the phase of the sub waves, possibly causing the null to move.

waooo JGatie, I didn't know that you could change the phase of the Sub from the app, thank you very much, that will surely solve it, I know well the meaning of the phase difference, and that is what could have been happening, given that when listening to both subs together, one of the two canceled.  I'm going to try it later, I'll let you know.  Regards

Hello JGatie, I had not been able to write before to tell you that you have been correct in your assessment, changing the phase from 0 to 180 in one of the subs, the matter has been resolved, from the first moment you could notice after having made the change, the difference in the subs without the cancellation being noticed, again thank you very much for your contribution.  Regards

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