Is MOVE the only SONOS product on your network?

After one of these events, submit a diagnostic. SONOS staff can review and comment.

Move is my only Sonos device.  I plan on submitting the log to support but was checking to see if users had any similar experiences.  Lots of threads on “out of sync” but as it relates to watch TV.  

SONOS is designed to maintain time alignment of SONOS players when “Grouped” to play the same music. In this mode of operation SONOS has control of everything. This is not easy technology and SONOS has a number of patents in the area. In your system of various manufacturers, there is no way to guarantee synchronization.

In a previous era one could have two CD players, each playing a copy of the same disc, start them both at the same instant and by the end of the first track there would be an obvious time skew. This is similar to your situation where Spotify is sending music to multiple players that have no means of synchronizing with each other. Spotify can send data to all of the units simultaneously, but if one unit works through its block of data before the rest of the units are ready for the next block, there is no easy choice for recovery.

buzz, thanks.

Your CD analogy makes sense.

Is this a wireless issue or an issue with the way Apple AX vs Sonos vs Denon handle packets?

I was planning on getting a few more Sonos Moves to fill some gaps (front porch, BBQ area, back porch and garage) but I think I better hardwire those areas to something more traditional.  I bought the Sonos to try as Apple had discontinued the AX.  The AX had been reliable but maybe that is because it is in the apple ecosystem and they had greater control.  Although it doesn’t explain why the Denon and AX always stay in sync.

I don’t know exactly how the Spotify App sends music to a bunch of players. The Spotify App is an odd sort of duck because it is aware of SONOS units and how to handle them. I don’t know if this awareness extends to Denon and the AX.

Which network client were you monitoring above?

I can’t explain why the Denon and AX seem to stay in sync, likely it is a fortunate accident. It is possible that some WiFi interference messes with things. The SONOS diagnostic will log communication difficulties that MOVE encounters.

In the case of multiple SONOS units, in addition to buffering enough data to ride through brief communication issues, the units are also sharing clock information in order to keep units tightly synchronized. You can ‘pair’ SONOS units (perhaps two MOVE’s) into a L/R ‘Room’. Synchronization must be very tight or the left/right image will flop around. You can have multiple pairs in a large Group of SONOS players that will remain time aligned with in a millisecond or two for extended periods. If the communication environment, wired or wireless, is difficult and a player’s buffer is emptied, the player will mute until more data arrives. Extended data starvation can result in other actions, depending on the music source.

buzz,  thanks for the time.

Spotify on mini mac → Airfoil → (3 wireless): Denon, Airport Express (to a another amp) and Sonos

                                         Wired→ Denon 

                                         Wired→ McIntosh

Not certain that answered the “Network Client”.

I sent the log to support and they confirmed that “interference” might be an issue.  Plan is to change the channel for 5G.  If that doesn’t work then move Sonos Move far enough away to for 2.4G.

I think ‘pairing’ would cause all Sonos to go out of sync with the wired and other wireless units.  Would it be better to leave them ‘unpaired’ in case the other locations don’t have interference issue?

By “Network Client” I mean: which device has the IP address of 192.168.1.22?

Let’s make sure that we are sharing a common ‘lingo’. I think that I mislead you somewhat with that “pair” comment. A more proper description would have been “’bonded’ (a SONOS term) as a stereo pair”. This is different from ‘pairing’ Bluetooth units with each other. In your case with only one SONOS unit, you cannot build a stereo pair of SONOS units.

Expanding on my “clock” comment a little: The music is sampled at 44.1Khz. Obviously we should play at 44.1Khz. What if the playback device is running a little slow and we are actually playing at 44.09Khz? On human terms, the slight change in pitch and tempo is insignificant, but if we have three playback devices sharing the same data stream while running at different clock rates, eventually two of the clients will run out of data (at different times). In your case it seems that MOVE runs out first. If the SPOTIFY client is very capable, it might be able to send independent streams to each client, but it cannot change the clock rate of any unit. In the SONOS ecosystem SONOS players share their clock information and can synchronize with each other. This is why SONOS units can play together all day and through the night while remaining time aligned.

192.168.1.22 is the Sonos Move.

Regarding the clock/sampling point.  We tend to run the music in the background like a department store...runs most of the waking hours.  All the devices (except Sonos Move) keep pace all day.

When the issue happens, your hear a click on the Sonos Move then its a fraction of a second out of sync.  I’ve never let it run longer so I don’t know if it get further behind over time or not.

I changed the channels and lowered the 2.4Ghz signal to force Sonos to 5Ghz to see what happens.  If it fails again I will disconnect anything on the patio that might be causing interference (fan, BBQ, camera) and then see what happens.  If neither solve the issue I’ll move Sonos into the house next to the router and test again.

I’ll report back on the results.

Thanks again.

I’d also, honestly, be tempted to power down that Move completely, wait a minute or two, then power it back up, to force a reload of the OS on it. 

Airgetlam, will do.

buzz,

Stumbled across a potential clue but I’m not certain.

I have a list of things to try; power recycle, move it closer, force to 5G, etc.

I’ve power cycled Sonso (failed), Changing the channel (still failed) and forced Sonos to 5G (still failing).

Thinking of your explanation about timing (falling behind) I paused the song, waited a few seconds then restarted the song.  It still was out of sync but maybe that makes sense as it paused but picked up where it last left off.  So I skipped to a random song and it was still out of sync.  I would have thought that would have sync’ed Sonos back to the rest of the speakers.  Seems like once it loses its place it stays that way until I take the speaker offline then back on.

Thoughts?

Update:

I had been working with support (chat) and they turned me over to phone support.  Working with them, they felt the problem was that I did not have the Sonos S2 app loaded on my server.  

In the process of doing that now but how does the S2 app play into my scenario?  Is it hijacking the signal keeping things in synce with the Spotify or what is comeing into Spotify and being played on my mac mini?

Sorry, what do you mean by “loaded on my server”? What server are you speaking of? The controller app exists on a mobile device, or sometimes (less frequently these days) on a desktop machine. The only “server” in this equation is the Spotify “server”. There’s nothing in your original post about a “server” device. 

Airgetlam,

Regarding “loaded on my server”.  For me, everything related to Music services (Spotify, Apple Music, Personal Library) are all played from a server, a mini mac running OSX.  In my post I mentioned:

My connection to Sonos: Spotify on a Mini Mac, Orbi Router to Orbi Satellite to Sonos 

Is that my problem...I’m trying to do something Sonos was not designed to do?

That’s not a “server” in the typical sense, except for your Personal music. The software on the speakers reaches out across the internet (first in your local LAN, then from your router to the outside world) to reach Spotify and Apple Music, the Mac Mini isn’t even in that equation, except as a place where the controller software acts as a remote control to reach the software running on the speakers.

Except it looks like you’re trying to do this another way, using Airfoil on your Mac to get the sound to the Sonos speaker(s) as well as other devices simultaneously (the Denon and another amp) , which is antithetical to the way Sonos is designed  to work. Perhaps antithetical is a strong term, but certainly not a standard way of using a Sonos speaker, by any stretch. 

I’m certainly with @buzz as to not knowing how the Spotify client made by Spotify works. Much more, although not intimately, familiar with the way you’re supposed to use the Sonos controller to tell your speakers to connect to Spotify and have them connect and play that stream. 

I think another challenge here is it’s unclear what issue we’re trying to solve. Is ti the timing between the “other” devices and Sonos? Is it the Sonos connection to AirFoil/AirPlay 2 on your Mac?

I am much more familiar with the standard “Use the Sonos controller, add Spotify to it, and play Spotify on the Sonos speakers”. But I get the feeling that your issue goes way beyond using the Sonos software at all, and you’re trying to use this/these Sonos devices not as networked computers/Sonos speakers at all, but as merely network speakers, ignoring the essentials of the Sonos software in order to send your own data across the network. In which case we’re dealing with multiple network issues, and not really Sonos issues, I’d think. 

It’s not that I think @buzz or I want to confuse you further, but it’s unclear at this point what it is that we’re trying to work with you on, and how exactly you have your system set up. Or maybe you’ve stated exactly how you’re trying to get this system working, and it’s so far out of my own personal experience that I’m at a loss. My “reboot the device” suggestion frequently works when a Sonos speaker is out of sync with another Sonos speaker, but may not have the same impact when attempting to sync across multiple non-Sonos connections. 

My apologies for taking you down a potentially useless path. 

No apologies needed and my apologies in advance for the long reply.   I love the help and hopefully it will lead to a solution for more than just me.  

“That’s not a “server” in the typical sense, except for your Personal music. The software on the speakers reaches out across the internet (first in your local LAN, then from your router to the outside world) to reach Spotify and Apple Music, the Mac Mini isn’t even in that equation, except as a place where the controller software acts as a remote control to reach the software running on the speakers.”

My configuration comes from several years...maybe even decades ago, before Apple had “airplay”, Spotify or Apple TV existed.  The Mac Mini acted as a media server and served up music from my library, DVD/DVR content, photos and more.  Access to the media server was via VNC on a phone, ipad or laptop.  Everything was in one spot and could be accessed from any room but the VNC was clunky and not family friendly.   Fast forward several years and, no need for photos anymore (replaced by AppleTV, Smart TV’s, mirroring, etc), no need for DVD’s (streaming is as fast as I need), but I still have a need to broadcast music so I need a place where everything is assemble and pushed out.  So the way it works for me: the Mac Mini pushes out music (Spotify, Apple Music or whatever), to several rooms (maybe 12 in total but several are consolidated by receivers/amps).  Spotify runs on the Mac Mini (not on my iPhone).  The Mac Mini then sends the content to each device, some are wired and some are wifi.  Instead of VNC I now use my phone, ipads or laptops (all in the mac ecosystem) to control the song with an easy interface (see pic).  In addition to this I have setup scenes that run through the same server ie: “xxxx, play evening jazz” which then instructs the Mac Mini to set the lights to a preset and launch my Spotify jazz playlist with a set volume level. 

“Except it looks like you’re trying to do this another way, using Airfoil on your Mac to get the sound to the Sonos speaker(s) as well as other devices simultaneously (the Denon and another amp) , which is antithetical to the way Sonos is designed  to work. Perhaps antithetical is a strong term, but certainly not a standard way of using a Sonos speaker, by any stretch.”

I’m open to another way and will try loading/configuring S2 but so far it doesn’t look like it plays well with everything I have.  

“I think another challenge here is it’s unclear what issue we’re trying to solve. Is ti the timing between the “other” devices and Sonos? Is it the Sonos connection to AirFoil/AirPlay 2 on your Mac?”

Everything works great except the Sonos Move.  All music stays in syn all day long but every 20 to 30 minutes the Sonos Move gets behind a fraction of a second and the longer it is on the further behind it becomes.  Support suggested interference but I found it interesting that if I randomly pick a song when Sonos is failing that it still stays behind.  I would have thought it would have started fresh.  This could be a Sonos issue but I wonder if it could be an Airplay or Airfoil issue.  

“I am much more familiar with the standard “Use the Sonos controller, add Spotify to it, and play Spotify on the Sonos speakers”. But I get the feeling that your issue goes way beyond using the Sonos software at all, and you’re trying to use this/these Sonos devices not as networked computers/Sonos speakers at all, but as merely network speakers, ignoring the essentials of the Sonos software in order to send your own data across the network. In which case we’re dealing with multiple network issues, and not really Sonos issues, I’d think.”

You might have answered my question...if Sonos Move is not designed to be used outside of the Sonos ecosystem then it might not be a good fit for me.  

An alternative...I could just keep taking Sonos offline/online via Airfoil which re-syncs it the rest of the house but I love the puzzle.  

Well, I’ll be fascinated to follow this thread to see how you resolve it. But I’m somewhat sanguine about finding a real solution. But then again, that’s based out of ignorance, not direct knowledge. 

Best of luck!

Bruce, buzz,

Would you say that it doesn’t make sense to use S2 in my circumstances?

Happy to give it a try but I don’t see where it fits for my use case.

I wouldn’t expect there to be any difference between the two versions, for the purposes you’re using the device for. 

thanks. 

reporting back.

After eliminating everything I can think of the Sonos Move still fails...even when I put the speaker next to the router.

Airfoil and Apple support were helpful but have no clue why, except interference.

I ordered a Bose and Wonderbloom and I’ll see how those work out and report back.