End of Software Support - Clarifications

End of Software Support - Clarifications
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S
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OK, what is the processor?

 

But knowing that some speakers have 32 bit processors and some have 64 bit, makes everything a little more interesting.

 

 

How do we know this?

Smilja

Any of the Sonos devices marked as AirPlay 2 receiving devices.

In addition to the Airplay2 devices, the newer hardware Play:1 speakers are also 64bit iirc. 

 

I guess that one got Sonos right. No need for cumbersome explanations why specific Play:1s are Airplay-enabled, whereas others are not.

 

 

Sonos says that they need the same firmware versions to run in all speakers….But surely the speakers with 32 and 64 bit will not actually be running the same firmware, even though both firmwares have the same firmware number.

 

They do now, so why they ought not in the future?

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
S

Any of the Sonos devices marked as AirPlay 2 receiving devices.

In addition to the Airplay2 devices, the newer hardware Play:1 speakers are also 64bit iirc. 

 

OK, what is the processor?

Imx6 A9 dual core 1ghz

D
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Imx6 A9 dual core 1ghz

Yeah, that is what i found also.

 

This is a 64 bit processor.

When Sonos released it’s first product, there were no 64 bit arm processors, so they must be 32 bit.

Maybe the first products weren’t even using ARM processors, but pre 2010, 64 bit processors for stuff like what sonos did, was not a thing.

S
Userlevel 3
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Any of the Sonos devices marked as AirPlay 2 receiving devices.

In addition to the Airplay2 devices, the newer hardware Play:1 speakers are also 64bit iirc. 

 

OK, what is the processor?

Imx6 A9 dual core 1ghz

I didn’t see that this is a 64bit processor.  Looks 32bit to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.MX#i.MX_6_series

D
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They do now, so why they ought not in the future?

Offcourse they can.

 

Sonos has CHOSEN not to….But it would be possible to do if they wanted.

 

The “We can not make it run on different firmware revisions” is bogus, and in reality, the reason they have chosen this approach is to “force” their costumers to invest in new speakers.

D
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I didn’t see that this is a 64bit processor.

https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i.mx-applications-processors/i.mx-6-processors/i.mx-6quadplus-processor-quad-core-high-performance-advanced-3d-graphics-hd-video-advanced-multimedia-arm-cortex-a9-core:i.MX6QP

 

It supports a 64 bit ram configuration. I doubt a 32-bit processor would be capable of that. :)

S
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I didn’t see that this is a 64bit processor.

https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i.mx-applications-processors/i.mx-6-processors/i.mx-6quadplus-processor-quad-core-high-performance-advanced-3d-graphics-hd-video-advanced-multimedia-arm-cortex-a9-core:i.MX6QP

 

It supports a 64 bit ram configuration. I doubt a 32-bit processor would be capable of that. :)

Looks 32bit to me.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.MX#i.MX_6_series

D
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I didn’t see that this is a 64bit processor.

https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i.mx-applications-processors/i.mx-6-processors/i.mx-6quadplus-processor-quad-core-high-performance-advanced-3d-graphics-hd-video-advanced-multimedia-arm-cortex-a9-core:i.MX6QP

 

It supports a 64 bit ram configuration. I doubt a 32-bit processor would be capable of that. :)

Looks 32bit to me.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.MX#i.MX_6_series


From my link :

 

and optimized 64-bit DDR3 or 2-ch., 32-bit LPDDR2 support.

 

But then again…...A9 core.

 

ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore is a 32-bit processor core

S
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I didn’t see that this is a 64bit processor.

https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i.mx-applications-processors/i.mx-6-processors/i.mx-6quadplus-processor-quad-core-high-performance-advanced-3d-graphics-hd-video-advanced-multimedia-arm-cortex-a9-core:i.MX6QP

 

It supports a 64 bit ram configuration. I doubt a 32-bit processor would be capable of that. :)

Looks 32bit to me.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.MX#i.MX_6_series


From my link :

 

and optimized 64-bit DDR3 or 2-ch., 32-bit LPDDR2 support.

That is fine.  However memory support is not directly related to the processing core.  A9 cores are 32bit.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A9

S

I didn’t see that this is a 64bit processor.

https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i.mx-applications-processors/i.mx-6-processors/i.mx-6quadplus-processor-quad-core-high-performance-advanced-3d-graphics-hd-video-advanced-multimedia-arm-cortex-a9-core:i.MX6QP

 

It supports a 64 bit ram configuration. I doubt a 32-bit processor would be capable of that. :)

Looks 32bit to me.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.MX#i.MX_6_series


From my link :

 

and optimized 64-bit DDR3 or 2-ch., 32-bit LPDDR2 support.

That is fine.  However memory support is not directly related to the processing core.  A9 cores are 32bit.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A9

I stand corrected.

Smilja

They do now, so why they ought not in the future?

Offcourse they can.

 

Sonos has CHOSEN not to….But it would be possible to do if they wanted.

 

The “We can not make it run on different firmware revisions” is bogus, and in reality, the reason they have chosen this approach is to “force” their costumers to invest in new speakers.

 

I see. You are working in the production department at Sonos giving away internal details. :nerd:

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
S
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OK, so we have had some good discussion on microprocessors.  So far, it looks like they are ARM9 32-bit.  At some point, there were some charts that showed all SONOS model numbers along with their memory capacity.  I wonder if the source of that info could add the microprocessor as an extra bit of useful info across the entire range.

 

From the other point of view, where is the original information that suggests Airplay 2 would require a 64-bit processor at the receiving speaker?  Again, at the receiving speaker, not the source (iOS, iPhone, etc...)

J

I personally feel that I probably understand less than 5% of the complexities of how Sonos does what it does. The confidence of some contributors to this thread about what is and isn't possible has often surprised me.

I imagine almost anything could be achieved.  But at what cost to reliability of performance? Or to the other essential developments that Sonos needs to stay ahead of the competition?

I admit I don't know. It just seems to me that if the course Sonos has taken was so easily avoided then Sonos would have avoided it. 

S
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I personally feel that I probably understand less than 5% of the complexities of how Sonos does what it does. The confidence of some contributors to this thread about what is and isn't possible has often surprised me.

I imagine almost anything could be achieved.  But at what cost to reliability of performance? Or to the other essential developments that Sonos needs to stay ahead of the competition?

I admit I don't know. It just seems to me that if the course Sonos has taken was so easily avoided then Sonos would have avoided it. 

I was just looking for evidence to back up a fact that was presented, nothing more...

S

OK, so we have had some good discussion on microprocessors.  So far, it looks like they are ARM9 32-bit.  At some point, there were some charts that showed all SONOS model numbers along with their memory capacity.  I wonder if the source of that info could add the microprocessor as an extra bit of useful info across the entire range.

 

From the other point of view, where is the original information that suggests Airplay 2 would require a 64-bit processor at the receiving speaker?  Again, at the receiving speaker, not the source (iOS, iPhone, etc...)

The Ikea speaker supports  Airplay2 and is the samee Arm9  as the play1 

S

I personally feel that I probably understand less than 5% of the complexities of how Sonos does what it does. The confidence of some contributors to this thread about what is and isn't possible has often surprised me.

I imagine almost anything could be achieved.  But at what cost to reliability of performance? Or to the other essential developments that Sonos needs to stay ahead of the competition?

I admit I don't know. It just seems to me that if the course Sonos has taken was so easily avoided then Sonos would have avoided it. 

I was just looking for evidence to back up a fact that was presented, nothing more...

I think that was aimed at the poster claiming Airplay2 requires 64bit proc and perhaps at myself who was mistaken about the processor.

J

My comment  was not aimed at either of you and definitely wasn't in response to either of your comments. 

 

K

I did not invest in any Hue products for that very reason.


The difference i feel, between a Hue bulb and a Sonos speaker, is that the price of a sonos speaker is a lot higher than the price of a sonos speaker, and also, a bulb has always been a disposable item, whereas this has never been true with regards to speakers and sound systems.

 

Digressing a little - if the Hue bridge issue calls for replacement of many bulbs it becomes an issue of costs,inconvenience and environmental damage; I don't know if that is the case there.

Plus, the latest LED bulbs are no longer disposable as the old filament bulbs were, they are now built for years or even decades of service life in a typical home. So landfilling them before they die is just as irresponsible as doing that to a working Sonos speaker. And those that believe that recycling of such products, even where it is actually done, is as complete as it is for paper and tin cans are allowing themselves to be fooled because it is convenient to do so.

G
Userlevel 6
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I did not invest in any Hue products for that very reason.


The difference i feel, between a Hue bulb and a Sonos speaker, is that the price of a sonos speaker is a lot higher than the price of a sonos speaker, and also, a bulb has always been a disposable item, whereas this has never been true with regards to speakers and sound systems.

 

Digressing a little - if the Hue bridge issue calls for replacement of many bulbs it becomes an issue of costs,inconvenience and environmental damage; I don't know if that is the case there.

Plus, the latest LED bulbs are no longer disposable as the old filament bulbs were, they are now built for years or even decades of service life in a typical home. So landfilling them before they die is just as irresponsible as doing that to a working Sonos speaker. And those that believe that recycling of such products, even where it is actually done, is as complete as it is for paper and tin cans are allowing themselves to be fooled because it is convenient to do so.

 

The Philips thing is not really comparable with the Sonos end of support is it.

Firstly the bulbs (which are the vast bulk of any Philips hue system) are all compatible with the standard ZigBee communication protocol which makes them compatible with many many devices, and they’re all still supported anyway - so none of them have to be scrapped or go to Landfill as you suggest.

Also, no one likes to have to spend money, but the total cost to upgrade a Philips hue system to the current bridge is just £36 on eBay for a brand new bridge delivered or less for a secondhand device.

It’s hardly a comparable cost to the consumer when viewed against the Sonos costs to customers with end of support devices is it!

Also I don’t think in the UK we are fooling ourselves with regard to recycling - we’ve not perfect but in 2017 the recycling rate for England was 45.2%, compared with 46.3% in Northern Ireland, 43.5% in Scotland and 57.6% in Wales - so it’s definitely not just paper and tin cans being recycled in the UK.

K

@Goodbye Sonos : unless one knows exactly what those numbers are, what they mean, and how they are computed, they are just numbers and therefore not meaningful - the old thing about lies, damned lies, and statistics applies.

It is extremely difficult/expensive to extract anything significant in a way that reduces what physically goes into some landfill from something like a Sonos play 5 unit or a Connect Amp. Apple claims to do a lot of this for their products via specially designed robots and machines, but assuming that is not just PR, I do not believe that Sonos has the scale to match that kind of effort.

I agree that if the Hue does not result in bulb changes, it is not that big a deal. But the principle still applies where IoT devices are concerned. I am not sure what a internet enabled smart fridge did in 2015, or what it does even today for that matter, but imagine a situation where the one sold in 2015 can no longer do what the one sold today does, unless one buys the new fridge. Even while the 2015 one is discharging its basic function of cooling just as well as it did when new. Far better to have a fridge with a changeable internet interface module attached to it.

D
Userlevel 7
Badge +5

Digressing a little - if the Hue bridge issue calls for replacement of many bulbs it becomes an issue of costs,inconvenience and environmental damage; I don't know if that is the case there.

Plus, the latest LED bulbs are no longer disposable as the old filament bulbs were, they are now built for years or even decades of service life in a typical home. So landfilling them before they die is just as irresponsible as doing that to a working Sonos speaker. And those that believe that recycling of such products, even where it is actually done, is as complete as it is for paper and tin cans are allowing themselves to be fooled because it is convenient to do so.

But this is only the bridge they want people to change right ?

If they want you to throw away working bulbs it is every thing as horrible as the Sonos deal.

G
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

Digressing a little - if the Hue bridge issue calls for replacement of many bulbs it becomes an issue of costs,inconvenience and environmental damage; I don't know if that is the case there.

Plus, the latest LED bulbs are no longer disposable as the old filament bulbs were, they are now built for years or even decades of service life in a typical home. So landfilling them before they die is just as irresponsible as doing that to a working Sonos speaker. And those that believe that recycling of such products, even where it is actually done, is as complete as it is for paper and tin cans are allowing themselves to be fooled because it is convenient to do so.

But this is only the bridge they want people to change right ?

If they want you to throw away working bulbs it is every thing as horrible as the Sonos deal.

Yes, Its just the bridge - total cost £36 or less on eBay

G
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

@Goodbye Sonos : unless one knows exactly what those numbers are, what they mean, and how they are computed, they are just numbers and therefore not meaningful - the old thing about lies, damned lies, and statistics applies.

It is extremely difficult/expensive to extract anything significant in a way that reduces what physically goes into some landfill from something like a Sonos play 5 unit or a Connect Amp. Apple claims to do a lot of this for their products via specially designed robots and machines, but assuming that is not just PR, I do not believe that Sonos has the scale to match that kind of effort.

I agree that if the Hue does not result in bulb changes, it is not that big a deal. But the principle still applies where IoT devices are concerned. I am not sure what a internet enabled smart fridge did in 2015, or what it does even today for that matter, but imagine a situation where the one sold in 2015 can no longer do what the one sold today does, unless one buys the new fridge. Even while the 2015 one is discharging its basic function of cooling just as well as it did when new. Far better to have a fridge with a changeable internet interface module attached to it.

have a look at http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/784263/UK_Statistics_on_Waste_statistical_notice_March_2019_rev_FINAL.pdf if you want the background on the stats - I am sure if you are interested you’ll be able to investigate this fully and understand UK recycling.

K

But this is only the bridge they want people to change right ?

If they want you to throw away working bulbs it is every thing as horrible as the Sonos deal.

It seems that it is just the bridge - and I did point out in my first post on this that I wasn't sure what was to be thrown away in the Hue case - and I based my comment on the following conclusion from that article:

Relentless progress is an inevitability of the consumer tech industry, but while we may be resigned to upgrading our laptops and phones every few years, if not sooner, the thought of doing the same with IoT infrastructure is far tougher to swallow.

As I wrote later, if the IoT infrastructure in this particular case does not include the bulbs, it isn't that big an issue. But in other cases, it could well be as big an issue as it clearly is for Sonos.

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