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I’ve spent a total of about 5 hours on the phone with Sonos tech support with no good results.

I’m installing a Sonos home theater for my customer in a room with dimensions of 36’ X 25’ X 18 ‘ ceiling and cement slab floor. Using Arc Ultra, Sub 4 and an Amp for existing hardwired surround sound speakers to be used with their TV.

It seems that Sonos has decided that when the Amp is used for surround sound speakers only, that they are going to decided what proportion of the audio signal goes to the Arc and the surround sound speakers. That is  . . . . . there is no individual volume control for each of the surround sound speakers. Now I know there’s a “Level” audio control and a speaker distance control but there is no “individual” “volume” control.

My issues is  . . . . my customer has paid almost a thousand dollars for a 125 watt per channel stereo amplifier, which when used to power two stand alone floor standing speakers, will knock your socks off, yet when used to power two small 5 inch dual cone wall speakers, they can’t be heard above the overpowering volume of the Arc Ultra. AND ……. there’s no way to individually control or get the maximum power out of the Amp to those speakers. It’s a fact that only a small proportion of the audio is fed to the surrounds and the amount of volume control given to the user is only a very limited “level” and “distance” control. 

I spoke to 3 Sonos technical support agents and moved to the “higher” tech support team and after trying quite a number of possible cures, the conclusion was that “they understood the problem but there was no solution” to be able to individually manually increase the volume of the surround sound speakers in proportion to the Arc Ultra, any more than what Sonos had decided was the proper proportion to feed to them.

To give an example, lets say you set the Arc Ultra at 50% volume, the Amp surround speakers automatically will only put out a maximum of about 20 / 30% volume. If you reduce the volume of the Arc Ultra to 25%, the surrounds drop down to 10 / 20% volume. You can reduce the proportion from that setting but you cannot make it more than the maximum level that Sonos has decided they think you should listen to them. AGAIN ….. That’s a $1000.00, 125 watt per channel amplifier, that cannot drive two small speakers loud enough to be heard along with a sound bar. 

The customers 25 year old  Onkyo receiver allowed him to change the volume of each of the speakers individually as determined by where he is sitting and where the surround speakers are located in this very large room. 

WHAT  ?  ?  !

because of the construction of the room, there isn’t any way to get AC power up to where the surrounds are located to be able to use Sonos surround speakers. So he’s got $4,000.00 invested in a modern “up to date”, “state of the art”, “technically advanced”, “expensive” sound system, (THAT I RECOMMENDED THAT HE BUY ! ! !)  that doesn’t work as good as a 25 year old hardwired receiver.

Thank you Sonos !

 

Have you tried increasing the TV Level slider under the Surround Audio setting in the Sonos app?

If I understand correctly you are using existing non-Sonos speakers with the Amp. These need more power/volume than the Amp gives at the normal Sonos settings?

If the above suggestion does not work, would replacing the surround speakers by Sonos by Sonos speakers work? That way possibly Trueplay would do its magic.

Remember that Sonos is supposed to “just work” for consumers who should be able to set up a system themselves. Possibly avoid them making mistakes, Sonos provides limited settings and no advanced settings. This makes a Sonos set up less suitable for more professional set ups that might require more tweaking to work well.

Have you tried increasing the TV Level slider under the Surround Audio setting in the Sonos app?

Hi Guitar, Thanks for the suggestion but yes,  I referred to it in my post as the “level” control. This is one of the first things the Sonos tech told me to adjust. It is not really a “volume” control. As I understand it. A “level” control just controls the maximum volume output that the volume control is allowed to put out. Adjusting this caused only a very little effect on the volume of the surround speaker.

Have you tried increasing the TV Level slider under the Surround Audio setting in the Sonos app?

Hi Guitar, Thanks for the suggestion but yes,  I referred to it in my post as the “level” control. This is one of the first things the Sonos tech told me to adjust. It is not really a “volume” control. As I understand it. A “level” control just controls the maximum volume output that the volume control is allowed to put out. Adjusting this caused only a very little effect on the volume of the surround speaker.

No, this is not correct. The Surround Audio TV Level control will “increase or decrease the volume of the surround speakers when watching TV”. This is how I balance the levels of my Era 300s with my Arc Ultra.

Read more here:

https://support.sonos.com/en-us/article/change-surround-audio-settings

 

What model TV does your customer have? What other devices are connected to the TV? What streaming apps does your customer use?

If I understand correctly you are using existing non-Sonos speakers with the Amp. These need more power/volume than the Amp gives at the normal Sonos settings?

Hi Rallye,

Yes, That’s correct.

If the above suggestion does not work, would replacing the surround speakers by Sonos by Sonos speakers work? That way possibly Trueplay would do its magic.

As I mentioned in my post, there are not any AC outlets up on the wall where the existing speakers are located. And, since the room is built on a cement slab, with painted Wainscot paneling ¾ up the wall, there is no way to run AC power to the spot on each wall where the existing speakers are.

 

Remember that Sonos is supposed to “just work” for consumers who should be able to set up a system themselves. Possibly avoid them making mistakes, Sonos provides limited settings and no advanced settings. This makes a Sonos set up less suitable for more professional set ups that might require more tweaking to work well.

Yes, I truly understand that but . . . . as I said, it just isn’t understandable that an almost $1000.00, stereo, 125 watt per channel amplifier, that can drive two or more large, 4 to 8 ohm floor standing speakers, to distortion levels, in some cases, cannot adequately power two small, dual cone, 5 inch speakers. I mean, that’s all this Amp is doing! Two, relatively little tiny speakers, being driven by a 250 watt amplifier! The speaker cones should be flying across the room! Yet, with the Arc Ultra set at a nominal volume setting for a Netflix action movie and the Surround Level setting set to maximum. The Surround Distance setting set to the furthest distance, I have to get up on a ladder and put my ear to the surround speakers to hear any sound.  

Why Sonos would put such a restriction, with no option for adjustment, on the output of this powerful amplifier, is beyond me.

I’m at a loss as what to do at this point. If the customer doesn’t accept this (which, in my opinion, he shouldn’t) I’m faced with telling him to pack it all up, send $5000.00 worth of equipment back to Sonos, reconnect all of his old equipment back up and try to find some way to compensate him for his time effort and patience. Which means I’ve lost a lot of credibility with this customer as well as, and not to mention my wasted time/money I’ve invested in this job.

 

If I understand correctly you are using existing non-Sonos speakers with the Amp. These need more power/volume than the Amp gives at the normal Sonos settings?

Hi Rallye,

Yes, That’s correct.

If the above suggestion does not work, would replacing the surround speakers by Sonos by Sonos speakers work? That way possibly Trueplay would do its magic.

As I mentioned in my post, there are not any AC outlets up on the wall where the existing speakers are located. And, since the room is built on a cement slab, with painted Wainscot paneling ¾ up the wall, there is no way to run AC power to the spot on each wall where the existing speakers are.

 

Remember that Sonos is supposed to “just work” for consumers who should be able to set up a system themselves. Possibly avoid them making mistakes, Sonos provides limited settings and no advanced settings. This makes a Sonos set up less suitable for more professional set ups that might require more tweaking to work well.

Yes, I truly understand that but . . . . as I said, it just isn’t understandable that an almost $1000.00, stereo, 125 watt per channel amplifier, that can drive two or more large, 4 to 8 ohm floor standing speakers, to distortion levels, in some cases, cannot adequately power two small, dual cone, 5 inch speakers. I mean, that’s all this Amp is doing! Two, relatively little tiny speakers, being driven by a 250 watt amplifier! The speaker cones should be flying across the room! Yet, with the Arc Ultra set at a nominal volume setting for a Netflix action movie and the Surround Level setting set to maximum. The Surround Distance setting set to the furthest distance, I have to get up on a ladder and put my ear to the surround speakers to hear any sound.  

Why Sonos would put such a restriction, with no option for adjustment, on the output of this powerful amplifier, is beyond me.

I’m at a loss as what to do at this point. If the customer doesn’t accept this (which, in my opinion, he shouldn’t) I’m faced with telling him to pack it all up, send $5000.00 worth of equipment back to Sonos, reconnect all of his old equipment back up and try to find some way to compensate him for his time effort and patience. Which means I’ve lost a lot of credibility with this customer as well as, and not to mention my wasted time/money I’ve invested in this job.

 

Please read and respond to my reply above. Don’t overthink this. The solution is simple.

I agree with ​@GuitarSuperstar here, the two ‘TV Level’ & ‘Music Level’ slider controls in the Sonos App HT Surround Audio section, should easily resolve this issue for both TV/Music audio and switching the Music Playback option from ‘Ambient’ to ‘Full’ too would help for stereo music playback… if not, then there’s likely something wrong with the Amp/Speakers installation, including the Ad-hoc wireless, or wired network, link between the primary and secondary HT players.

The slider control mentioned earlier by ​@RelarmATAoldotcom seemed to make reference to the ‘Volume Limit’ slider control too which, if that is the case, would not resolve the mentioned issue at all.

Have you tried increasing the TV Level slider under the Surround Audio setting in the Sonos app?

Hi Guitar, Thanks for the suggestion but yes,  I referred to it in my post as the “level” control. This is one of the first things the Sonos tech told me to adjust. It is not really a “volume” control. As I understand it. A “level” control just controls the maximum volume output that the volume control is allowed to put out. Adjusting this caused only a very little effect on the volume of the surround speaker.

No, this is not correct. The Surround Audio TV Level control will “increase or decrease the volume of the surround speakers when watching TV”. This is how I balance the levels of my Era 300s with my Arc Ultra.

Read more here:

https://support.sonos.com/en-us/article/change-surround-audio-settings

HI

Hmmm interesting take on it. As I’ve understood it through the years, In the“classic” use of “level” control, you are controlling the volume output of an amplifier to a particular output, but not the Master Gain/Volume control of the amp. But Tomato/ tomotto. regardless of the definition or function of the Sonos “Level” control, adjusting it doesn’t help to increase the volume enough for the two existing surround speakers. 

What model TV does your customer have? What other devices are connected to the TV? What streaming apps does your customer use?

Samsung 65 inch TV, about 2/3 years old. A cable box on another HDMI output. Customer streaming Netflix, Amazon Prime, Fubu. I’ve tried a number of different action movies on the first two. I tried to go to my usual “go to” the “Saving Private Ryan” intro scene but it wasn’t available. Arc Ultra and Amp are connected to the network via Ethernet cable. 

By the way, thank you for engaging in this conversation.

 

No, this is not correct. The Surround Audio TV Level control will “increase or decrease the volume of the surround speakers when watching TV”. This is how I balance the levels of my Era 300s with my Arc Ultra.

Read more here:

https://support.sonos.com/en-us/article/change-surround-audio-settings

HI

Hmmm interesting take on it. As I’ve understood it through the years, In the“classic” use of “level” control, you are controlling the volume output of an amplifier to a particular output, but not the Master Gain/Volume control of the amp. But Tomato/ tomotto. regardless of the definition or function of the Sonos “Level” control, adjusting it doesn’t help to increase the volume enough for the two existing surround speakers. 

What model TV does your customer have? What other devices are connected to the TV? What streaming apps does your customer use?

Samsung 65 inch TV, about 2/3 years old. A cable box on another HDMI output. Customer streaming Netflix, Amazon Prime, Fubu. I’ve tried a number of different action movies on the first two. I tried to go to my usual “go to” the “Saving Private Ryan” intro scene but it wasn’t available. Arc Ultra and Amp are connected to the network via Ethernet cable. 

By the way, thank you for engaging in this conversation.

 

Set the TV to these settings (if available):

HDMI-eARC Mode: Auto
Digital Output Audio Format: Pass-Through

Then test the film The Tomorrow War on Prime Video. Look on the Now Playing screen in the Sonos app to confirm that it is playing in either Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 or Dolby Atmos. If so, you should clearly be able to hear surround audio from the surround speakers. Now adjust the TV Level slider under the Surround Audio settings in the Sonos app to a volume that is balanced with the Arc Ultra. If you can’t hear any difference, there is something wrong with your setup.

I agree with ​@GuitarSuperstar here, the two ‘TV Level’ & ‘Music Level’ slider controls in the Sonos App HT Surround Audio section, should easily resolve this issue for both TV/Music audio and switching the Music Playback option from ‘Ambient’ to ‘Full’ too would help for stereo music playback… if not, then there’s likely something wrong with the Amp/Speakers installation, including the Ad-hoc wireless, or wired network, link between the primary and secondary HT players.

The slider control mentioned earlier by ​@RelarmATAoldotcom seemed to make reference to the ‘Volume Limit’ slider control too which, if that is the case, would not resolve the mentioned issue at all.

I have tried the “Ambient/Full” option for the surround speakers and when playing music from Sonos Radio, the audio coming from the two surround speakers is much louder and in proportion to the output of the Arc Ultra. But neither the “Ambient/Full” option makes any difference when using speakers in the surround mode.

I have tried both wired and wireless connection to the network. I guessing/hoping that most every option was tried after me spending many hours on the telephone with Sonos tech support.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

I agree with ​@GuitarSuperstar here, the two ‘TV Level’ & ‘Music Level’ slider controls in the Sonos App HT Surround Audio section, should easily resolve this issue for both TV/Music audio and switching the Music Playback option from ‘Ambient’ to ‘Full’ too would help for stereo music playback… if not, then there’s likely something wrong with the Amp/Speakers installation, including the Ad-hoc wireless, or wired network, link between the primary and secondary HT players.

The slider control mentioned earlier by ​@RelarmATAoldotcom seemed to make reference to the ‘Volume Limit’ slider control too which, if that is the case, would not resolve the mentioned issue at all.

I have tried the “Ambient/Full” option for the surround speakers and when playing music from Sonos Radio, the audio coming from the two surround speakers is much louder and in proportion to the output of the Arc Ultra. But neither the “Ambient/Full” option makes any difference when using speakers in the surround mode.

I have tried both wired and wireless connection to the network. I guessing/hoping that most every option was tried after me spending many hours on the telephone with Sonos tech support.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

The Ambient/Full setting has no affect on TV audio. Just adjust the TV Level slider under Surround Audio while playing a 5.1 or Dolby Atmos audio source.

I agree with ​@GuitarSuperstar here, the two ‘TV Level’ & ‘Music Level’ slider controls in the Sonos App HT Surround Audio section, should easily resolve this issue for both TV/Music audio and switching the Music Playback option from ‘Ambient’ to ‘Full’ too would help for stereo music playback… if not, then there’s likely something wrong with the Amp/Speakers installation, including the Ad-hoc wireless, or wired network, link between the primary and secondary HT players.

The slider control mentioned earlier by ​@RelarmATAoldotcom seemed to make reference to the ‘Volume Limit’ slider control too which, if that is the case, would not resolve the mentioned issue at all.

I have tried the “Ambient/Full” option for the surround speakers and when playing music from Sonos Radio, the audio coming from the two surround speakers is much louder and in proportion to the output of the Arc Ultra. But neither the “Ambient/Full” option makes any difference when using speakers in the surround mode.

I have tried both wired and wireless connection to the network. I guessing/hoping that most every option was tried after me spending many hours on the telephone with Sonos tech support.

Thank you for your thoughts.

The Ambient/Full modes apply to stereo ‘music’ audio only - it is ignored for Atmos music playback and has no bearing on any type of TV audio. As an installer, I assume you know these things already?

Is the Arc Ultra and Amp wired back to the router, or the same network switch? Did you disable the WiFi Adapters? Also is the Amp in the same physical room as the Arc Ultra, or is it located elsewhere - How far away etc? I’m just wondering if they needed to be wired?

edit: ​@GuitarSuperstar types faster than me.😀

No, this is not correct. The Surround Audio TV Level control will “increase or decrease the volume of the surround speakers when watching TV”. This is how I balance the levels of my Era 300s with my Arc Ultra.

Read more here:

https://support.sonos.com/en-us/article/change-surround-audio-settings

HI

Hmmm interesting take on it. As I’ve understood it through the years, In the“classic” use of “level” control, you are controlling the volume output of an amplifier to a particular output, but not the Master Gain/Volume control of the amp. But Tomato/ tomotto. regardless of the definition or function of the Sonos “Level” control, adjusting it doesn’t help to increase the volume enough for the two existing surround speakers. 

What model TV does your customer have? What other devices are connected to the TV? What streaming apps does your customer use?

Samsung 65 inch TV, about 2/3 years old. A cable box on another HDMI output. Customer streaming Netflix, Amazon Prime, Fubu. I’ve tried a number of different action movies on the first two. I tried to go to my usual “go to” the “Saving Private Ryan” intro scene but it wasn’t available. Arc Ultra and Amp are connected to the network via Ethernet cable. 

By the way, thank you for engaging in this conversation.

 

Set the TV to these settings (if available):

HDMI-eARC Mode: Auto
Digital Output Audio Format: Pass-Through

Then test the film The Tomorrow War on Prime Video. Look on the Now Playing screen in the Sonos app to confirm that it is playing in either Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 or Dolby Atmos. If so, you should clearly be able to hear surround audio from the surround speakers. Now adjust the TV Level slider under the Surround Audio settings in the Sonos app to a volume that is balanced with the Arc Ultra. If you can’t hear any difference, there is something wrong with your setup.

Ok, that sounds interesting. I won’t be back there until Monday but I’ll surely give that a try. I know the Arc Ultra is on the ARC-e HDMI output and the TV is set to ARC. I don’t remember if there is an “Auto” setting or “pass through option. I don’t thinks but .. . .

Strangely enough, engaging in this conversation with everyone, something does occur to me. I’ve tried different settings, I tried a second Amp. With WiFi. With Ethernet. Different combinations of settings in the Sonos app working with tech support. The one thing in this whole menagerie I did not eliminate is the speakers themselves. I’ve used a Vom to check the continuity of the speakers. Reading about 7 ohms. I have a small audio signal tracer and have generated a sound from the speakers. But Monday, I’m going to bring another set of small speakers with me. Hook them directly to the Amp and see what happens. I don’t know what could be different about them but I couldn’t find any info about them on line. They’re just as old as the original system about 25/30 years. There’s no label on them just the name Pinnacle. Not surprised that there’s nothing like them on line after all these years.  I should have considered this all along, in spite of the fact that the speakers were working well with the old receiver. I’ll let you-all know what happens. Thanks for stimulating the pot !

I agree with ​@GuitarSuperstar here, the two ‘TV Level’ & ‘Music Level’ slider controls in the Sonos App HT Surround Audio section, should easily resolve this issue for both TV/Music audio and switching the Music Playback option from ‘Ambient’ to ‘Full’ too would help for stereo music playback… if not, then there’s likely something wrong with the Amp/Speakers installation, including the Ad-hoc wireless, or wired network, link between the primary and secondary HT players.

The slider control mentioned earlier by ​@RelarmATAoldotcom seemed to make reference to the ‘Volume Limit’ slider control too which, if that is the case, would not resolve the mentioned issue at all.

I have tried the “Ambient/Full” option for the surround speakers and when playing music from Sonos Radio, the audio coming from the two surround speakers is much louder and in proportion to the output of the Arc Ultra. But neither the “Ambient/Full” option makes any difference when using speakers in the surround mode.

I have tried both wired and wireless connection to the network. I guessing/hoping that most every option was tried after me spending many hours on the telephone with Sonos tech support.

Thank you for your thoughts.

The Ambient/Full modes apply to stereo ‘music’ audio only - it is ignored for Atmos music playback and has no bearing on any type of TV audio. As an installer, I assume you know these things already?

Yep, I know that.

 

Is the Arc Ultra and Amp wired back to the router, or the same network switch? Did you disable the WiFi Adapters? Also is the Amp in the same physical room as the Arc Ultra, or is it located elsewhere - How far away etc? I’m just wondering if they needed to be wired?

Both wired back to the same network switch. Tried both enabled and disabled WiFi Adapters. Each using Ethernet or WiFi. Every combination.

The Amp is on a shelf a couple of feet below the Arc Ultra which is sitting in front of the TV on top of the cabinet.

Check my other post. Going to try other speakers on Monday. How could I not consider that before?    GaaaAAHHHH !

edit: ​@GuitarSuperstar types faster than me.😀

 

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