The question of all questions, to which I can never find an answer, is this: what's the best material to "reflect" the sound of the Sonos side channels?
- Curtains? (I don't think so, because I know they act as sound-absorbing materials.)
- Glass? (Again, I'm almost certain that glass isn't a good "reflector.")
- Wood? Plywood? MDF?
So, how can I "treat" the glass door to optimally reflect the Sonos side channels?
Glass is a reflector of sound because it is hard. Try reading some articles on building materials used in studios and their impact on sound reflection and apply the reverse logic (studios tend to try and minimise reflections).
https://acousticsfirst.info/2022/03/28/when-it-comes-to-glass-dont-glaze-over-acoustics/
Don’t overthink it. Can you even tell the difference in sound if the door is open or shut?
Grazie ragazzi per la vostra gentile risposta.
Rispondendo al Sig. T.: Non l'ho ancora provato (sto ristrutturando dopo alcuni piccoli lavori), ma dovrò sicuramente chiudere la porta perché ha una sezione in vetro, quindi la luce sarebbe visibile dal corridoio. Per questo motivo, sto cercando di capire che tipo di materiale usare per la porta chiusa, che ha una sezione in vetro piuttosto grande al centro.
Ad oggi, non sono riuscito a trovare la risposta. Sembra che qualcosa stia disturbando il sistema di riflessione del suono Sonos, che deve "riflettere" correttamente senza smorzamenti, assorbimenti e simili. È surreale.
I'm replying to Gaham: from what you write ("glass reflects sound because it's hard"), then I should leave the free glass as it is... If I understand correctly... This is exactly what we Sonos users need: for the side channels to be able to reflect the audio laterally and then return it to the listener in the best possible way...
The question in a home environment isn't reflect or don't reflect, trying to eliminate all reflections, as in a studio is usually going to be large, ugly and expensive, aside from not being what you want.
In a home usually nothing needs done past the basics for getting the room to a midpoint between too live and too dead. You could add sound absorption to specific problems:
The glass door is a good example, I have an 8 foot one here and aside from contributing to the too live issue it is prone to vibrations at high playback volume. Managing the reflections and vibrations has made a nice improvement to the room's sound that most folks can hear when it is demonstrated. A medium-weight foam-backed thermal curtain turned out to be very close to perfect. Experiments with materials ranging from bedsheets to thick blankets helped find the sweet spot.
Sound absorbing panels can work for other flat surfaces, getting something both attractive and functional is usually less than fun and getting the right one can be a challenge. Both size and absorption levels / frequencies are critical issues.
Unless you are actually hearing something bad, not just being told you have an issue, you likely don't have an issue.
Thank you so much for your time, Stanley. I often follow your replies when I read something on the forum :-)
But look, the main problem I want to solve (and I still haven't figured out how) is this: I absolutely have to close the door on the right wall, and that door has a large glass panel.
Glass is known to be a poor reflector for audio, and considering Sonos uses a sound reflection system, I need to find a solution to cover the glass (sound-absorbing panels wouldn't work because they would absorb the audio, whereas Sonos needs to reflect it, bounce it back, and return it to the listener).
@Ignazio I would suggest taking the advice of @Stanley_4 and try some listening tests at different volume levels, in different positions, with the glass door open and closed and see what differences you can hear. Listening with your eyes closed is highly recommended.
If you hear a problem that you can articulate then there may be a fix but at the moment it all seems a bit hypothetical.
The irony of mixing music is that most of it is done in a “perfect” environment so that music can be heard in an imperfect one.
I think that you may be suffering from an eyes and assumptions first ears second issue and that is definitely the wrong order. To quote Joe Meek “if it sounds right, it is right”, with my own addition of, even if that is not how the mixing engineer intended it.
Glass audio properties:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=glass+audio+reflectivity&ia=web
I can't agree with "Glass is known to be a poor reflector for audio" that is a major oversimplification of the issue.
If you want to reflect more sound and more balanced across the audio frequencies a simple sheet of wallboard/Gypsum board, or a wood product on rollers so it can be easily moved will do that. Likely solving a problem you do not have.
Back to my basic question: What audio problem are you hearing?
Thanks! I'm not having any audio issues right now, as I'm working on it. However, I've realized I'll have to close the door, and the problem is I'll definitely need to cover the glass. But as you say, it might not necessarily cause audio issues, but I definitely have a light problem from outside, which is also why I need to cover the glass.
I was wondering what the best solution would be to reflect the audio well: curtains, wood, plywood, MDF, etc.
Thanks again, so much.
Glass is a reflective surface. The difference in sound for high and mid frequencies vs a wall is minimal at best. Low frequencies can cause loose glass to vibrate if you are heavy in low end. Overall the averages person isn’t going to be that sensitive to sound vs a wall.
Regarding Dolby Atmos side reflections ( which I assume involves an Arc series) the critical question regardless of Glass or a wall is the distance from the sides of the Arc. If the reflective surface is over 8 ft away there will be diminishing returns regardless. I wouldn’t over think the concept of reflective surfaces unless you can definitely determine a degradation between one surface vs the other.
Glass is a reflective surface. The difference in sound for high and mid frequencies vs a wall is minimal at best. Low frequencies can cause loose glass to vibrate if you are heavy in low end. Overall the averages person isn’t going to be that sensitive to sound vs a wall.
Regarding Dolby Atmos side reflections ( which I assume involves an Arc series) the critical question regardless of Glass or a wall is the distance from the sides of the Arc. If the reflective surface is over 8 ft away there will be diminishing returns regardless. I wouldn’t over think the concept of reflective surfaces unless you can definitely determine a degradation between one surface vs the other.
Thank you so much, too! Really kind!
The distance between the ARC and the walls is about 168cm on both sides.
Regarding the glass issue: OK, even if it doesn't cause bass issues, where it would cause the glass to reverberate (I'll try that when I finish the work), my question is what to use to cover the glass, because I also have the problem of light coming from the hallway into the room where I have the home theater.
So even if the glass might not cause audio issues (I'll let you know later), the problem remains of covering the light, and therefore what to use to cover the glass. Perhaps a curtain, plywood, MDF, or something else?
If it's light and not sound that is the primary issue then it is more a question of how much light do you want to exclude. I think dampening of sound is secondary.
Curtains will solve the light problem and dampening can be controlled by the weight of the material and distance from the glass.
For listening tests you could use a sheet over the door to assess the with and without curtains effect and make a more informed decision.
I have a large patio door with curtains in a room and honestly the difference between curtains open and closed is marginal.
Covering the glass will as I've said help manage its problematic accoustical properties.
The link I provided has several good introductory level articles that will give you much more correct information than you are currently working from. I've been reading several of them for entertainment, been too long since I paid much attention to glass.
A curtain is almost surely going to be your best solution, how thick and what material would be the question, with the constraint of blocking/passing your desired amount of light. As suggested dig out the spare bedding and experiment.
You didn't give much room information, which specific Sonos speaker and which driver(s) in it is causing the reflection concerns? How large is the glass area as a percentage of your walls and in square feet/meters? Where is it placed in relation to the problematic driver?
Also do not get wrapped around the reflection issue, many foolish folks are pushing that for reasons I can't understand. That is only one component of room accoustics and a bit far down the list in importance once any major audible issues are resolved.
If it's light and not sound that is the primary issue then it is more a question of how much light do you want to exclude. I think dampening of sound is secondary.
Curtains will solve the light problem and dampening can be controlled by the weight of the material and distance from the glass.
For listening tests you could use a sheet over the door to assess the with and without curtains effect and make a more informed decision.
I have a large patio door with curtains in a room and honestly the difference between curtains open and closed is marginal.
Oh, okay, so could I put a light blackout curtain over the door? They advised me to leave it outside because, with the Sonos system reflecting sound there, it might not work well because the curtain would absorb it... Otherwise, I would have solved the problem a few days ago...
Covering the glass will as I've said help manage its problematic accoustical properties.
The link I provided has several good introductory level articles that will give you much more correct information than you are currently working from. I've been reading several of them for entertainment, been too long since I paid much attention to glass.
A curtain is almost surely going to be your best solution, how thick and what material would be the question, with the constraint of blocking/passing your desired amount of light. As suggested dig out the spare bedding and experiment.
You didn't give much room information, which specific Sonos speaker and which driver(s) in it is causing the reflection concerns? How large is the glass area as a percentage of your walls and in square feet/meters? Where is it placed in relation to the problematic driver?
Also do not get wrapped around the reflection issue, many foolish folks are pushing that for reasons I can't understand. That is only one component of room accoustics and a bit far down the list in importance once any major audible issues are resolved.
Thank you. Okay, I'll try a lightweight curtain and let you know.
Can you recommend the right curtain material so it's not too "invasive"? Thanks.
Honestly I would want the curtains to look good and that is a personal choice.
As @Stanley_4 says don’t get caught up on what people say about reflections because audiophiles are like wine experts they all have lots of opinions but most of it is not audible.
My best guess, and please read this carefully, is that when you have a curtain in place the sound will be “warmer” not because of the reflections but because the curtains will make the room “cosier” and that will have a psychological effect on how you hear things.
Much of what we listen to relies on illusion and our ears and brain work with the other senses to impact how and what we think we hear.
I used to obsess about the perfect listening position, now I just enjoy listening and the fun of hearing things a bit differently because of where I chose to sit or the room that I am in.
Gaham, our posts keep crossing but I think we are saying pretty much the same thing.
Our patio door is large, and a cheap poorly constructed thing, so it is far more prone to audio issues than a quality door. Thin, double pane, both panes the same thickness and set in an iffy aluminum frame that provides little support or vibration dampening.
Our room layout is a large L shape with a notch in the inside of the center corner for the TV and audio gear. The right edge of the notch is centered on, and facing the door. My Sub sits in the notch where it sounds quite good and provides even response BUT it is in the worst possible alignment to the door and even mid-level playback causes audible resonance. Crank it up to party levels and you can hear the glass vibrations at its resonant point over the music if you are close to it. Really loud, like my pre-Sonos Infinity woofer calibration tool uses, and I worried it would break.
The foam-backed thermal curtain makes a very noticeable difference at anything above background listening levels, anything that excites the resonance.
Honestly I would want the curtains to look good and that is a personal choice.
As @Stanley_4 says don’t get caught up on what people say about reflections because audiophiles are like wine experts they all have lots of opinions but most of it is not audible.
My best guess, and please read this carefully, is that when you have a curtain in place the sound will be “warmer” not because of the reflections but because the curtains will make the room “cosier” and that will have a psychological effect on how you hear things.
Much of what we listen to relies on illusion and our ears and brain work with the other senses to impact how and what we think we hear.
I used to obsess about the perfect listening position, now I just enjoy listening and the fun of hearing things a bit differently because of where I chose to sit or the room that I am in.
Sure, sure, I understand...
But look, I was thinking mainly about the technical aspect of how Sonos reflects sound off the walls: I thought that, since the way it works with external channels is precisely to use the "bounce" from the walls (I'm referring especially to the ARC's side channels), I had doubts about the curtains because I thought: "If it has to bounce off the walls, but I put up a curtain that absorbs it anyway... then somehow I'll neutralize the Sonos system..."
No way anyone can recommend an optimal curtain for you, you need to test your exact situation and them pick a curtain that matched the best sounding test material.
Mine are similar to this. Experiment and see what YOU need.
https://www.amazon.com/Skyscape-Darkening-Curtains-Filtering-Foam-Backed/dp/B0FMXRD2N4/ref=sr_1_53
You can pick from several light blocking levels, that would likely impact sound absorbtion too.
No way anyone can recommend an optimal curtain for you, you need to test your exact situation and them pick a curtain that matched the best sounding test material.
Mine are similar to this. Experiment and see what YOU need.
https://www.amazon.com/Skyscape-Darkening-Curtains-Filtering-Foam-Backed/dp/B0FMXRD2N4/ref=sr_1_53
You can pick from several light blocking levels, that would likely impact sound absorbtion too.
"You can choose between different levels of light blockage, which would probably also affect the sound absorption."
So, this sentence really piques my interest, and you've nailed my big question: since I really want to avoid compromising the sound absorption, what's your advice for preventing this from happening? Does it depend on the color, size, material, and thickness of the curtain?
Thank you so much!
Sure, sure, I understand...
But look, I was thinking mainly about the technical aspect of how Sonos reflects sound off the walls: I thought that, since the way it works with external channels is precisely to use the "bounce" from the walls (I'm referring especially to the ARC's side channels), I had doubts about the curtains because I thought: "If it has to bounce off the walls, but I put up a curtain that absorbs it anyway... then somehow I'll neutralize the Sonos system..."
OK, the Arc side driver is the problem.
How far is it from the problem door?
What percentage of the reflecting wall is the door? Or better a rough drawing.
My basic issue in making useful suggestions for your particular situation is understanding what you are hearing as the problem, then having a good idea of just how bad it sounds to you.
? Does it depend on the color, size, material, and thickness of the curtain?
Thank you so much!
Much more than that, although color isn't a factor, distance from the problematic driver, and percentage of the reflecting wall that will be curtain are both quite important.
Material, not just the front fabric that you see but the liner, thermal layer and light blocking layer all are important.
You are not looking at buying a can of beans from the corner store here, there you can just grab a can the size you want with a picture of the kind of beans you want on it. This is a complex problem that demands either many years of experience as a professional sound treatment engineer (not the big box store guy that was selling appliances last week or some forum expert) or taking the time to learn the basics and the experiment to see what works for yourself.
I know the basics and can look up stuff like glass resonance and probably 30 other factors, but I'd never to design a room on paper, build it and be confident I had it close to perfect. I can usually help folks work towards solutions to problems they can hear and describe.
Unfortunately, I use Google Translate to help me, so some sentences seem repetitive or unclear. I apologize for that.
Let's do this: I'll try to answer more directly, point by point:
1. Yes, the problem I'm facing is the ARC-side driver, because as you know, it works by "bouncing" sound off the wall.
2. The distance from the glass door is about 168 cm.
3. I need to darken that glass, so I was thinking about a curtain, but I was stumped by the idea that the curtain itself could block/absorb the "reflective" effect of the ARC-side driver.
4. I'm currently working on this room, so I can't say if I'll have any audio issues, but since I'm working, I wanted to figure out how to darken that glass door.
5. My preferred solution was a curtain, but I was considering a wood panel, MDF, plywood, etc., in case I thought the curtain might cause absorption issues rather than allowing the ARC-side driver to reflect properly.
@Ignazio it is worth keeping in mind that there are a couple of reasons that Sonos don’t publish too much detail on what an ideal environment is.
The first is that it would kill sales as no one would have the right room 
The second, and more important, is that as a consumer product it is designed to sound as good as possible in as many situations as possible. Trueplay will probably improve things a little because it seems to have access to more tweaking options than the UI of the App exposes. But generally, Sonos speakers sound good out of the box wherever you put them as long as you follow the basic rules.
The Arc has some clever things going on under the covers and sound is a weird phenomenon. I often try to focus on the bass in rooms where I have a Sub to convince myself the bass is coming from the Sub and not somewhere else and even the old Play:1s I use for surrounds in our TV Room fool me into thinking someone or something is outside the window behind me.
Take a couple of days, listen to what you are hearing, see what is missing (or not) and post back here with the results. I’m sure that, like me, @Stanley_4 would be happy to help once some more detail is there to work with.
