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Arc Ultra and Era 100’s 

 

Anyone else have this setup and noticing that the Era 100’s as rears are doing less work with the Arc Ultra when compared to the standard Arc? I’m barely noticing any audio coming from the rears even with the surround volume turned up to maximum.  I swapped my original Arc back with the Era 100 surrounds and tested the same Atmos movies on the Arc and the Arc Ultra, and there is a significant difference/reduction in the signals being sent to the Era 100’s in the rear channels with the Arc Ultra.  Increasing the “TV Level” setting for Surround Audio in the Sonos app increases the front surround volume coming from the Arc Ultra but the signals coming out of the ERA 100 rears are almost non existent. 
 

Is this behavior the result of how the Arc Ultra processes surround channels, and should be considered normal operation?

I have a new Arc Ultra with Sub 4 and will get the Era 100’s once I know this issue with surrounds has been resolved and working satisfactorily for most. Although, I do wish Sonos would make dedicated surrounds like an Era 100 with an up-firing speaker(Era 200? 😉 where all drivers are utilised.

I’m choosing the Era 100’s over the 300’s, not due to price but because I like the size and I suspect the 100’s are more forgiving in a room that is not proportional while the Era 300’s is less forgiving. My room is open on one side and half open in the rear i.e. the walls are not proportional so I’m assuming virtualised sound would sound better in this scenario. Is my assumption correct?


Yeah i hear you. i have both and i’ll try 300’s as surround (when i am back home, out of uk atm) but they are larger. a 100 type body with upfiring driver would have been perfect for me. 

having said that, i am quite curious about 300’s. I visited a friend of mine who has samsung q990d and i have to say sound bubble is great but… surround speakers are not heavy or significant. it’d be interesting to see what 300’s will bring to my ht system rather than 100’s. I have a beam gen 2 and i read so many people saying it’ll overwhelm my beam but we’ll see. i’ll report


[...]

Your post is not (fully) relevant to the topic; surround sound issue caused by Sonos firmware. Please stay on topic so this thread will not become a chat about Ultra + surrounds in general. Ask your question in the last part of your post in the right thread.


[...]

Your post is not (fully) relevant to the topic; surround sound issue caused by Sonos firmware. Please stay on topic so this thread will not become a chat about Ultra + surrounds in general. Ask your question in the last part of your post in the right thread.

You might want to avoid discouraging Posts that bring “color and context” as to why the Arc Ultra Surround (5.1) issues are important to Customers in the first place.  Do you think redirecting a Customer’s Post encourages participation or perhaps tends to silence folks?  Hopefully Forum Moderators can work to ensure when risky extra context needs to be called out as “not fully relevant”.  The specific Post you call out indicates they recently purchased an Arc Ultra and are directly watching this Tread to decide when the time is right to add Surround Era 100s to their System Configuration.  What could be more “on point”?  


[...]

Your post is not (fully) relevant to the topic; surround sound issue caused by Sonos firmware. Please stay on topic so this thread will not become a chat about Ultra + surrounds in general. Ask your question in the last part of your post in the right thread.

You might want to avoid discouraging Posts that bring “color and context” as to why the Arc Ultra Surround (5.1) issues are important to Customers in the first place.  Do you think redirecting a Customer’s Post encourages participation or perhaps tends to silence folks?  Hopefully Forum Moderators can work to ensure when risky extra context needs to be called out as “not fully relevant”.  The specific Post you call out indicates they recently purchased an Arc Ultra and are directly watching this Tread to decide when the time is right to add Surround Era 100s to their System Configuration.  What could be more “on point”?  

In the part I refer to, he asks advice for making a purchase choice for his specific room. There are dedicated threads to discuss this, while this thread is clearly about the surround issues causes by firmware. Let’s focus on testing and reporting here. I don't want to ‘silence’ anyone, just asking to post in the right thread. Sonos will still know about it.


So I have an Arc Ultra that just arrived yesterday. It’s replaced a Beam Gen 2 and has two One SLs paired to it along with a Sub Gen 3. 
 

I found this thread after ordering the Ultra and before its arrival and was worried, so I’ve been testing it a lot over the last day. 
 

On my side, I don’t hear an issue. I’m impressed by the Arc Ultra and Atmos sounds great, as well as some 5.1 tracks I specifically tested. The surrounds on the 5.1 seemed just as full and loud as when it was paired to the Beam. 
 

Am I missing something? It is only a specific type of 5.1 mix (like DTS versus Dolby)?


So I have an Arc Ultra that just arrived yesterday. It’s replaced a Beam Gen 2 and has two One SLs paired to it along with a Sub Gen 3. 
 

On my side, I don’t hear an issue. I’m impressed by the Arc Ultra and Atmos sounds great, as well as some 5.1 tracks I specifically tested. The surrounds on the 5.1 seemed just as full and loud as when it was paired to the Beam. 
 

Am I missing something? It is only a specific type of 5.1 mix (like DTS versus Dolby)?

Most of us have Era 100 rear speakers, but a few people said that the issue exist with some other speakers also. But I‘m not 100% sure if it‘s true or an other issue.

I had before a Beam Gen 2 and I heard the difference immediately with 5.1 content. It‘s a gigantic difference. If Sonos will not fix this issue, I will immediately install my old Beam Gen 2 (or buy other rears).

This issue exist with every 5.1 content (DTS, Dolby…) Could you test it with this official Dolby Digital Plus test files (channel ID 5.1)? Dolby 5.1 Testfiles

I would be happy for feedback. If everything works fine, the next option for me would be to downgrade my rear speakers :D

 


So I have an Arc Ultra that just arrived yesterday. It’s replaced a Beam Gen 2 and has two One SLs paired to it along with a Sub Gen 3. 
 

I found this thread after ordering the Ultra and before its arrival and was worried, so I’ve been testing it a lot over the last day. 
 

On my side, I don’t hear an issue. I’m impressed by the Arc Ultra and Atmos sounds great, as well as some 5.1 tracks I specifically tested. The surrounds on the 5.1 seemed just as full and loud as when it was paired to the Beam. 
 

Am I missing something? It is only a specific type of 5.1 mix (like DTS versus Dolby)?

The issue is, that the arc ultra is also playing the sound of the rears. This is only when you are playing 5.1 content. Atmos works fine.

Everyone I explained this issue is able to reproduce it (if they Are also using ARC Ultra with Rears)


hi does this problem only occur after advanced Trueplay tuning?

i only tried the quick tuning with an android phone, seems okay? but i was testing with the 7.1 test clips


hi does this problem only occur after advanced Trueplay tuning?

i only tried the quick tuning with an android phone, seems okay? but i was testing with the 7.1 test clips

Trueplay doesn’t change anything in this behaviour. You need to test 5.1 clips. 7.1 and Atmos are prefect and don’t have this issue.


So I have an Arc Ultra that just arrived yesterday. It’s replaced a Beam Gen 2 and has two One SLs paired to it along with a Sub Gen 3. 
 

On my side, I don’t hear an issue. I’m impressed by the Arc Ultra and Atmos sounds great, as well as some 5.1 tracks I specifically tested. The surrounds on the 5.1 seemed just as full and loud as when it was paired to the Beam. 
 

Am I missing something? It is only a specific type of 5.1 mix (like DTS versus Dolby)?

Most of us have Era 100 rear speakers, but a few people said that the issue exist with some other speakers also. But I‘m not 100% sure if it‘s true or an other issue.

I had before a Beam Gen 2 and I heard the difference immediately with 5.1 content. It‘s a gigantic difference. If Sonos will not fix this issue, I will immediately install my old Beam Gen 2 (or buy other rears).

This issue exist with every 5.1 content (DTS, Dolby…) Could you test it with this official Dolby Digital Plus test files (channel ID 5.1)? Dolby 5.1 Testfiles

I would be happy for feedback. If everything works fine, the next option for me would be to downgrade my rear speakers :D

 

I can confirm that for sure DTS 5.1 does not have this problem, at least for my system. I put in my 4K of The Dark Knight and watched for some scenes that had distinct rear channel activity. Multiple times I confirmed (by rewinding frequently, with my ear against the rears and then by the soundbar) that there are distinct rear channel sounds happening only on my One SLs and not at all from the Arc Ultra itself. 

I am not sure how to run the Dolby Digital Plus test files, but I see you linked to something so I’m sure I can figure it out! If I can get it to work, I’ll test it later tonight and post my results here. 
 

@Downsideup As I mentioned in my post, I specifically tested with 5.1 movies that don’t have Atmos. 


So I have an Arc Ultra that just arrived yesterday. It’s replaced a Beam Gen 2 and has two One SLs paired to it along with a Sub Gen 3. 
 

On my side, I don’t hear an issue. I’m impressed by the Arc Ultra and Atmos sounds great, as well as some 5.1 tracks I specifically tested. The surrounds on the 5.1 seemed just as full and loud as when it was paired to the Beam. 
 

Am I missing something? It is only a specific type of 5.1 mix (like DTS versus Dolby)?

Most of us have Era 100 rear speakers, but a few people said that the issue exist with some other speakers also. But I‘m not 100% sure if it‘s true or an other issue.

I had before a Beam Gen 2 and I heard the difference immediately with 5.1 content. It‘s a gigantic difference. If Sonos will not fix this issue, I will immediately install my old Beam Gen 2 (or buy other rears).

This issue exist with every 5.1 content (DTS, Dolby…) Could you test it with this official Dolby Digital Plus test files (channel ID 5.1)? Dolby 5.1 Testfiles

I would be happy for feedback. If everything works fine, the next option for me would be to downgrade my rear speakers :D

 

I can confirm that for sure DTS 5.1 does not have this problem, at least for my system. I put in my 4K of The Dark Knight and watched for some scenes that had distinct rear channel activity. Multiple times I confirmed (by rewinding frequently, with my ear against the rears and then by the soundbar) that there are distinct rear channel sounds happening only on my One SLs and not at all from the Arc Ultra itself. 

I am not sure how to run the Dolby Digital Plus test files, but I see you linked to something so I’m sure I can figure it out! If I can get it to work, I’ll test it later tonight and post my results here. 
 

@Downsideup As I mentioned in my post, I specifically tested with 5.1 movies that don’t have Atmos. 

The issue is with Era100 & Era 300


@Zorro88  A bit of an interesting update…

(As a reminder to anyone catching up, I have the Arc Ultra with One SLs as surrounds and a Sub Gen 3.)

I played some Dolby and DTS 5.1 test tracks on my TV.

I can unfortunately confirm that both the Dolby and DTS 5.1 official test tracks have the Ultra itself activate while the rear channels are playing, same as has been described earlier in this thread. It seems as though this issue happens across surround speakers, regardless of it being Era 300, Era 100, or Sonos One.

I’m truly not sure why I was able to identify distinct sounds on the surrounds that weren’t happening on the Ultra in The Dark Knight, but I’m willing to trust the official test tracks more than my subjective analysis. I’ll dive back in later tonight to test again with just my ears and some movie 5.1 tracks to see. I’ll update more later once I specifically test more.

@Corry P If possible to update us on sharing this issue with the team, that would be great! I think this is clearly not by design and must be a flaw -- if the logic is that the Ultra should “help” with 5.1 rear activation, why wouldn’t that happen with the same rear channels in 7.1 or Atmos? 

For me, this Ultra was a significant investment. Could you provide acknowledgment from your team (the engineering team or whoever else is responsible for rolling out the update to fix this, specifically) that this, in fact, is an error and will be fixed at some point? An estimated timeline for a fix would be even better, of course, but at the very least, acknowledgement that this is abnormal behavior and a fix will be/is being worked on would go a long way to assuaging me (and I imagine others who are dealing with this).

Thanks in advance and thanks for your responsiveness and support thus far!


Last quick update -- I tested my system with some 5.1 content again just now. I replayed the same scene at the start of The Dark Knight (specifically the one where it zooms in slowly on the Joker standing with his mask off while the truck pulls up). I can still only hear the truck pulling up on the left rear, not from the Arc Ultra, at least until it actually pulls up on screen and then it weirdly is mainly center/right.

I watched another 5.1 mix, this time on Max, and while I only spent a few mins, the rears sounded full and distinct. There was one sound that sounded clearly in the right rear, and I did hear it softly on the right side of Arc Ultra, but it didn’t sound bad per se.

Even if the 5.1 mixes have the Arc Ultra activate, so far, it hasn’t been negatively impacting my listening experience -- I still hear distinct sounds from the rears and they are fully present.


Even if the 5.1 mixes have the Arc Ultra activate, so far, it hasn’t been negatively impacting my listening experience -- I still hear distinct sounds from the rears and they are fully present.

Thanks a lot for your feedback with your Sonos One rears. Unfortnately I can‘t confirm the same with Era 100 rears. Yes, the rears are still playing some sound, but at the same time with the front. It even sounds louder there. The soundstage is moved a lot to the front with 5.1 content. It no longer feels like sitting in the middle of the sound stage, but at the very back.

Unfortunately, I sold my Sonos One a year ago and can no longer compare it with the Era 100. It seems that the 5.1 problem is less pronounced there.


Hi ​@Kinetic Koala 

I am currently working on an article - it will need approval from multiple engineering sources as well as PR, so will take some time, but a response to your feedback is coming.


Hi ​@Kinetic Koala 

I am currently working on an article - it will need approval from multiple engineering sources as well as PR, so will take some time, but a response to your feedback is coming.

Hi ​@Corry P 

Thanks again for your quick response(s) and work to address this. I can confirm after consuming more 5.1 content that it does detrimentally impact the experience (via some content more than others — gaming with my Xbox had worse separation with my Arc Ultra than with my Beam Gen 2). 

I will keep my eye out for the article addressing this! In the meantime — can you at least confirm that this has been acknowledged to either be a bug or something that needs to be fixed internally?

My concern is that the article will take quite a while to come out, pushing me out of the return window, and then the response ends up simply being trying to justify this as a feature, which again makes little sense since the Ultra doesn’t help with dedicated rear sounds in 7.1 or Atmos rear content. Right now, it honestly seems like a bug with the 9.1.4 virtualization of the Arc Ultra when playing 5.1 content, but that’s just my completely uninformed perspective 😄

So at the very least for right now, confirmation that this is internally viewed as something that needs to be improved would be appreciated. 


Yeah, my return window is closing in about 10 days. I really hope sonos doesn’t pull the “feature not a bug” card here. it is clearly wrong and I get a way better 5.1 experience with my beam.

 

The issue is with Era100 & Era 300

Also One’s.


Hi ​@Kinetic Koala 

At present, I cannot - the article is awaiting review by various teams; if I could do as you ask, it would not be waiting.

I do appreciate your concern. All I can really suggest if you are concerned about the timing and your refund window is that you return your purchase for a refund while you can - you can always re-entertain the idea of getting an Arc Ultra later (assuming you don’t spend the money, of course). We don’t want you to be unhappy with your purchase.

I hope this helps.


All I can really suggest if you are concerned about the timing and your refund window is that you return your purchase for a refund while you can - you can always re-entertain the idea of getting an Arc Ultra later

If someone bought the Arc Ultra with an upgrade coupon, would we be able to get the coupon back if we return the product? This was the reason why I didn’t send my Arc Ultra back in november. I was worried to lose my very rare 30% upgrade coupon.


Hi ​@Zorro88 

Yes. You would have to go through our sales department to do so, however, as the self-service Money Back Guarantee function on our website cannot do this for you.

I hope this helps.


Hi ​@Kinetic Koala 

At present, I cannot - the article is awaiting review by various teams; if I could do as you ask, it would not be waiting.

I do appreciate your concern. All I can really suggest if you are concerned about the timing and your refund window is that you return your purchase for a refund while you can - you can always re-entertain the idea of getting an Arc Ultra later (assuming you don’t spend the money, of course). We don’t want you to be unhappy with your purchase.

I hope this helps.

With all due respect, I’m going to push back a little bit on this. For one, I already sold my friend my Beam Gen 2 (which I fault myself for, I should have waited a few weeks longer I suppose), so if I were to return the Arc Ultra, I would be without a soundbar.

Anyway -- regarding your point that “if I could do as you ask, it would not be waiting.”

I respectfully disagree.

The article that you are kindly working on that will presumably provide a deeper explanation for the issue, a potential timeline for a fix, a more detailed solution, etc. still needs time to develop and publish. I understand that.

A quick acknowledgement that this behavior is acknowledged as a bug internally by your team does not mean that the above article is now unnecessary. They are different things.

This behavior, of the Arc Ultra playing rear audio from the soundbar itself in addition to the rears when outputting 5.1 content, is nonsensical. It does not occur with Atmos dedicated rear channels or 7.1. It does not occur with other Sonos soundbars, like the Arc and even Beam Gen 2, which support 5.1 output. This behavior is not only contrary to the internal logic of how the Arc Ultra handles rears across other formats, but also contrary to how other Sonos soundbar products handle 5.1. There is no logical reason why it should be happening (again, this is separate from virtualization for Atmos mixes, which activates multiple speakers to more precisely place sounds. With a 5.1 mix, a rear sound should only fire from the rear. Adding any “help” from the soundbar in the front only detracts form the experience).

With all that said, it should be not too complicated to meet with some internal teams and at least get the acknowledgement and approval to share with us that this is unintended behavior (and hopefully that a fix is in development, but even that isn’t necessary to share now!). The article detailing more about the how and the why and the potential solution and timeline can still come later.

Again, I do appreciate all you do. Your responses here and in other threads are valued and I’m sure it’s not easy juggling all this. I just want to gently push back regarding the assertion that it’s not possible to acknowledge it’s unintended behavior -- after all, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. You can share more about the duck and what your team will or will not do about it later. But we should still be able to agree it’s a duck. :)


Is there any way to extend the return window?

Maybe if you had an open case with Sonos Support?


Hi ​@Kinetic Koala 

I do get your point, but I am not going to discuss anything publicly that was mentioned in the meeting without prior approval.

@Stanley_4 has a point - if you have an open support case, you’ll be able to argue that you opened the case before your MBG period was up, thus being able to basically extend the period.

I hope this helps.


I almost can't believe that we won't find out for almost 3 months after product release whether the error will be fixed or not. The whole thing was so nerve-wracking that someone from Sonos recognized the problem after such a long time. In all of this, I ask myself: are there actually no more people at Sonos who test their latest products themselves at home? If they did, a fault like this would be noticed immediately. I feel like a beta tester at the moment.

I also reviewed the Arc Ultra almost a month ago in the Sonos online store and mentioned the 5.1 error in detail. Of course, I also mentioned the positive things in detail. The review was never published. I am very disappointed about this censorship.

At the moment there is hope again because of the upcoming statement. But because of the length of time it has taken, I am increasingly unsure that I will be disappointed in the end. Otherwise you could just say that our technicians will try to fix the problem and a more detailed statement will follow. Then everyone here would be happy. I'm more and more afraid that it will end up being an excuse and that everything is intentional, but they are constantly trying to improve the products...

At the moment I'm already looking at other home theater systems that work 100% reliably, outside of the Sonos world. Maybe I've just been trapped in this world for too long and it's time for something new.


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