+1
Lpcm sound is considerably quieter than Dolby Digital plus 5.1 or other modes, annoying
Is that normal or not?
Or maybe work in progress?
Is lpcm the best option for my setup , gaming on ps5?
Thanks everyone for helping in advance
Peace
Dawid
Best answer by Rowena B.
View original
+18
Hi
If apps on your PS5 are a lot quieter than your TV apps, perhaps you should be asking Sony for a fix?
The Arc is not going to think “he’s playing it from a PS5, I think I’ll be quieter than usual”. It plays the feed it’s given. As it plays the feed from the TV apps without issue, it’s working correctly.
If the PS5 is not responsible for the lowered volume, then your TV is.
I truly do understand the frustration you’re probably feeling, but in this case there is nothing that we can do. I recommend you stick to the TV’s apps, if the PS5 doesn’t have a setting that will fix the issue.
Hi
If apps on your PS5 are a lot quieter than your TV apps, perhaps you should be asking Sony for a fix?
The Arc is not going to think “he’s playing it from a PS5, I think I’ll be quieter than usual”. It plays the feed it’s given. As it plays the feed from the TV apps without issue, it’s working correctly.
If the PS5 is not responsible for the lowered volume, then your TV is.
I truly do understand the frustration you’re probably feeling, but in this case there is nothing that we can do. I recommend you stick to the TV’s apps, if the PS5 doesn’t have a setting that will fix the issue.
Maybe the issues do lie elsewhere but the sound comes from a Sonos speaker which is in the chain.
When we contact these large companies, its always 1st line support who treat you like an idiot and think its just an issue with your TV and go through all the bog standard stuff like resets and so on.
If a company like Sonos contacted Sony, they might take the issue more seriously.
i do understand that some issues do not lie with the Sonos but surely as a large company you could make an effort to work together to highlight an issue.
+18
Hi
I understand your point, but the issue may be due to the TV not being physically able to passthrough LPCM and so it encodes it to Dolby Digital (which may include volume adjustment or dynamic compression at either the compression or decompression stages), or it could just be due to a setting on the TV. Without any details (or diagnostics) it’s impossible to determine. In most cases we recommend getting in touch with our technical support team first, so we can confirm the issue or fix it, but if an Arc works with one source correctly then it works as it should and any other issues must be induced either at the source or the TV, assuming all codecs remain the same.
However, it’s generally customer contact volumes that drive a company to implement changes. Regardless of the level of skill/knowledge of a support agent, the details of the issue are recorded for data analysis and trends are flagged, so just getting in touch and explaining the issue should be enough for this to work. If Sony (just for example) came to us and reported a compatibility issue with a combination of our and their products, but not a single customer of ours had reported any such thing, I can’t see us considering it a priority. If it was a TV model yet to be released, then I’m sure we’d work together prior to the product launch, however.
Having said that, I will see what I can do to raise this issue internally for investigation.
Hi
I understand your point, but the issue may be due to the TV not being physically able to passthrough LPCM and so it encodes it to Dolby Digital (which may include volume adjustment or dynamic compression at either the compression or decompression stages), or it could just be due to a setting on the TV. Without any details (or diagnostics) it’s impossible to determine. In most cases we recommend getting in touch with our technical support team first, so we can confirm the issue or fix it, but if an Arc works with one source correctly then it works as it should and any other issues must be induced either at the source or the TV, assuming all codecs remain the same.
However, it’s generally customer contact volumes that drive a company to implement changes. Regardless of the level of skill/knowledge of a support agent, the details of the issue are recorded for data analysis and trends are flagged, so just getting in touch and explaining the issue should be enough for this to work. If Sony (just for example) came to us and reported a compatibility issue with a combination of our and their products, but not a single customer of ours had reported any such thing, I can’t see us considering it a priority. If it was a TV model yet to be released, then I’m sure we’d work together prior to the product launch, however.
Having said that, I will see what I can do to raise this issue internally for investigation.
Thanks, Also the other recent thread I posted similar about the LPCM 7.1 output issue on LG oleds, where all 5.1 audio is output as multichannel pcm 7.1, when the devices are connected direct to an LG oled and passthrough is set on the LG
Such as Xbox series x set to uncompressed 5.1 outputs as multichannel pcm 7.1
or
Apple 4k tv all DD 5.1 audio is output as multichannel pcm 7.1
Clearly an issue LGs side it seems, but I have got nowhere with them to get the issue raised and fixed, many others have same problem. Perhaps Sonos could nudge LG to investigate.
Not sure Sonos has a lot of clout with LG, to be honest. Sonos doesn’t purchase their TVs in large numbers, nor is there any revenue sharing between the two companies. As he suggested, it’s likely that individual voices such as yours carry as much, if not more weight, since you’re a paying customer, and a voice that may affect other purchasers.
That being said, I suspect Sonos does pass on some level of data to them. How much it is valued is anyone’s guess.
Hey, I just wanted to flag this since I have the luxury of owning both a PS5 and Xbox Series X, an Apple TV 4K, and a LG CX and Sony X900H. I've hooked up all items to Arc + Sub + SL Ones, and have tested Sony’s Atmos sound bar too.
It doesn’t matter which TV, or which console, but outputting to LPCM 5.1 shows up as Mutichannel PCM 7.1 in the Sonos app… and sounds noticeably softer/muted compared to Dolby bitstream.
But flip side, moving to Dolby bitstream on either device ends up resulting in some sort of audio delay. That delay seems like it’s more on the console makers; I don’t have this issue with Apple TV or either devices. And both TVs support eArc and have passthrough enabled. But Multichannel 7.1 and LPCM sound issues are clearly a Sonos issue.
It looks like the latest update has improved the 7.1 → 5.1 down-mixing issue, but the volume issue still remains.
I understand the idea that lpcm is just passed through to the dsp/amplifier without decoding, but there has to be something going on that is incorrect. I shouldn’t have to raise the volume 2x/2.5x on lpcm when compared to a dolby-encoded track. Almost to the point of the track clipping in order to output the same audible magnitude.
Hi
What are you basing your statement that LPCM will be quieter than Dolby Digital off of? If anything, LPCM is more likely to have greater depth/fullness/loudness, as it is a lossless format (Dolby Digital is lossy).
As I stated:
Differing content can often be mastered to different volume levels, and when a change in encoding is involved, this is even more likely as the sound track will be adjusted to best fit the parameters and abilities of the codec. Technically, however, LPCM isn’t a codec (it’s uncompressed) and is in fact how all digital equipment handles sound internally - at some point, regardless of any formats/codecs/channels being used, everything is converted to LPCM before being passed to the digital amplifiers inside all Sonos speakers/Amps. Included in the decoding process of Dolby Digital and Atmos to LPCM is a volume boost/range compression. As LPCM isn’t processed (decompressed) like a codec, there isn’t the same opportunity for this to happen. When LPCM is played, you get the closest to the original track possible - the data on the source is relayed directly to the amplifier after mixing.
You are correct - LPCM from the source will have greater depth (dynamic range), which is exactly why it sounds quieter - there’s less compression. This has nothing to do with algorithmic data compression, but auditory dynamic range compression instead. With less compression there is a greater range in volume level between something quiet and something loud. A cinema would not dream of compressing this range, but watching movies at home is a different matter. When there is no compression, you’ll need to turn up the volume to hear quiet vocals, and then explosions are really loud - something a cinema desires, rather than tries to avoid.
I did say “in general”. There’s no technicality that says LPCM is quieter compared to other formats - I’m just saying that it’s something you’re likely to perceive, as opposed to the opposite.
I am sorry for the delay in my response, but this doesn’t quite add up.
Perhaps for a lossy compression (Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital+) this would hold, but not for something that is losslessly compressed (Dolby TrueHD). Whether a Dolby TrueHD track is decoded at the Sonos level, at the receiver level (in a non-Sonos environment), or at a media player level, the auditory fidelity of the resulting LPCM should be 100% equivalent. The reason for a data-compressed codec like TrueHD is simply for saving disc space, but since it is lossless, the auditory dynamic range is not compressed. If Sonos is taking the liberty to add more volume boost/range compression in a Dolby TrueHD track, they are doing something beyond the intent of the codec and deocder that Dolby provides (and perhaps even the creator’s intent). Of note, this isn’t in reference to Atmos metadata. I understand that is lost in standard Dolby TrueHD → LPCM decoding. Simply talking about ear-level channels here.
tldr; Decoded Dolby TrueHD should sound 100% equivalent from a fidelity perspective, regardless of what device has done the decoding to LPCM. And right now, it does not. And it’s not close.
+18
Hi
tldr; Decoded Dolby TrueHD should sound 100% equivalent from a fidelity perspective, regardless of what device has done the decoding to LPCM. And right now, it does not. And it’s not close.
There is no reason for LPCM to sound equivalent to Dolby TrueHD - it doesn’t contain vertical channels, nor does it have Atmos 3D positioning data. What happens to those channels and that data depends entirely on which device decodes the stream to LPCM.
Hi
tldr; Decoded Dolby TrueHD should sound 100% equivalent from a fidelity perspective, regardless of what device has done the decoding to LPCM. And right now, it does not. And it’s not close.
There is no reason for LPCM to sound equivalent to Dolby TrueHD - it doesn’t contain vertical channels, nor does it have Atmos 3D positioning data. What happens to those channels and that data depends entirely on which device decodes the stream to LPCM.
I acknowledged this in my previous reply:
Of note, this isn’t in reference to Atmos metadata. I understand that is lost in standard Dolby TrueHD → LPCM decoding. Simply talking about ear-level channels here.
I am not considering the vertical/height channels, or the Dolby Atmos 3D object positioning. Simply the conversion of the (up-to) 7.1 ear-level channels. Dolby TrueHD existed as a codec long before Dolby Atmos was born, with the later being an extension on top of the former. Take for example the movie It's A Wonderful Life. It has a Dolby TrueHD 2.0 track.
There is countless literature online detailing how when decoded, Dolby TrueHD (and DTS-HD MA for that matter) should sound equivalent from an audio and fidelity perspective to LPCM. They exist simply for saving data (not dynamic range) space on media.
I cannot stress this enough: There should be no fidelity difference between decoding at the Sonos/receiver level and decoding at the Apple TV 4K (as an example, could be another Dolby-certified decoder) level for anything without atmospheric audio.
+18
Hi
I’m sorry - I don’t understand. Fidelity has nothing to do with volume, and we were discussing volume.
As mentioned above, I have already flagged this volume issue for internal investigation. If the comparative volume of LPCM vs Atmos is the problem you’re experiencing, I’ve already done all I can to help.
Hi
I’m sorry - I don’t understand. Fidelity has nothing to do with volume, and we were discussing volume.
As mentioned above, I have already flagged this volume issue for internal investigation. If the comparative volume of LPCM vs Atmos is the problem you’re experiencing, I’ve already done all I can to help.
Sorry for the confusion, and I do appreciate the help. It is just frustrating that we are coming up on 9 months (released November of 2020) of folks consistently reporting that LPCM volume is an issue, and the best we have is something recently flagged for review.
+18
Hi
I completely understand. Unfortunately, issues like this need to be confirmed and thoroughly tested with a variety of equipment before any action can be taken and those actions must wait their turn in the development process - which will be prioritised by the number of users affected. Given that a simple fix is to adjust the volume, and that this generally needs to be done with different media and sources anyway, it is possibly not considered to be of the highest priority.
Has anyone tried LPCM to the Arc from a source other than PS5. Is it still quiet? I’m trying to work out whether this is a PS5 thing or something inherent with LPCM into Arc. I’ve definitely noticed I need to turn up the volume to get the same surround effect I get from my LG CX TV apps where I can leave all the levels at 0 and it always sounds full and immersive enough for my room - Atmos, DD 5.1, whatever.
For gaming I’ve found changing the PS5 audio output setting to Dolby in settings gets great results for audio to the Arc. As games are all in 5.1 Dolby digital.
Has anyone tried LPCM to the Arc from a source other than PS5. Is it still quiet? I’m trying to work out whether this is a PS5 thing or something inherent with LPCM into Arc. I’ve definitely noticed I need to turn up the volume to get the same surround effect I get from my LG CX TV apps where I can leave all the levels at 0 and it sounds full and immersive enough for my room.
For gaming I’ve found changing the PS5 audio output setting to Dolby in settings gets great results for audio to the Arc. As games are all in 5.1 Dolby digital.
This is certainly not unique to the PS5. Happens with all LPCM audio, such as from the AppleTV 4K, Nvidia Shield decoding DTS → LPCM, etc.
Is there an update on this lpcm 7.1 issue?
The Sonos app reports lpcm 7.1 on my blu rays from the Panasonic ub820 (which also reports it is outputting lpcm 7.1). However there is clearly an issue with the arc+sub+surrounds beyond just volume (which I don’t find to be a major issue). There is something being lost in the surrounds and there also appears to be clipping of some sounds.
I tested the 1999 Mummy on 4K uhd with DTS converted to lpcm 7.1 and on iTunes in Dolby digital 5.1. The iTunes version at a similar volume level appeared to have more active surrounds. (Spoiler for the Mummy!) Additionally, in the scene where the ruins collapse into the sands near the end, there’s plenty of bass but horrible clipping sounds that are not present at all on the iTunes version. It’s immediately recognisable as something sounding “wrong” to even a layperson with no interest in any of this stuff, as people watching with me thought my speakers were bust!
All the LPCM 7.1 tracks that I’ve heard sound poor compared to Atmos or even DD5.1, and it’s not due to the volume. It all appears to be working but something is off.
Is there anyone who can test out the Mummy and confirm if this is reproduce-able on other setups?
Thanks!
Is there an update on this lpcm 7.1 issue?
The Sonos app reports lpcm 7.1 on my blu rays from the Panasonic ub820 (which also reports it is outputting lpcm 7.1). However there is clearly an issue with the arc+sub+surrounds beyond just volume (which I don’t find to be a major issue). There is something being lost in the surrounds and there also appears to be clipping of some sounds.
I tested the 1999 Mummy on 4K uhd with DTS converted to lpcm 7.1 and on iTunes in Dolby digital 5.1. The iTunes version at a similar volume level appeared to have more active surrounds. (Spoiler for the Mummy!) Additionally, in the scene where the ruins collapse into the sands near the end, there’s plenty of bass but horrible clipping sounds that are not present at all on the iTunes version. It’s immediately recognisable as something sounding “wrong” to even a layperson with no interest in any of this stuff, as people watching with me thought my speakers were bust!
All the LPCM 7.1 tracks that I’ve heard sound poor compared to Atmos or even DD5.1, and it’s not due to the volume. It all appears to be working but something is off.
Is there anyone who can test out the Mummy and confirm if this is reproduce-able on other setups?
Thanks!
This is what I have experienced as well, it is not just simply the volume. It is the fidelity of the audio … putting volume aside, the fidelity of a DTS-HD track should be the same regardless of where the decoding takes place (receiver, media player, etc.).
Two of the movies I have experienced it in were The Revenant and Arrival.
+1
my new xbox series x works perfectly with my setup ,all with dolby atmos , wish that work that way with ps5 too
Does anyone else also get a popping sound when switching inputs or content? Like going from Stereo PCM → LPCM? It seems to happen more with non-Dolby codecs.
+3
I tested Superman returns by choosing Dolby true HD and lpcm via the blu ray media, even though the xbox series up mixes everything to Dolby atmos the lpcm sounder a lot more louder that than the Dolby venrsion.
I tested Superman returns by choosing Dolby true HD and lpcm via the blu ray media, even though the xbox series up mixes everything to Dolby atmos the lpcm sounder a lot more louder that than the Dolby venrsion.
If the Xbox is upmixing the LPCM to Dolby Atmos, we can’t be sure of all the different compression/manipulation/enhancements that entails. It is no longer LPCM being fed into the Arc. What we are talking about is un-adultered LPCM.
LPCM should have the same fidelity as an encoded Dolby TrueHD or DTSHD-MA track (both lossless). Not just volume, but the quality should sound identical. And right now, it does not.
+2
Hi All.
Sonos currently only supports 5.1 multichannel LCPM, though we are currently working on supporting 7.1 - by downmixing to 5.1, not full 7.1 reproduction. So right now, 7.1 LPCM is not supported and your sources should be set to 5.1 LPCM, where possible, or Dolby Digital 5.1 (or DD+ for Atmos).
In time (I have no details to share as to when), 7.1 LPCM will be downmixed to 5.1.0 on the Arc.
Differing content can often be mastered to different volume levels, and when a change in encoding is involved, this is even more likely as the sound track will be adjusted to best fit the parameters and abilities of the codec. Technically, however, LPCM isn’t a codec (it’s uncompressed) and is in fact how all digital equipment handles sound internally - at some point, regardless of any formats/codecs/channels being used, everything is converted to LPCM before being passed to the digital amplifiers inside all Sonos speakers/Amps. Included in the decoding process of Dolby Digital and Atmos to LPCM is a volume boost/range compression. As LPCM isn’t processed (decompressed) like a codec, there isn’t the same opportunity for this to happen. When LPCM is played, you get the closest to the original track possible - the data on the source is relayed directly to the amplifier after mixing.
Therefore, varying volume levels are normal, or they may be an artifact of 7.1 currently being mishandled.
4 months on is there any update as to when this will be fixed? I am starting to get really annoyed with having to constantly change my ATV to send DD 5.1 for most shows (because LPCM just doesn’t sound right probably because it is 7.1 being mishandled), and LPCM (ATMOS) when I am watching an ATMOS film/show.
Surely we are close to this update?
+18
Hi
Nothing further to share at the moment, though some users have reported noticing an improvement in 7.1 LPCM handling since the last update.
+2
Are we talking weeks or months until this is finally resolved? I have been waiting patiently for months but may need to speak to your team to get some kind of refund if I can’t see light at the end of the tunnel.
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