Is the SUB really an inferior product?

This is a similar argument to what you will hear when you get into a Apple V/s Android argument. I am guessing that they all are major Android fans too? Maybe like tweaking and tuning a bit much, as opposed to the walled garden approach that Sonos and Apple take in their products.

I actually think the opposite is true. Above all, many audiophiles are gear snobs and, with that, goes brand snobbery.

It's not so much that most of them want to tinker, but more that they place personal value on high-end (and usually, expensive) brands as well as exotic specifications and technologies which are heavily marketed by the high-end brands ("magical" and "revolutionary" anyone?). They eschew less expensive brands and more mundane technologies which are basically as good or, in many cases, better.

Cheers,

Keith

The SUB does go down pretty low. If there's a valid criticism it's that it goes up too high.

A Sub in a traditional hifi setup is designed to complement quite high-end speakers which normally have a pretty good bass response themselves. The Sub is there to fill in the low end that the normal speakers cannot reach.

In a Sonos setup, you could be paring the SUB with anything from a Play:1 to a Connect:Amp connected to some high-end speakers. The nice thing is Sonos largely handles this automatically (at least within the Play:1/3/5 range) and adjusts the crossover accordingly.

But if you are using the SUB with Play:1's the crossover will be relatively high, much higher than it would be with many old-school hifi setups. The Play:1 is a fantastic speaker for it's size but it's not going to give you the same bass response as a high-end floor-standing speaker setup (and expecting it to is ridiculous). That's where the SUB comes in, as it provides a pretty seamless transition from where the Play:1 (or 3 or 5) starts to lose capability.

The downside of that is that, in such a setup, you will have a relatively high crossover point. in other words, the SUB will be producing some of the lower-midrange notes.

Why is this a downside? Because bass notes are pretty non-directional to human ears, and the lower they are the less directionality we can detect. This is why you can get away with a single sub in a stereo setup. In a situation where the SUB is playing notes that would conventionally be played by one of the stereo speakers, it is potentially an issue as these frequencies are more "positional". In some cases you might find you can hear sounds obviously coming from the SUB rather than being more vaguely placed in the room.

Having said that, to my ears the Play:1s plus SUB sound better than my old Kef Speaker/M&K Sub setup. And it also required almost zero tweaking compared to my old setup where I was always questioning whether I had the crossover set appropriately. IMO one of the benefits of the SUB is it seems to provide a matched, seamless crossover with Sonos speakers, which I could never achieve on my old hifi setup.

Cheers,

Keith

I have the 5.1 and playing music through it the Sub is very capable and worth adding imho.

Sonos makes a GREAT sub that can be easily hidden, no wires, and puts out decent, solid bass. Can you do better? Sure. Hell yes. But in the realm of audiophile there's diminishing returns. I've listened to $100k speakers that sounded astounding, but not $100k worth of astounding.

Sonos is like an Audi. Maybe it's not as razzle dazzle as a Bently, but it punches way above its weight class for the cost.

Best part of the Sonos sub? It's exterior housing doesn't rattle. I work in a studio with B&W and NHT gear, at high levels all those subwoofers made the floor resonate - even with spikes to isolate them.

The downside of that is that, in such a setup, you will have a relatively high crossover point. in other words, the SUB will be producing some of the lower-midrange notes.

Why is this a downside? Because bass notes are pretty non-directional to human ears, and the lower they are the less directionality we can detect. This is why you can get away with a single sub in a stereo setup. In a situation where the SUB is playing notes that would conventionally be played by one of the stereo speakers, it is potentially an issue as these frequencies are more "positional". In some cases you might find you can hear sounds obviously coming from the SUB rather than being more vaguely placed in the room.


Which is why notwithstanding what Sonos say about placing the Sub anywhere in the room, for music play best results with it are obtained when it is placed in the plane of the 1 pair, as close to the centre between them as possible. For TV applications, placement isn't very important, I suspect.

The Audi/Bentley comment is interesting: I'd would take an Audi for the Sonos price point equivalent very happily. The Bentley is to make a statement about who you are and the company you keep and less about driving pleasure.

I work in a studio with B&W and NHT gear, at high levels all those subwoofers made the floor resonate - even with spikes to isolate them.

Interesting that you mention NHT. A great speaker company, founded by Ken Kantor, who got his advanced degree in psychoacoustics, IIRC, from MIT. A real engineer who knew audio design inside and out, and taught engineering at MIT, as well.

He used to participate in an audiophile forum i was on; the same know-nothing types mentioned by the OP would go against him all the time. They are relentless, most of them with sales backgrounds, with zero technical knowledge.

Ken used to say there was absolutely no technical reason that any home speaker should sell for more than about $2K per pair, but the nuts would go on and on about how much "better" absurdly overpriced speakers from the likes of Wilson Audio sounded. Nonsense. Ken finally stopped participating, sadly, driven away in exasperation. Too bad, he had so much knowledge to share with those willing to listen.

the same know-nothing types mentioned by the OP would go against him all the time. They are relentless, most of them with sales backgrounds, with zero technical knowledge.

Does not technical knowledge beyond just the superficial come in the way of being an audiophile?!

In a situation where the SUB is playing notes that would conventionally be played by one of the stereo speakers, it is potentially an issue as these frequencies are more "positional". In some cases you might find you can hear sounds obviously coming from the SUB rather than being more vaguely placed in the room.
Interesting... So would a better approach be a pair of Play5s + a single sub, or stick with Play1s and a sub for each channel? I'm assuming that some of the sounds in question would come from the centre if using a pair of Play1s and a single sub.

IMO, there won't be much of a difference between the 5 pair + Sub v 1 pair + Sub on the low frequency side because both pairs will shed low frequencies to the Sub. And with the Sub placed in the centre, I also don't see that some consequent LF in the region of 80hz plus which is the LF range that can be localised by ears as coming from the Sub in centre will make a difference to sound quality - in any case a lot of the sound in well recorded stereo music is anchored in the areas around the centre of the resultant sound stage. It is only the recordings from the early days of stereo that have a sharp break between left and right channels that often then leaves an unnatural sounding hole in the centre.

But that is also the reason why having the Sonos Sub "anywhere in the room" doesn't work well for music.

That said I know there are enthusiasts that promote a two smaller Subs configuration as opposed to one large one; I haven't heard any to opine. And in the case of Sonos, it isn't possible since that isn't a supported configuration.

Kudos for Sonos getting 25Hz out of such a small cabinet. Of course 25Hz doesn't really mean much without some reference to the volume level in dB of the rest of the subs range. Sonos doesn't publish that AFAIK.

Brent Butterworth measured the sub to CEA-2010 standards. What he found was quite interesting. The -3dB point was measured at 34dB, and at anything below 31.5dB the sub produced no measurable output at all. That chimes in with the way ported subs work, and particularly ones with very long ports. Their roll off is very steep. LINK: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-sonos-sub-page-2

Does any of this make this a bad sub? No, not at all.

Much of what we think of as low bass isn't anything of the sort. Anything much lower than 30Hz and you're starting to feel it rather than hear it.

One thing puzzles me though. There's a great fuss made about the fact that the cabinet doesn't buzz or rattle even at high volumes. Much of this is put down to the driver configuration; them facing each other. I've been using, selling and installing subs for the better part of the last two decades. I can't recall ever having that problem with conventional subs. Maybe this is an issue with budget subs? I haven't heard it because I haven't sold anything much cheaper than £250 for the entry-level Tannoy, KEF and Monitor Audio subs.

Will £700 buy a better sub than the Sonos? Yes. And will that alternative work with all the Sonos gear? No, of course it won't. Nor will the Sonos sub work with conventional stereo or home cinema gear. Its apples and pears.