Android and Trueplay



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I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

Well that’s an easy one, bad blood between them, potential $50M USD in yearly royalties, moving engineering teams to support Alexa instead instead of Google, not wanting to set a legal precedent of supporting Google products during a case (and appeals).

You have made an assumption that the exact same reason has held true since 2015 as to why they haven’t released it.

And you appear to have made a series of completely unfounded assumptions as well. 

Your profile is empty of Sonos products. You joined today, apparently to pick a fight. There’s a word for such antics. I decline to feed this any further.

 

This is all rationale discussion, no one is fighting. I don’t agree with all of your statements and you don’t agree with mine, we are still forum pals right?

I do own Sonus products (6 of them in fact with receipts if you want to see them), I don’t need Sonus products in a profile to actually own Sonus products. This is how “facts” get distorted.

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

Well that’s an easy one, bad blood between them, potential $50M USD in yearly royalties, moving engineering teams to support Alexa instead instead of Google, not wanting to set a legal precedent of supporting Google products during a case (and appeals).

 

 

Sonos has publicly stated that they believe Amazon has violated  their intellectual property rights, same as Google did.  They had also recently stated that Apple’s plan of allowing Siri on non-Apple devices, as long as you have a homepod in the house, is disingenuous.  Sonos does business with all these companies.  The idea that Sonos is holding grudges against Google over other big tech players, thinks that withholding trueplay from android devices will hurt Google more than it hurts their own business, and that Sonos would sacrafice profits for bad blood….just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

 

You have made an assumption that the exact same reason has held true since 2015 as to why they haven’t released it.

Could have been (and quite possible) microphone variability in 2013/14 Android devices, but unlikely to be the exact same reason 7-8 years later with the technical progress of handsets and wafer fab manufacturing. (however the excuse still holds and sounds reasonable, so they keep quoting it).

 

 

I think you’re correct that the consistency of microphones in android devices could very well have become more consistent since 2015.  However, that doesn’t mean that Sonos still thinks implementing trueplay in all devices was a good decision.  It’s entirely possible they continue the process because they know they will lose customers if they drop support.  So it makes sense that they don’t want to exacerbate the problem by supporting trueplay on additional devices.

But say that’s not the case, and trueplay in Apple was a good decision 7 years later.  Which android brands do they support?  Probably Samsung, or certain models of Samsung, since they have the most sales and likely market share.  Do they have consistent mics?  And when they do this, will Pixel and other android brand owners have no reaction to that?  If you and others don’t accept that statement that mics are consistent now, why would they if Sonos expands supported device a little bit?

 

The answer won’t be straight forward, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the reasons when they first announced it won’t support Android.

 

No, it isn’t straight forward.  We don’t if conditions have changed or what they have changed to.  We don’t what the level of effort is for enabling trueplay on a particular phone model.  We don’t know how much that effort would take away from other development efforts.  We don’t know if Sonos is working on alternatives. 

I just don’t see the point of assuming Sonos is lying just because you don’t like answer. If you have actual data on the mic parts in all the major brands and models of android to show that the volume of variations is on par with Apple products, than you’d have a point. Part of the reason Sonos often doesn’t provide explanations for their decisions is because they know that a certain segment of their customers will never accept the reason no matter what it is. 

This is all rationale discussion, no one is fighting. I don’t agree with all of your statements and you don’t agree with mine, we are still forum pals right?

I do own Sonus products (6 of them in fact with receipts if you want to see them), I don’t need Sonus products in a profile to actually own Sonus products. This is how “facts” get distorted.

 

It’s ‘Sonos’, S-O-N-O-S.  How can we take you seriously when you can’t even get the name correct? 

And unless you have two accounts, one to register your products and one to post here (a highly unlikely occurrence), you most certainly would need products in your profile in order to own Sonos products.  Yet another clue to your purpose here. 

My original point still stands (it is not fact and is my opinion, as stated in my replies).

I would like to know when Sonos would support TruePlay on Android, I doubt it is for microphone variability reasons in 2021 - as it has been claimed. Whether you want to believe what Sonos tells you, or whether I question that makes little different to when/if we ever get it. It’s all just a healthy debate.

I don’t know how many accounts I have (and nor do I care), but sounds like I must have registered in here with a different email address than my Sonos app. I have Sonos products as stated, however that appears in a forum I will leave to whoever runs the forum. Wasn’t aware I should have checked my profile to make sure it was an exact match before chatting in here. So no, you don’t need Sonos products on your profile, even though you own said products.

You don't have to take me seriously, just do some critical thinking rather than sprouting what everyone else says. I’m not here to pick a fight, and yes mentioned Sonos multiple times so you can see I know how to spell it.

Good day to you all.

 

Take care!  Brush your hair!

Userlevel 6

And unless you have two accounts, one to register your products and one to post here (a highly unlikely occurrence), you most certainly would need products in your profile in order to own Sonos products.  Yet another clue to your purpose here. 


The “Sonos products I own” on your Community profile is in no way linked to your actual “System” devices when you log into your Sonos account online. It’s a simple optional tick box selection.

 

Why wouldn’t SONOS check Android microphone variability from time to time, and enable Trueplay if SONOS found a model that uses consistent microphones? Even if a model ‘A’ was found that is consistent enough, owners of other models would pummel SONOS for not including model ‘B’.

This would be expensive and troublesome because Android models tend to turnover more frequently than Apple models. SONOS would need to regularly sample each Android model.

 

Trueplay on Android being microphone dependant is just a stupid excuse not to implement it. A calibrated microphone costs nothing compared to Sonos or iOs products. On Android devices we are able to use external mics. A Dayton Audio iMM-6 costs 40$ and MiniDSP UMIK-1 costs 80$ and both work perfectly on any Android device. Why not just assume that everyone has a calibrated mic and enable Trueplay on Android? Then if the user is using an Android device’s internal microphone and the result is crappy he can disable Trueplay. This is not rocket science.

ASS-U-ME.

Trueplay on Android being microphone dependant is just a stupid excuse not to implement it. A calibrated microphone costs nothing compared to Sonos or iOs products. On Android devices we are able to use external mics. A Dayton Audio iMM-6 costs 40$ and MiniDSP UMIK-1 costs 80$ and both work perfectly on any Android device. Why not just assume that everyone has a calibrated mic and enable Trueplay on Android? Then if the user is using an Android device’s internal microphone and the result is crappy he can disable Trueplay. This is not rocket science.

 

Did a little googling.  The Dayton clearly states that it’s designed for use with Apple products, and that’s calibrated.  It states that it works with android too, but doesn’t say anything about the calibration at that point.  Looks like you can get it calibrated on android, but you have to do some extra works.  Not 100% clear, but does seem to support the idea that calibrated mics is a bit more of an issue on androids then iOS.

https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1117/imm-6-idevice-calibrated-measurement-microphone

As for the MiniDSP...$80 seems generous.  Also apparently only supports Windows, Mac, and Linux.  But maybe there’s another version that I’m not seeing.

https://www.parts-express.com/miniDSP-UMIK-1-Omni-directional-USB-Measurement-Calibrated-Microphone-230-332

 

Anyway, I don’t see that assuming customers have their own calibrated mic is a good assumption.  Nor do I think it’s a good idea to allow customers to do trueplay when it will likely be flawed. 

Calibration of the mics is done with a file that's loaded to the measurement software. Just like in any professional case it would be done. No mic is "calibrated" from factory, there's always manufacturing tolerances. The whole idea of calibration is measuring the deviation of the microphone once it's ready and adjusting the measurements to that unit's deviation. This might come as a surprise to some iDevice fans, but their device's microphones are not calibrated. Sonos has probably measured a few samples and created an average "calibration" for said devices but in reality they're just as useful as any random microphone off the shelf (or in any Android device). No two microphones will give the same measurement if they're not uniquely calibrated after manufacturing. So if it's too bold to say assume everyone's got a calibrated mic I'd say assume no one's got a calibrated mic and throw one in the box with the speakers.

 

And yeah the microphones I mentioned do work on android devices. I've tested. And I can use the supplied calibration files too so I can make reliable and repeatable measurements with either one. But you do need a 3,5 mm connector for the Dayton or USB OTG for Umik so I guess iDevices are out of luck?

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$80 for a mike that is going to need fiddling doesn’t sound great.

My used Apple iPod touch 6th Generation (16 GB) cost about that.

It’s not likely that regular folk will want to invest another $40 or $80 when so many complain about the cost of SONOS products. And there will certainly be complaints that Apple users don’t need to incur this expanse.

With regard to the cost of SONOS products ‘overpriced’ or not depends on the point of view. If one is expecting a SONOS unit to be a simple Bluetooth computer or phone accessory, SONOS is expensive. I’ve seen $10 Bluetooth speakers hanging on department store pegs near the checkout counter. However, in the context of whole house audio, SONOS is not expensive and it works better and has a more consistent user interface than other products.  SONOS will support up to 32 rooms. Look at other products and most will hit a limit at less than 10 rooms. Also, SONOS players from 2005 are still viable.

+1 for alternative options.  I dont know anyone who has apple to borrow off (one guy at work has an iphone, but hes not willing to lend it to me).  we have 3 android phones and 2 android tablets.  i have both umik-1 and a umik-2 which i use to with my amplifier calibration (on my windows xps laptop using dirac live).  The calibration is device independent (i plug the umik into my laptop and import the calibration file which is identified by serial number).  i would appreciate the option to run software e.g. on my laptop if android is not an option.

Anybody have any idea what "a cheap Apple dingus off ebay to solve my TruePlay issues" Stanley_4 was referring to?.

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I got one of these from ebay.

Apple iPod touch 6th Generation Space Gray (16 GB). Model A1574.
 

Similar ones: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2553889.m570.l1313&_nkw=Apple+iPod+touch+6th+Generation&_sacat=0

 

No idea what prices will be like with Apple ending production.

No idea about ongoing firmware / OS updates from Apple.

No idea what Sonos is going to do about supporting them either.

 

 

I use two sonos five on stereo as test system befor going further with sonos or not. 

After first setup the "standard sound" is disappointing to say it nice. I thought about sending both back. Accidentally a friend dropped and i used her iPhone for this true play stuff and then the sound is, well, ok.

But the system is designated for our cottage where nobody has a iPhone. Again the sound is not bad but far beyond to be good. As long as no iPhone addict drops in Sonos is good as a radio background player. 

Before, i had several other Sonos products on the list but didn't buy any, because of this annoying fact.

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I’m confused by your statement. The TruePlay tuning is stored on the speakers, until erased by doing another TruePlay tuning. Once it’s done, you can turn it off or on, using the Android devices. There is zero requirement, once TruePlay is done, for there to be a iOS device in the house. 

Do a search on “Android Trueplay” and you will see it is impossible due to quality differences in Android microphones.  The mics used in Apple are all made with the same specifications.  With Android they can vary greatly even within the same model, depending on where and when it was manufactured.  

Many have requested the ability to use a standard external microphone, but Sonos has never commented on this request. 

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