Android and Trueplay



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Why not check the Sonos website (https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3222) before wildly borrowing and ordering iOS devices?

Why not check the Sonos website (https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3222) before wildly borrowing and ordering iOS devices?

True. Would help if Sonos would listwhat's s working within the app instead of: ‘just borrow an iOS device from a friend' - no mention of specifics. You would also expect that the 8th gen iPads available for over a year, to be currently supported.  There's just no justification from a technical point of view to not already support these items, including Android devices. They just can't be bothered. It's very basic and convenient software that's been available on most home receivers for the past decade. Sonos make TruePlay a big point in their marketing material and should have this software available for most platforms and hardware configurations by now. But yes, next time I'll check on their website! (I didn't buy the 9th Gen iPad specifically for this! Rather I hoped that I would finally be able to use this function)

 

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@Occam's Cat , you're in the wrong place if you expect such reasonableness to be welcomed.

To expect a billion dollar company to have managed to get hold of a few devices and added them before widespread public adoption seems reasonable, nevermind so long afterwards.

Android users have been complaining about not being able to do Trueplay tuning for years yet they still continue to purchase Sonos products. Sonos must be doing something right.

True but this is something you don't necessarily realise till you've bought into a system and even the cheapest speakers aren't budget price, so once your in you either lose money and move on or stick with it. I'm lucky that I could access an iPhone but that doesn't excuse Sonos from giving all their users quality products and support, especially at Sonos prices. 

 It's very basic and convenient software that's been available on most home receivers for the past decade. 

 

Software is not the issue. These receivers are using a microphone of known characteristics. With Android devices, each model phone will have different microphone characteristics and these characteristics change during production. In order to achieve reliable results, SONOS would need to test each production run of Android phones and develop a database of microphone characteristics by phone serial number. Given the number of Android production runs, past and present, this is not a practical project.

Would you be willing to submit your Android to a service facility and have it’s microphone calibrated?

 It's very basic and convenient software that's been available on most home receivers for the past decade. 

 

Software is not the issue. These receivers are using a microphone of known characteristics. With Android devices, each model phone will have different microphone characteristics and these characteristics change during production. In order to achieve reliable results, SONOS would need to test each production run of Android phones and develop a database of microphone characteristics by phone serial number. Given the number of Android production runs, past and present, this is not a practical project.

Would you be willing to submit your Android to a service facility and have it’s microphone calibrated?

...and yet they have have no problems buying and testing certain Apple devices, eh? There are far more numerous Android users and devices that Apple. It's not difficult to develop software profiles for the top 5 best selling Android phones each year. Sonos are just plain lazy.

 

Edit: A quick search informed me that Apple use 3 different suppliers for their microphones. I'm sure it would be very straight forward to profile the latest Samsung phones' microphones, at the very least.

In addition to the raw microphone characteristics, case construction is in the mix. Also, how long do we need to wait before we know what the best selling Androids will be in a given year? Although this is not a scientific sample, my techie friends all have Androids, but a majority of people I encounter who own SONOS systems, use iPhones.

The SONOS database knows the iOS/Android ratio and may be aware of model numbers, but is unlikely to be able to track variations during production runs. SONOS would need to accumulate at least a year’s worth of data before deciding which Android models warrant further research. Then SONOS would need to sample units from different production runs in order to decide if it would be practical to develop a profile for that model. Regardless, millions of users who don’t own that model would be disappointed and grumbling that SONOS ignored the “best” Android.

Although this is not a scientific sample, my techie friends all have Androids, but a majority of people I encounter who own SONOS systems, use iPhones.

 

Digressing a little: I can completely understand the latter part quoted, but I also find it ironic/funny that there are some vocal fans of Sonos here who are also Apple haters, largely because - hold your breath - Apple is a closed system...:rofl:

Just bought Beam gen 2. “Borrow an iphone from a friend” to utilize an important feature that is advertised as part of this 500 euro product? 
Nah, there’s options out there Sonos. Good alternative options.
Back to the box.

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Which is of course your choice.

Just bought Beam gen 2. “Borrow an iphone from a friend” to utilize an important feature that is advertised as part of this 500 euro product? 
Nah, there’s options out there Sonos. Good alternative options.
Back to the box.

 

And which of those options allows you to do custom room tuning using your Android phone?

The amount of tribalism and attachment toward profit-seeking corporations is funny. Consumerism at its finest.

Android users want a feature that's useful and rightfully feel left out and that their user needs are not being met. No, they're not entitled to TruePlay and making salty proclamations of ending their relationship with Sonos does essentially nothing. But they're Sonos users like anyone else, and are voicing a valid opinion that does have interesting context and questions around it.

Does Sonos see vastly higher user numbers on iOS and feel that Android users don't buy Sonos anyway? Do they think that TruePlay is a big draw and that adding it for Pixel/Galaxy will bring in more Android users, or do they feel like it doesn't really affect purchasing patterns? Are there technological limitations involved? We probably won't get a satisfying answer to these questions, but the end result is that Android users wish they could have a very useful feature, and are saying as much.

Personally I think it's inevitable that Sonos does expand TruePlay to Android to maximize the number of potential customers, but it all comes down to prioritization. Until that happens, all Android users can do is to continue making it known that there's a demand for it.

I am an Android user and +1 to this. I fully understand the wide variety of Android devices and MIC characteristics make it a nightmare, though narrowing to Samsung/Pixel would reduce that. Simply providing a calibrated MIC can end this phone-specific mic dependency and make it universal. The local processing should be able to run on any phone except maybe the lowest end ones. My wife uses a supported iPhone so the “borrow” business is easy for me luckily.

Even for iOS devices Sonos has to keep measuring and supporting newer devices every year. Given the time it takes to do that I suspect that is repetitive, grunt engineering effort.

Another thought. The Sonos Roam/Move includes a TruePlay MIC. Why not allow using that to TruePlay other Sonos devices in the network. Should make sense from a sales point of view as well :grinning:

Why would Sonos narrow to Samsung / Pixel? Wouldn’t that make every other Android device owner angry? Or is it that you happen to own a Samsung / Pixel? 
 

If I recall, Samsung and other manufacturers has used different mics even within a single telephone line, so if Sonos were to see an Android phone of X type, it might have any of several different mics in it, and they couldn’t assume that all that line of phones have the same audio profile for the mics. 

Given that MOVE and ROAM support auto Trueplay, I can imagine that SONOS will move in this direction for many products. It might be possible to use the microphone in a MOVE or ROAM to tune systems that do not include a microphone.

The amount of tribalism and attachment toward profit-seeking corporations is funny. Consumerism at its finest.

 

 

People tend to claim that someone who disagrees with them must be subjective, while completely ignoring the objective arguments that have made.  There have been several logical arguments made in this thread.  If can show that the arguments are invalid, I would agree that myself and and others are just being fanboys.  However, just claiming subjectivity without backing it up really does get anywhere.

Android users want a feature that's useful and rightfully feel left out and that their user needs are not being met. No, they're not entitled to TruePlay and making salty proclamations of ending their relationship with Sonos does essentially nothing. But they're Sonos users like anyone else, and are voicing a valid opinion that does have interesting context and questions around it.

 

 

True.  And I don’t think there would be any disagreement if people only stated that they wanted android trueplay functionality.  But it usually doesn’t stop there, with people assuming the reason it doesn’t exist nefarious.

 

Does Sonos see vastly higher user numbers on iOS and feel that Android users don't buy Sonos anyway? Do they think that TruePlay is a big draw and that adding it for Pixel/Galaxy will bring in more Android users, or do they feel like it doesn't really affect purchasing patterns? Are there technological limitations involved? We probably won't get a satisfying answer to these questions, but the end result is that Android users wish they could have a very useful feature, and are saying as much.

 

Sonos stated along time ago that the reason was because of the lack of consistency in microphones on android phones.  It’s not a secret, although perhaps Sonos could state that more frequently.  The problem is that people tend to ignore answers they don’t like.  

 

Personally I think it's inevitable that Sonos does expand TruePlay to Android to maximize the number of potential customers, but it all comes down to prioritization. Until that happens, all Android users can do is to continue making it known that there's a demand for it.

 

You can only draw that conclusion if you don’t know the technical issues or just choose to ignore them.

 

I’m an android user myself, and I would definitely like to see a trueplay solution for non-Apple users.  I just don’t think it will happen by just putting trueplay software on android phones.

 

Given that MOVE and ROAM support auto Trueplay, I can imagine that SONOS will move in this direction for many products. It might be possible to use the microphone in a MOVE or ROAM to tune systems that do not include a microphone.

 

My impression is that auto Trueplay is the lesser cousin of regular trueplay.  So in that regard, Sonos doesn’t want to equip their non-mobile speakers with auto trueplay...as it would be step down?  I could see using the Roam as the mic, as it’s easy to move around like your phone.  The Move seems too big and heavy for that.    I’d like to see Sonos come out with a separate mic device, possibly something that connects to your phone to keep costs down.  If it can work on android and apple devices, than it remove the need to test trueplay with each new Apple device.  

I would guess Sonos is a bit concerned with giving customers the impression that trueplay is essential for Sonos speakers.  They don’t want customers thinking they must have Apple, or buy a Roam or some other mic device  as a startup fee.  I think they also have marketing data that gives them an idea of how well Roams or other mic device would sell if they went that route.  I really hope they are already working on a mic device, but no clue whether that’s happening or not.

 

 

.  I really hope they are already working on a mic device, but no clue whether that’s happening or not.

I don’t think that this would be well received, but there would be ptential new groups of complaints:

  • I don’t want to fumble with yet another device -- i already have a midrophone in my current device.
  • Why am I forced to buy something else, just to be able to use my system?
  • Android users - It’s already brult into Apple devides
  • This is complicated

It does make me wonder if they never should have released TruePlay at all. Many people seem to think it is a silver bullet, and decry the lack of it.
 

Or at least kept it in reserve until there is a suitable alternative for all users. 

.  I really hope they are already working on a mic device, but no clue whether that’s happening or not.

I don’t think that this would be well received, but there would be ptential new groups of complaints:

  • I don’t want to fumble with yet another device -- i already have a midrophone in my current device.
  • Why am I forced to buy something else, just to be able to use my system?
  • Android users - It’s already brult into Apple devides
  • This is complicated

I agree. It may be fine for some android users like myself, but won’t satisfy some or appear as another burden to others.  I don’t really think using a Move or Roam would be much different though, as the same arguements would apply.  Sure, you can use the portable speakers has value for other reasons obviously, but it’s going to cost you more, and some have no need for it otherwise.

In my imagination, Sonos doesn’t need to make and sell the microphone themselves, they can just get contracts with existing usb/lightning cable based mics that be purchased for cheap.  Just need a guarantee that the mic specifics won’t change?  Sonos could also drop support for trueplay in iphones/ipads natively lowering support costs.  Perhaps allowing them to sell the mics cheaper.  That wouldn’t stop all complaints though, and would probably create new ones.

Even if Sonos included a free mic with every purchase, people would complain about the eWaste. If Sonos made it free if you buy direct, their retail partners would complain.

As an aside, pro installers would love this as they would only need to buy one and would give customers a reason to go through them.

 

It does make me wonder if they never should have released TruePlay at all. Many people seem to think it is a silver bullet, and decry the lack of it.
 

Or at least kept it in reserve until there is a suitable alternative for all users. 

 

Since a lot of home receivers come with them, it probably was a checkbox they felt they needed to fill in.  Of course other vendor tuning and trueplay are not the same, and that perhaps was thought of as a positive and something that differentiated Sonos.  I do wonder if they regret the decision though.

But yes, I imagine Sonos would love to fine a good alternative.

 

 

 

 

My bet is that is has nothing to do with technology, Apple are not using magical mystery microphones and software from a special wormhole that no-one else can access. Anyone would think from this 5 year old excuse that only Apple cares everything about audio and no other phone manufacturer could care less about what mic is thrown in.

The mic packages (for Apple and Pixel/Galaxy) are made in China to strict specifications. DXOMark has scored Android audio performance higher than Apple for a quite a while (in particular the Xiaomi Mi 10 Pro).

More likely reason is the court case between them for the past couple of years regarding patent infringement. Send the engineers into an anechoic chamber with a Pixel, Galaxy and Xiaomi and they would be profiled/audio modelled very quickly.

More likely reason is the court case between them for the past couple of years regarding patent infringement. 

Check your facts. Trueplay was introduced back in November 2015. The legal action started several years later.

It’s already been stated, multiple times, that even within one premium line of Android phone there were found to be umpteen variations of mic supply and hence audio characteristics. If Sonos could support Trueplay reliably on Android I’m sure they’d have done so years ago. And I for one would have welcomed it. 

As it is, I just keep an old iPod Touch (6th gen) aside for Trueplay tuning.

Agree on the old iPhone, I have one myself.

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages. All manufacturers would have variations across batches (including Apple).

Wherever the “umpteen variations of mic supply” statement comes from, doesn’t mean it still holds true today and is true for all Android manufacturers. I would be very surprised if the Google Pixel 6 flagship had any more mic variability than an iPhone (my opinion). So if your “fact” is from 2015, might be time for them to re-check 7 years later.

Whatever the real reason (technical/marketing/legal), I don’t think we will see TruePlay on Android any time soon.

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

Well that’s an easy one, bad blood between them, potential $50M USD in yearly royalties, moving engineering teams to support Alexa instead instead of Google, not wanting to set a legal precedent of supporting Google products during a case (and appeals).

You have made an assumption that the exact same reason has held true since 2015 as to why they haven’t released it.

Could have been (and quite possible) microphone variability in 2013/14 Android devices, but unlikely to be the exact same reason 7-8 years later with the technical progress of handsets and wafer fab manufacturing. (however the excuse still holds and sounds reasonable, so they keep quoting it).

The answer won’t be straight forward, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the reasons when they first announced it won’t support Android.

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

Well that’s an easy one, bad blood between them, potential $50M USD in yearly royalties, moving engineering teams to support Alexa instead instead of Google, not wanting to set a legal precedent of supporting Google products during a case (and appeals).

You have made an assumption that the exact same reason has held true since 2015 as to why they haven’t released it.

And you appear to have made a series of completely unfounded assumptions as well. 

Your profile is empty of Sonos products. You joined today, apparently to pick a fight. There’s a word for such antics. I refuse to feed this any further.

 

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