Yes I have read many other topics and comments regarding 5.1 setup and yes I understand that a Beam/Playbar/Playbase is designed as a 3.0 speaker.
BUT I honestly don't understand why I can't add 2 additional speakers, e.g. Play 5 as an additional stereo pair. I own a Playbase and a SUB (and 2 Play 1 as surround speakers). The Playbase is so smart, it has appropriate software, that it detects that a SUB has been added and reduces the bass and/or concentrates on the mid tones. The same could work with 2 additional speakers in the front area, so that the Playbase becomes a real center.
Yes, I also understand that something similar might work by grouping. But that's not a real 5.1, where the signals are split accordingly. Apart from the inconsistency that results from the different latencies of the loudspeakers.
With HDMI ARC (e.g. with the Beam), longer latencies shouldn't be a problem anymore, as the SONOS speakers can take enough time to buffer or process the signal and communicate it to the TV. This is what HDMI ARC is designed for.
Yes, I could buy an AMP (and 2 new speakers from another vendor like B&W) to get a better stereo result, both for movies and music. Especially listening to music is kind of ok with the Playbase, but not the way I imagine it to be. But this would make me lose a real center for movies.
This brings me back to 2 Play 5, which I would like to buy to get a great result for movies but maybe more importantly a great result (with SUB) for music.
SONOS, I want to give you money by buying additional speakers. Unfortunately, your current strict concept of 5.1 prevents me from doing so. Think about it.
Please extend the (software) capabilities of the 5.1 setup so that you can add 2 additional speakers as stereo pairs, making the Beam/Playbase/Playbar (or only the Beam as it is currently the only one with HDMI ARC) the center AND you can enjoy music again in STEREO with SUB.
At that point you would create a complete solution that will satisfy more demanding customers without losing the mainstream.
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Please extend the (software) capabilities of the 5.1 setup so that you can add 2 additional speakers as stereo pairs, making the Beam/Playbase/Playbar (or only the Beam as it is currently the only one with HDMI ARC) the center AND you can enjoy music again in STEREO with SUB.
At that point you would create a complete solution that will satisfy more demanding customers without losing the mainstream.
I agree; and this isn't a new suggestion here.
I would go further and allow the use of just the 2 additional speakers + Sub for music to yield the best effects for it, with music encoded in just two channels. The centre speaker role is then better served by a phantom centre effect for best stereo imaging, rather than by an actual centre speaker; the latter may even damage the stereo image for music.
For TV, the entire centre unit can be used for just the centre channel; here, there is a dedicated centre channel coded, usually for the dialogues.
And for TV, the presence of two separated front speakers will give a better result for off screen sound effects or for those panning across the width of the screen, than what is obtained from just one box that sits under the TV, even though the box has right and left speakers inside it.
And for those that haven't the space or the budget for two additional front speakers, the existing option should remain available, as a compromise.
This is such a no brainer; I don't know why Sonos did not implement this before creating no less than three similar in philosophy central units that deliver the output of three channels.
I like the concept as well, and would consider it in my own system. I'd that this would also be a benefit to users with hearing issues and want to be able to place wireless 'front speakers' in place of surround speakers. However, I can't conclude that it's a no brainer decision to make. To play a little devil's advocate, consider these points.
- What is the size of the market for the proposed setup? How many would chose this setup over a normal soundbar setup, using a Sonos amp for front wired speakers, or going with a traditional wired setup? I can't say there is a lot of money to made from this, particularly after factoring in costs. Maybe there is, don't know.
- The existing setup are limited to a maximum of 4 Sonos products bonded together for one room. Adding 2 new speakers for the front would surely require additional testing to ensure that the wireless connections are stable in a normal home environment. That's a cost. Sonos could opt to remove surrounds from the new proposed configuration, but that would likely drop interest in the configuration pretty heavily.
- There would be software changes, possibly minor, but would need to involve product setups as well as operation. That would need to be tested. Sonos would also need to make changes to trueplay and test that as well. Again, these are costs.
- Should this only be allowed with play:5s as front speakers? Should it be developed for the Sonos One/Play:1 and new ikea speakers? What about the amps? What about play:3 and other speakers no longer for sale?
- Outside of this, this new configuration could very well cause confusion and frustration with customers. The volume of possible configurations is already high, and this would expand it exponentially. Some customers may complain about the in availability of a center channel only speaker. Some may be frustrated that extra speakers don't allow for a 7.1 configuration. Maybe it won't be a big deal, but certain something worth considering.
- Will this feature quickly become obsolete/replaced with an upcoming Sonos product (atmos perhaps)? Leaving no time to recoup costs?
Again, I like the idea and certainly wouldn't complain if it was done. I just can't say that it's a guaranteed profit for Sonos, happy customers, and therefore should be done with no consideration for costs.
- What is the size of the market for the proposed setup? How many would chose this setup over a normal soundbar setup, using a Sonos amp for front wired speakers, or going with a traditional wired setup? I can't say there is a lot of money to made from this, particularly after factoring in costs. Maybe there is, don't know.
- The existing setup are limited to a maximum of 4 Sonos products bonded together for one room. Adding 2 new speakers for the front would surely require additional testing to ensure that the wireless connections are stable in a normal home environment. That's a cost. Sonos could opt to remove surrounds from the new proposed configuration, but that would likely drop interest in the configuration pretty heavily.
- There would be software changes, possibly minor, but would need to involve product setups as well as operation. That would need to be tested. Sonos would also need to make changes to trueplay and test that as well. Again, these are costs.
- Should this only be allowed with play:5s as front speakers? Should it be developed for the Sonos One/Play:1 and new ikea speakers? What about the amps? What about play:3 and other speakers no longer for sale?
- Outside of this, this new configuration could very well cause confusion and frustration with customers. The volume of possible configurations is already high, and this would expand it exponentially. Some customers may complain about the in availability of a center channel only speaker. Some may be frustrated that extra speakers don't allow for a 7.1 configuration. Maybe it won't be a big deal, but certain something worth considering.
- Will this feature quickly become obsolete/replaced with an upcoming Sonos product (atmos perhaps)? Leaving no time to recoup costs?
Again, I like the idea and certainly wouldn't complain if it was done. I just can't say that it's a guaranteed profit for Sonos, happy customers, and therefore should be done with no consideration for costs.
Is 4 Sonos products in one room a (known) hard limitation? I guess I can set up a lot more in one (large) room if I want to.
No, that's the limitation for the surround configuration. You can add up in total 32 units. "Room" in Sonos terms is just a naming convention for a player/component.
Makes sense. I was just confused.
Like @melvimbe, I don't think one could complain about this functionality being added, but it would incur development and support costs, as well as being an expensive option for the complete system.
I'm not sure these costs for Sonos are justified against the comparator of a traditional HT amplifier and 5/7.1 speakers, plus a Connect for Sonos integration. With good quality front L/R passive speakers (with the subwoofer optionally participating), this kind of setup can also be great for stereo audio.
I'm not sure these costs for Sonos are justified against the comparator of a traditional HT amplifier and 5/7.1 speakers, plus a Connect for Sonos integration. With good quality front L/R passive speakers (with the subwoofer optionally participating), this kind of setup can also be great for stereo audio.
Well that´s actually the beauty of the Sonos system. Each can decide on its own needs. You can just pimp your TV sound with a Beam for a few hundred bucks or you can go for a full fledged system for several thousand bucks.
I don´t want cables and I love the flexibility the Sonos system gives me. But actually I am currently looking for other alternatives to achieve the setup I want. That´s not good for Sonos.
No question, I like my current TV setup. But I want a good stereo music setup, too. Buying two Play 5s to listen to music but not being able to leverage those for TV sound seems ridiculous to me. Not even mentioning that leveraging the same SUB for a 5.1 and a separate stereo pair is pain. That´s a different but related problem as it could be solved with the request I described initially.
Well, there is the small matter of the 6 x power cables :)
However, I'm actually quite supportive of your argument. I think the market is probably small for Sonos but it's possible that the development & support costs are also relatively small, and it would add some nice flexibility.
- Should this only be allowed with play:5s as front speakers?
No, with any speaker pair. IMO it was a no brainer back in the day of playbar - anyone that had it and a Sub/Surrounds would have been able to make a TV set up to compare on even terms with legacy HT set ups, consequent to the availability of separated speakers for front left/right components of 5.1. And they would also get the benefit of a HiFi class stereo set up, even if the front speakers were the cheap play 1 units, if the Sub was in the mix, with just these used for 2.1. Of course, those who could, would go the 5 unit route for the front pair.
Instead today, with physically bundled 3 channels of the 5.1, the set up is a compromise for both HT and stereo music. Irrespective of which of the three bundled 3 channel boxes are used.
My no brainer comment was for doing it back in the day, when there was just a playbar, before the subsequent two additions were done, although I suspect it would work best and cost effectively for customers if the central unit was the Beam.
Doing it now - I don't know if it is worthwhile.
And no brainer does not imply easy to do. But offering a configuration option that can simultaneously compete for best in class for both TV and music would have been the outcome.
Before looking outside Sonos, I suggest adding a 5 pair and seeing how it works for just music. The 5 units do not need the Sub as much as the Beam does, being capable of quite respectable bass delivery.
Also: what's the alternative anyway that is better/more elegant to get best sound for TV and music in the same space?
PS: the Connect+5.1/7.1AVR+wired speakers that pwt suggests is the best solution provided that the AVR has a stereo direct button for music play. But there is that little detail of speaker cable runs...
The DENON Heos AVR with some good speakers like B&W could be an alternative. Not as elegant and flexible but pretty powerful, especially with the option to use wireless speakers for surround to avoid long cables.
A company like Sonos with already good market share has usually 2 options to grow (and every company needs to grow).
Option 1 is to extend its user base with some new (lower end) products, like IKEA Symfonisk. I personally doubt that Sonos will have a real benefit from this move, in terms of its brand. Actually who really cares who is currently building the TVs for IKEA or the smart lighting system? It could be the same with Symfonisk. IKEA has a much larger benefit of it.
Option 2 is to sell more products to their existing customers which may have (in best case) an increasing demand for better, more powerful products over time, like me. If Sonos will not deliver this, someone else will at some point in time.
Combining both options is of course best but hardest to do.
I am a software developer. And the ability to add more speakers to a surround setup with discreet signals sounds like a software problem to me. But I may be wrong and this is not possible with existing hardware. Sonos may know.
To be clear, the market I'm referring to is that subset of Sonos customers who would want discrete front L/R Sonos speakers in addition to a Playbar/Playbase/Beam + surrounds + sub arrangement. One of the value propositions of a playbar solution is to avoid the additional front speakers; on the other hand, there is no Sonos solution with discrete front L/C/R speakers.
A company like Sonos with already good market share has usually 2 options ...
I'll resist critiquing your business analysis. I hope that Sonos has good business strategists who are taking an evidence-based approach to the choices and tradeoffs they have to make. They have the market data, we do not.
I am a software developer. And the ability to add more speakers to a surround setup with discreet signals sounds like a software problem to me. But I may be wrong and this is not possible with existing hardware. Sonos may know.
It probably is a software problem, provided the 5GHz connectivity has enough practical bandwidth to support the extra speakers, and that the Playbar/Playbase/Beam have enough horsepower to manage the distribution of the extra channels.
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