The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
January 23, 2020
570 replies
22879 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

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Ryan S

Retired Sonos Staff

Yowsuh! I think I have to re-read that one in the morning. :joy:
I read it twice and am still not sure I followed but i think I know where you’re going.
(It’s 1:56am here and I am officially overdone. Catch you again.)

Lol. I know the feeling.

I think this cloud bridge between legacy and modern systems using Amazon Alexa groups should work, but I cannot test it because Sonos has not brought the Alexa integration to India. In the Alexa app, one can group devices in a way that permanently (unless changed later) assigns any single Echo device to speakers that Alexa recognises and shows in the Alexa app; or many such can be assembled and assigned as a group by checking boxes next to Alexa discovered speakers. Any command by voice to the Echo device then gets music to play in sync without having to say more than “Alexa, Play such and such music”, via something in the cloud that streams this music to all checked box speakers, in sync. So, if the Alexa app is able to see Sonos speakers in a legacy system, as well as those in a modern system, checking boxes for both speakers while making a group should get the job done, thanks to Amazon tech extending a shake hand to Sonos servers.

No more split systems then, where Echo devices are deployed. This won’t work for NAS music play of course, because Amazon does not support that play.

Again, this one is for @Ryan S to have at!

The team is still working on some things here, so I’m hesitant to give more information where it might not be accurate. So I’m going to speak on how a setup works today if you have two Sonos household on your network, with the caveat that it may not be how a split system looks in the future.

Right now, you can only properly add one Sonos household to Alexa. People with multiple homes already run into this today.

Alexa groups can send a grouping command to Sonos devices, creating a Sonos group and then playing to them. If you have two separate Sonos systems at the home, you can’t group devices across them.

Currently, all legacy devices have a line-in connection, so you could use anything with the ability to play grouped with an audio output hooked up to an input on the legacy, and if you have a line-in on the modern system as well. That would include using a Port as part of the modern system to output audio into the line-in on a legacy system. But it could also include using two Echo Dots with Alexa linked with one of your two households.

We’ll have more to share in May, so while it’s great to be considering options, nothing is changing right now and you’ll have plenty of time to decide what you’d like to test out as more information becomes available.

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.

chickentender

As I said it works fine for me and working through Chromecast it renders artwork on the tv screen as well. As well as via Fire sticks.

And the app control interface can be via either a phone or a computer.

But you can also do this via the Amazon music app and your echos will do multi room sync plus voice as well. So, why Spotify?

I guess I would say two theoretical reasons why Spotify over just using the Alexa app. First the idea that Spotify connect allows each device to stream directly from spotify's servers. This may be more of a theoretical advantage than practical. Second, I could add a Google home and numerous other vendors hardware and Spotify will not care. If I use Alexa I am tied into the Amazon environment. Although unlikely, what stops Amazon from obsoleting all their old echo devices. Since Spotify is a content provider, it makes sense to me that they have a financial incentive to make the Spotify app and protocol as accessible as possible to as many hardware vendors as possible.

In terms of streaming with Spotify Connect, yes you’re correct the device used is is pulling the stream (to the best of my knowledge) from Spotify’s server while playback is happening and the Spotify interface on your device is acting as a controller, as opposed to (as you’ve mentioned) using Bluetooth or Airplay where the device you’re using to control is pulling the stream and then sending it to the playback device.

Caveat with Spotify Connect is that (as also mentioned above) it can only play to one source. You can play to multiple Sonos speakers but the grouping is done via the Sonos controller. As seen in the screenshot - there are multiple devices on my network to play to with Spotify Connect, including the Sonos One with 2 additional (+2) speakers in that group as defined by speaker zone grouping with Sonos itself. You cannot select to play to multiple playback destinations - you can only choose one.

The only 3rd party streaming interface that I’m aware of (there may be others, I’m not sure) that can define/change speaker groups within the app itself is Pandora’s Sonos integration (mobile only, not desktop or web versions) but I think that capability is limited to Sonos speakers specifically.

K

KumarAuthor

@Ryan S thanks! So on the alexa app, only one set of Sonos speakers would be discovered as devices? If yes, would changing this to have both so discovered not be easier than getting legacy and modern systems to be inter operable at a local Sonos level? As has been said by Sonos, the latter is impossible.

As to your idea of using a port on a modern system to output audio via line in to a legacy Sonos line in: the two systems would not be in sync. The legacy one would play later?

Can you elaborate on the two echo dots with Alexa linked with one of the two systems and your reference to both having line in jacks: do you mean one echo dot wired to line in of one system and the other wired to the line in of the other system and then grouping the two dots via Alexa to play together via Amazon tech? Would the two systems be able to achieve sync that is close enough to the perfect needed to avoid audible out of sync effects? That is something I could test without needing the India integration? And if it works today on my one system, it can work just as well on two systems in future?

K

KumarAuthor

@MikeOinToronto , you can also cast from the Amazon music app to echo devices such that the stream switches over direct to the echo device, with the phone acting just as a controller. And this is also what Spotify connect does as @chickentender has pointed out.

chickentender

@Ryan S thanks! So on the alexa app, only one set of Sonos speakers would be discovered as devices? If yes, would changing this to have both so discovered not be easier than getting legacy and modern systems to be inter operable at a local Sonos level? As has been said by Sonos, the latter is impossible.

As to your idea of using a port on a modern system to output audio via line in to a legacy Sonos line in: the two systems would not be in sync. The legacy one would play later?

Can you elaborate on the two echo dots with Alexa linked with one of the two systems and your reference to both having line in jacks: do you mean one echo dot wired to line in of one system and the other wired to the line in of the other system and then grouping the two dots via Alexa to play together via Amazon tech? Would the two systems be able to achieve sync that is close enough to the perfect needed to avoid audible out of sync effects? That is something I could test without needing the India integration? And if it works today on my one system, it can work just as well on two systems in future?

If the modern system Port (or modern Connect for that matter) is sending its output to the LINE-IN of a legacy speaker on legacy network, there would be no audible audio (nothing to be “out of sync”) coming from the Port itself other than to whichever device it’s physically connected to, in this case the legacy Sonos device, which syncs the music with other legacy speakers grouped with it before it is heard from the speaker itself.

K

KumarAuthor

@chickentender it's now past my midnight, so my turn to be fuzzy.

If the port is silent, even so, other modern units grouped with it would be all playing before the legacy system that is fed by a line in signal from the port. And if the modern units are also silent, where is the integration of music play across two systems?

chickentender

@chickentender it's now past my midnight, so my turn to be fuzzy.

If the port is silent, even so, other modern units grouped with it would be all playing before the legacy system that is fed by a line in signal from the port. And if the modern units are also silent, where is the integration of music play across two systems?

Ahhhh.. yes, I wasn’t considering other modern grouped speakers. Very good point. That does sound to be problematic.

And I know the feeling as you’re aware. Hahaha. Goodnight Kumar! :sweat_smile: (and good morning from me!)

K

KumarAuthor

@chickentender catch you later! And even though I say this myself, credit to all for what I think: at this time, there is no thread here at a higher level of discussion. And credit to all for the self imposed no profanity discipline as well.

chickentender

All of the recent above is partially why I’ve no interest personally whatsoever in having a split modern/legacy Sonos system. I want my Sonos system all working together at all times, whether modern or not. I want my speaker networks, regardless of brand in fact, to be in sync. This is a benefit of Airplay2, but in my opinion it’s also rather “fallback” of sorts simply because I don't want my mobile device to be the source of the stream on the network, but rather just to act as controllers.

You see it sounds as if my wants are met by having a wireless environment that 100% Sonos, or 100% Bluesound, or 100% Raspberry Pi. The exception being my main listening area which can be comprised of whatever I like, so long as it has an access point to stream sync’d music to other areas as a source of those areas.

While I like the idea of the Roon approach (to bring up another solution that potentially address all the problems that most are concerned with), I do not like the idea of the heavy server system requirements as your needs scale up, nor do I like the idea of high subscription outlay for playing my own home audio. The lifetime price is somewhat acceptable but will it last…? And, I already own lifetime PLEX which accomplishes much of what Roon does, at least from an organizational standpoint, if one can find a way to incorporate it in the home, which is more limited in scope to what Roon can achieve overall (but again Roon is at a much higher price and a much higher hardware capability requirement).

A Roon Nucleus can do everything everyone wants, but needless to say it’s a substantial outlay of dollars to achieve, and from what I understand (from many reports) you still may run into plenty of hiccups that may need to be addressed whilst ironing everything out; you are, after all now dealing with synchronized streams to a large variety of endpoints using varied interfaces that Roon accesses. And again (this just doesn’t go away) the cash outlay for either turn-key Roon servers (Nucleus, Nucleus+) or building your own with hardware strong enough to run it well, in addition to the subscription cost (be in time-limited or lifetime) is surely no small amount and in some ways places you in a similar situation as all other options: you now have a mix of Roon capable endpoints, but effectively the crux of your entire digital streaming life is tied to Roon and its ability to deliver, as well as work within the API parameters of the streaming services (Spotify, etc) from which it gets content. (note: this is all academic and only my interpretation based on a not insignificant amount of time I’ve spent reading and speaking with Roon users, but nonetheless is not first-hand experience.)

R

Ralpfocus

Prodigy III

I am with chickentender's first paragraph Sonos was (and I am sure this is true for many owners) bought for simplicity of use, multi room in sync along with great audio quality. So the way forward for people like me has to be a single evnironment. So whilst many of these ideas are fascinating, and in truth if it was just me in the house well… but they are not for me.

And this is sad because currently it looks like my pragmatic way forward is to live with legacy and not buying any more Sonos after May ( maybe later depending upon the solution Sonos finally deliver) and, by the time I do have to think of replacement there could be significant alternatives to Sonos out there.

There are solutions that I believe Sonos could implement but whether they see the business case for doing so…..

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