The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
January 23, 2020
570 replies
22878 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

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K

KumarAuthor

The scenario - As I have legacy products that I wish to retain in May and some modern products that I want to continue to work with the legacy products I put my system into legacy mode.

The questions are

Can I expect to be able to add any of the existing product set to a legacy environment. Irrespective of the release of software/firmware that the product is manufactured with or for that matter the date it is manufactured?

Since Sonos are committed to supporting a product for at least 5 years after end of manufacture is the legacy environment effectively good for at least 5 years after the demise of the last of the current product set? (Subject to changes in streaming services APIs)

Even if Sonos bring out a new product for which they they cannot or will not create a legacy date software/firmware version will all other current (April 2020) products still be able to join a Legacy environment?

If in another n (lets be optimistic 10) years I find that my legacy components (which will probably have increased by then) have all reached the end of their useful life will it be simple to come out of legacy mode?

Is it realistic to have the expectation that Sonos will attempt to make changes to the legacy streaming APIs if required?

The understanding is that any new features made available over the next few years may not be available in a legacy environment.

Given that Ryan and co will be snowed in, my attempt at responses:

If by existing you mean existing with you just now, or what you will buy till May - yes.
No, because for such products that have been identified as legacy, 5 years have passed.
Yes, as long as these are added before getting updated in some way to a post legacy version. There is some confusion around this, with some contradicting this by suggesting that the version can be rolled back to enable them to also join.
Yes, but only with such products that can be brought to the level of the software then prevailing.
Yes, because the word “attempt” can mean anything. I suppose they will do this as long as there is the memory for this and as long as it isn't too much of a hassle. Plus, this will go in a queue and may not get the best treatment there. Prepare to either then switch services, or resort to the Line In jacks.
Instead of the words “may not” say “will not”. And there are no legitimate grounds to complain about that, IMO.

Ken_Griffiths

The scenario - As I have legacy products that I wish to retain in May and some modern products that I want to continue to work with the legacy products I put my system into legacy mode.

The questions are

Can I expect to be able to add any of the existing product set to a legacy environment. Irrespective of the release of software/firmware that the product is manufactured with or for that matter the date it is manufactured?

Kumar,

These would have perhaps been my answers to Ralpfocus, based on my current personal thoughts of trying to look at things ahead… all are guesswork of course. I thought you could maybe use them as a comparison to your own thoughts...

I'm willing to guess that the actual released Sonos hardware, referred to as a ‘modern’ device, at the time the system-split occurs, between legacy and modern, will all be able to be used in either type of system, but that any new products, such as perhaps a new Play:3 (gen2) Speaker (just as an example) would be released just for the 'modern' system only and not install on a legacy system. I imagine you would have either two separate areas in the one Sonos App, or maybe an entirely separate App to control each system. Presumably the detail will follow between now and May, I guess?

Since Sonos are committed to supporting a product for at least 5 years after end of manufacture is the legacy environment effectively good for at least 5 years after the demise of the last of the current product set? (Subject to changes in streaming services APIs)

Even if Sonos bring out a new product for which they they cannot or will not create a legacy date software/firmware version will all other current (April 2020) products still be able to join a Legacy environment?

I think any new Sonos product will be excluded from legacy.. I think Sonos costs would be too high to keep testing things for both type of system and why hold-back the new hardware with what will likely become old out-dated software, particularly as the months and years pass-by?

If in another n (lets be optimistic 10) years I find that my legacy components (which will probably have increased by then) have all reached the end of their useful life will it be simple to come out of legacy mode?

I would imagine that in another 10 years a good many modern devices you own today will have become legacy products themselves by then, the Play:1 Speakers for example, particularly if the user has chosen not to buy any further Sonos products,. Another 10 years on top of things now, is a rather long time in my book. I would not expect that type of lengthy customer support from any manufacturer.

Is it realistic to have the expectation that Sonos will attempt to make changes to the legacy streaming APIs if required?

The understanding is that any new features made available over the next few years may not be available in a legacy environment.

If changes are reasonably straight forward and can be done within the available hardware limitations, then I’m sure Sonos will do its absolute best to keep all aspects of the legacy system up and running for as long as is practicable, but time constraints on development and costs, of course, will have to be assessed as each ‘required change’ arises. Nothing is forever. I’m sure that the customer experience will be at the heart of such a decision. We also have to remember that third parties will be involved in some of the service changes and it may be down to their 'willingness' to cooperate with some of the changes too.

K

KumarAuthor

I think any new product will be excluded from legacy..

Ken, Sonos is fully entitled to do that, if by that you mean that legacy systems will not get new product features. Where I remain fuzzy is whether post May purchases of modern products can be added to a legacy system, albeit constrained by features available to all products, legacy or modern, that are sitting on that system. Ryan has left the waters around that bit in a muddy state. That they won't get new features is very clear. Unless used in a split system.

And the above quote isn't from me, it’s from you: this quoting thing in replies continues to fox me.

Ken_Griffiths

Kumar,

As mentioned we can only speculate until the detail is published...

Just to perhaps clarify my own comments, my thoughts here are that 'no new features' and 'no new hardware'either, will be able to be added to a legacy system… so if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

Edit: by the way I have gone back and bolded my replies in my previous post so you csn quickly pick out the things I mentioned.(hope that assists).👍

pwt

Virtuoso

Kumar,

As mentioned we can only speculate until the detail is published...

Just to perhaps clarify my own comments, my thoughts here are that 'no new features' and 'no new hardware'either, will be able to be added to a legacy system… so if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

I’d say you’re correct about not getting new features for legacy systems as Sonos has stated, but I think it’s possible one may be able to add new hardware variants to legacy systems. There will likely be a separate, mostly frozen, Sonos app to control legacy environments, which will support adding devices and it may be quite possible for new hardware variants to be included in this, provided they make sense in a legacy environment. It’s certainly technically possible.

As you say, as of now, this is speculation. Sonos is trying to minimise its engineering costs while not irreparably damaging its reputation.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port | Era 300

K

KumarAuthor

if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

I would agree with you on both counts but cannot do so unreservedly, because of the fuzziness I have referred to earlier around the first one. In one of those fuzzy states, the gen 3 added to the legacy system would still not get the advanced features. That would need a split system, or a single system with no legacy products.

On this specific subject, my head hurts now whenever I delve into its convolutions.

PS: Schrodinger’s Cat, anyone?:-)

Ken_Griffiths

pwt,

The reason I think new hardware may not be included in modern is that …

On install, the Sonos software searches, finds and identifies the device prior to setup… minor perhaps, but it does mean a software update to all devices to include the new product and any specific requirements that hardware needs to then correctly integrate with all other Sonos devices.
I think the new modern hardware will be able to operate more quickly/faster with more-bandwidth, memory and processing speed than the old legacy stuff and I can see that speed/bandwidth being necessary for newer products ...and Sonos will not want to reduce that experience with their latest innovations. I can even see the hardware moving higher up the ladder on the 802.11 WiFi standard as things switchover to 802.11ax for home WiFi in the next couple of years.
I think Sonos will want to encourage the customer base to move to a modern system and attract them to that type of system for a much-improved customer experience, rather than have the customer think that very little has changed with any of their newer devices. I can see Atmos Music on the horizon (now available on Amazon/Tidal) and maybe Dolby Digital Plus with Atmos streaming movie services.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head. I’m sure there are others, if I were to think a little deeper, I’m sure there are other valid reasons, but equally I accept there must be some counter-arguments here too.

A

andy_120

Enthusiast II

I posted this in the other thread but came across this one so would post hear

the sonos decision has far more reaching consequences than a product brand dying. Sonos has highlighted to me that this can happen to any of these type of systems and many alternatives have been suggested. Sonos should really get together with all the major streaming services and devise a standard where software updates would only be needed to fix system bugs and stop playing catchup with the streaming services. It's in the intrest of these services as well because if the buying public sees the pitfalls of buying such devices to stream there music and that device becomes obsolete and does not run that streaming service again, the streaming service revenue will fall and the whole industry will most likely fail because the paying public will see the whole streaming concept as a flawed concept. Even before this has happened vynal is making a come back as well as cassette tape even. I'm sure the record industry would be affected as well as lost revenue in record sale as someone streaming will be more likely to listen to something different as opposed to actually taking a risk to buy the physical one.

Ken_Griffiths

I posted this in the other thread but came across this one so would post hear

the sonos decision has far more reaching consequences than a product brand dying. Sonos has highlighted to me that this can happen to any of these type of systems and many alternatives have been suggested. Sonos should really get together with all the major streaming services and devise a standard where software updates would only be needed to fix system bugs and stop playing catchup with the streaming services. It's in the intrest of these services as well because if the buying public sees the pitfalls of buying such devices to stream there music and that device becomes obsolete and does not run that streaming service again, the streaming service revenue will fall and the whole industry will most likely fail because the paying public will see the whole streaming concept as a flawed concept. Even before this has happened vynal is making a come back as well as cassette tape even. I'm sure the record industry would be affected as well as lost revenue in record sale as someone streaming will be more likely to listen to something different as opposed to actually taking a risk to buy the physical one.

I just personally see things differently ...and to standstill too long now would mean to stifle any technological innovation… we would still be using vhs video tapes if we all adopted a legacy system. I’m sorry, but you can keep your vinyl and audio cassette tapes.. I’m well past those things. At least let those that want to, race ahead. Thinking about it, Sonos is providing us here with the opportunity to standstill or innovate. So it’s perhaps the best announcement we ALL could have wished for anyway.🤔

S

Sgm198

Lyricist III

Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

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