The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
January 23, 2020
570 replies
22877 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

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chickentender

In the quoted case, what will happen after May, if the lock down is removed? Will the system jumped to the legacy version, thereby bricking the CR100s? If it does, can it be taken back to 8.4?
This is relevant to my situation that is a lot more common, with 3 legacy zones and 3 modern ones on the latest version. What will happen after May if all 3 legacy zones were to be in powered down state, and unwittingly I invoke an update that then gets applied to the 3 modern zones? The legacy zones would then be unreachable, correct? In that case, if I was willing to live with a split system, would that be possible? How?
In the above case, if I did not want a split system, would it be possible to reverse the update and go back to one legacy system of 6 zones?
And a final question, though not likely to apply to me - if I wanted to add a new product in May 2021, could I add that to the legacy system on the legacy version and run it as a 7 zone system?

Perhaps these questions have been answered, but while I understand more about this than many, I understand a lot less that the few who fully do so, so indulge me.

These are all excellent questions; each one interests me too… I’m afraid we can’t yet get definitive answers for them (if going by the “we’ll have more to share in May” statements) but I'd wager some here can speculate on with some accuracy.

K

KumarAuthor

@chickentender : I thought that the May sharing would be related to workflows and details, not answers to these simple questions. If just the answers are not known to Sonos, that is an unpleasant shock because it suggests that Sonos isn't conceptually ready for the change. The Brexit analogy looks even more apt then.

Anyway, I am happy to wait for the answers, there is no hurry. As long as each one is definitively answered a few weeks before the event. I don't need to read any speculation about what the answers could be, because that just muddies the waters even more.

C

Cisume

Enthusiast II

I wish they would offer a firmware version just with the basic functions of the device

plus playing a sound file from a given path and playing a stream.

All this in the current already supported formats.

This would make it flexible, easy to write 3rd party applications and a way to remove

the file collection limit. This would open so many doors even home automation.

C

coupster

Sorry for the possibly stupid question, but did I miss something? There’s a fair amount of references here to a “Legacy Software Version”. In a quick rescan of the official communiques I can find only references to a “Legacy Mode”. My translation of that is that come May when “Legacy Mode” is implemented, those older hardware units affected will no longer receive software updates leaving them operating at whatever version they are running at that time. There will be no change. So if you’re running 10.6 (or whatever) on the day of the change you will still be running 10.6 from that point forward. SONOS won’t be working on or releasing a “Legacy Software Version”, So in theory, if you unlock your 8.4 system, it will remain there and your CR100s will be unaffected. However with wiggle terms of bug fixes and security updates, I won't be unlocking my system ever. I locked my system at 7.4 for my reasons and don’t want to change for anybody else’s reasons.

This is why I suggested SONOS give us access to all older versions of the firmware and controllers, as well as implementing a way to flash the units locally. In that way I can buy a new Port and flash it to 7.4 and add it to my existing system to replace my 10 year old Connect. Otherwise my installation will slowly self destruct as units suffer hardware failures. And to further reiterate, this is all with the understanding that SONOS will not support this implementation, I am on my own. SONOS is only providing me with access to the needed software and a tool to flash the unit locallly.

chickentender

Sorry for the possibly stupid question, but did I miss something? There’s a fair amount of references here to a “Legacy Software Version”. In a quick rescan of the official communiques I can find only references to a “Legacy Mode”. My translation of that is that come May when “Legacy Mode” is implemented, those older hardware units affected will no longer receive software updates leaving them operating at whatever version they are running at that time. There will be no change. So if you’re running 10.6 (or whatever) on the day of the change you will still be running 10.6 from that point forward. SONOS won’t be working on or releasing a “Legacy Software Version”, So in theory, if you unlock your 8.4 system, it will remain there and your CR100s will be unaffected. However with wiggle terms of bug fixes and security updates, I won't be unlocking my system ever. I locked my system at 7.4 for my reasons and don’t want to change for anybody else’s reasons.

This is why I suggested SONOS give us access to all older versions of the firmware and controllers, as well as implementing a way to flash the units locally. In that way I can buy a new Port and flash it to 7.4 and add it to my existing system to replace my 10 year old Connect. Otherwise my installation will slowly self destruct as units suffer hardware failures. And to further reiterate, this is all with the understanding that SONOS will not support this implementation, I am on my own. SONOS is only providing me with access to the needed software and a tool to flash the unit locallly.

Well, I think there’s simply a fair amount of speculation going on with a hinted mix of each individual’s (here) wouldn’t-it-be-nice-if’s and what-makes-sense-would-be’s. Being given the option of many available firmware choices as you’ve mentioned before would be of huge benefit. The latter part of what you’re saying now is also speculation/suggestion too.

I admit (I’ve never bothered to investigate) I do not know (is it known?) precisely how each added device has, historically, updated to the latest software/firmware version when it is added to user’s network. My assumption was always simply that it was brought online, contacted Sonos during the setup process whilst being added to an existing network (or alone if that’s the case) and received that latest firmware. But I don’t know if that is the case. I'm genuinely asking if that’s already known, how the initial firmware update proceeds. Does it even come with a factory version that’s capable of operating without the update (It’s been at least 2 or 3 years since I added new device), or must it be loaded at the onset. And, in either case is it possible it can be loaded from other devices on the network it finds, or simply from the controller version present? (I’m still assuming not, but this opens many doors/questions: choosing version at the controller level, maintaining version on the user legacy network, etc.).

In any case, there is (or rather will be) a legacy software/firmware version to be maintained and updated by Sonos, apart from the current/modern build; one thing that has been implicitly stated (I’ve seen several time mentioned from Sonos staff) is that newly purchased devices will in fact be able to be joined to legacy networks. If that is the case there is a legacy software version that must come from somewhere (and so it stand to reason it could be possible for Sonos to modify that version based on community input from legacy users), unless of course it is the one which would be factory-loaded before shipping… but honestly that doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. Maybe it does however.
Again… questions.

C

Cisume

Enthusiast II

I admit (I’ve never bothered to investigate) I do not know (is it known?) precisely how each added device has, historically, updated to the latest software/firmware version when it is added to user’s network. My assumption was always simply that it was brought online, contacted Sonos during the setup process whilst being added to an existing network (or alone if that’s the case) and received that latest firmware. But I don’t know if that is the case. I'm genuinely asking if that’s already known, how the initial firmware update proceeds. Does it even come with a factory version that’s capable of operating without the update (It’s been at least 2 or 3 years since I added new device), or must it be loaded at the onset. And, in either case is it possible it can be loaded from other devices on the network it finds, or simply from the controller version present? (I’m still assuming not, but this opens many doors/questions: choosing version at the controller level, maintaining version on the user legacy network, etc.).

At the beginning you added players without any SONOS interference to your system. You went to their website downloaded the PC/Mac controller install and everything was managed locally. Their might been an option to register but if so it was not required. A few weeks ago I added a ZP100 I forgot about new in the packaging. Firmware version 2.xx.

here you can see how it used to be :

SONOS 2005 Support

J

Jeeves

Enthusiast II

I’m on locked-down v8.4 to preserve the use of my 5 or 6 remaining CR100s - each costing more than a netbook when i bought them.

Is it too much to ask that we continue to use our systems the way we used to without fear of the software perpetually trying to update itself.

As long as you stay in locked down mode, you should not even notice the Brexit except in places like this.

But that leads me to more questions, having only partially understood the recent discussions on this thread.

In the quoted case, what will happen after May, if the lock down is removed? Will the system jumped to the legacy version, thereby bricking the CR100s? If it does, can it be taken back to 8.4?
This is relevant to my situation that is a lot more common, with 3 legacy zones and 3 modern ones on the latest version. What will happen after May if all 3 legacy zones were to be in powered down state, and unwittingly I invoke an update that then gets applied to the 3 modern zones? The legacy zones would then be unreachable, correct? In that case, if I was willing to live with a split system, would that be possible? How?
In the above case, if I did not want a split system, would it be possible to reverse the update and go back to one legacy system of 6 zones?
And a final question, though not likely to apply to me - if I wanted to add a new product in May 2021, could I add that to the legacy system on the legacy version and run it as a 7 zone system?

Perhaps these questions have been answered, but while I understand more about this than many, I understand a lot less that the few who fully do so, so indulge me.

Thanks Kumar. You’ve succinctly distilled the implicit questions in my late night ramblings - particularly points 1 and 4.

My CR100s are clearly what has made me stay at v8.4 and it’s almost become a personal challenge to nurse them to the end of their extended lives in defiance of Sonos otherwise trying to kill them off. (I’ve just remembered that my 6th one is on life support permanently plugged in in my garage).

I had planned at some stage to reunite my systems on a common software version once the CR100s eventually died (possibly to populate my kids’ first homes with excess devices), but this glimmer of hope for unification and stability for the future is not as clear in my mind as i had naively hoped. (Korea anyone? :laughing: )

For anyone considering Bluesound, I can only reccommend it 100% for integration with Sonos. I bought it primarily as a ripping NAS but was accidentally supplied with the 2i version of their Vault NAS instead of the older Vault 2. I can use it in isolation through some AptX HD headphones late at night and can also feed bluetooth sources into it to play throughout that Sonos system. The app is really comprehensive and there’s now a remote control too. In fact the only negative is not being able to install Plex server software on it. BUT Sonos may be relieved to hear that I’ve no plans or need to add any more BlueSound kit to my setup.

18 zones, 29 devices and counting

K

KumarAuthor

My CR100s are clearly what has made me stay at v8.4 and it’s almost become a personal challenge to nurse them to the end of their extended lives in defiance of Sonos otherwise trying to kill them off. (I’ve just remembered that my 6th one is on life support permanently plugged in in my garage).

I had planned at some stage to reunite my systems on a common software version once the CR100s eventually died (possibly to populate my kids’ first homes with excess devices), but this glimmer of hope for unification and stability for the future is not as clear in my mind as i had naively hoped. (Korea anyone? :laughing: )

I think the first part is very admirable and to be imitated by anyone concerned about the planet; I never had Cr100 or 200, both were before I started with Sonos in 2011, but I felt the same way about my beloved little Sonos Dock that I let go only reluctantly, and that only because the workarounds for it had become simple by the time it was killed. And now I feel exactly the same way about my two Connect Amps/Connect. I refuse to let them be prematurely killed off and sent to a landfill - and remember that in India we don't even have decent landfills. And, perhaps equally importantly, I cannot afford replacements from the Sonos line up.

Your hope too isn't naive and is achievable I now believe, with some workarounds. But the problem you have is that in addition to the CR units, you now also have to wait for more hardware - the legacy products, if you have any - to also die. Seeing the build quality of Sonos kit, that may be years.

chickentender

For anyone considering Bluesound, I can only reccommend it 100% for integration with Sonos. I bought it primarily as a ripping NAS but was accidentally supplied with the 2i version of their Vault NAS instead of the older Vault 2. I can use it in isolation through some AptX HD headphones late at night and can also feed bluetooth sources into it to play throughout that Sonos system. The app is really comprehensive and there’s now a remote control too. In fact the only negative is not being able to install Plex server software on it. BUT Sonos may be relieved to hear that I’ve no plans or need to add any more BlueSound kit to my setup.

This just had me checkout my cart that the Node 2i’s been sitting in for several days. Very similar to my application (except I serve quite a bit from my PLEX which is Synology installed). Right before reading you post here I was elsewhere reading it was IR capable, shouldn’t have a problem mapping my LG remote the Blueos IR options from what I can tell. All that was enough to say enough’s enough. :) (and no plans here to move beyond the Node personally either. It’s modular from here on out.)

K

KumarAuthor

@chickentender and others: I admire the lateral moves that you guys are inventing to move around this situation. Most of it, I will have no clue how to achieve, and of course I don't grudge you that.

But I can't help thinking that even to implement the simple kind of plug and play solution I am looking at, how much of the user base that is out there will have the knowledge and guidance to implement - folks that come to online discussions are just a very small percentage of the base.

Given that, I sense a May tsunami that won't abate in a hurry as things start rolling out.

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