Sonos and Hifi compatibilty

T
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Hi,

Since Tidal offer up to 9216 kbps audio quality streaming with the premium Hifi Plus membership, are you aware that sonos 3rd generation speakers can supports that high quality with multi-rooms without any unsync issues? I still have unsync issues always with hifi stream (without ethernet wired speakers and multi-room only) and i would like to know if the firmware have solved this issue, or maybe this is just that sonos speakers are not capable to handle this high song quality with multi-rooms… I have read couple years ago on sonos specs that the device can handle up to 1400 kbps if i remember but i don’t find the info anymore.

 

Btw i have fast internet 1000 mbts speed and premium wifi Orbi Wifi with satellite device connected to my modem in bridge mode. I do not have interference because i do not have any issues with my cameras, chromecast, xbox console, or any others devices at home… Last year i tried everytings from reset all my devices and tried every others channels available without any succes. I can make and send you a video link if you want to see the issue itself but i think that i well explained the problem.

 

Do you believe that is a hardware issue?

 

If you asking me i see that sonos can handle 24 bits with 48kHz maximum so if i convert this 24bits 48kHz = 2,304 Kbps max! I cannot understand that sonos offer hifi streamers like Deezer and Tidal services since sonos devices cannot handle 9216 kpbs at all without any warning messages or notifications to aware users… 

 

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25 replies

T
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I had the time to read people on the community and i found easily at least 6 topics of people describing my problem 100 % exactly in details. So i can remove a hardware issue on my checklist.Sadly, after at least 1 hour or reading i understand that maybe sonos are just not capable to perform well without ethernet cable for hifi music on multi devices.

If the service bitrate is high enough, it can cause sync (with dropouts) errors on some (or all) of the members in a large group because the group coordinator's wireless card cannot accommodate a high bitrate multiplied by the number of grouped players and result of lack of buffer.

As being said sonos services as tidal and deezer should be more optimized to fit to the sonos devices specs capabilities and not be overwhelmed like this.

 

Maybe adding a bitrate preset on the next app update? @Jeff S @Simon B 

ratty

Sonos has always stuck to the line that it won’t support any content with a sampling rate higher than 48kHz. This has been the case since 2005. 

If you really want to use higher sampling rates from selected services (presumably delivered to a suitable third party DAC) I suggest you look outside Sonos.  

 

BTW both the gentlemen you @mentioned no longer work for Sonos, as you’d find if you followed the links to their profiles. 

T
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@ratty I never asked for an higher rate than 48kHZ.

ratty

@ratty I never asked for an higher rate than 48kHZ.

I thought you did. What do the higher bitrates, e.g. 9216 kbps from Tidal, imply? 24 bits x 192 kHz x 2 channels = 9216 kbps

T
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@ratty maybe you should read more carefuly what i said. I never asked a higher bitrate i asked for a better compatibility with third party services.

ratty

Well in truth I did try to figure out your initial post yesterday evening, and I couldn’t grasp the point you were trying to make. Sonos is already compatible with the services in question. It simply requests a format -- bit depth, sampling rate -- which it does support, i.e. nothing over 48kHz. 

T
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@ratty This is why i asked to the sonos team to optimize the fact that hifi plus streaming services should be locked to the maximum capability of sonos devices. This look like not the case and this is why issues comes in.

 

And unlock it for those who want to ethernet cables their devices. This is just an idea.

ratty

So you are asking for higher sampling rates to be supported?

As you have already noted, 24 bits x 48 kHz x 2 channels = 2304 kbps. Bit rates above that -- you cited 9216 kbps -- imply sampling rates greater than 48 kHz.

It doesn’t matter how the Sonos player is connected -- wired or wireless -- it will still only request up to 48 kHz content from the service. It doesn’t -- and possibly won’t ever -- support sampling rates greater than 48 kHz internally. 

T
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Even at 24 bits 48kHz its do not works well on multi devices without ethernet cable. I believe that is the main reason off all topics of unsync issue of the community. Maybe a hardware upgrade for a 4th generation? I don't know... wireless technology is extremely unstable in all kind of systems. Since all streaming app make the step for the hi res, with dolby, 360 and master records i don't believe that help a lot. Just my opinion.

ratty

Sonos works fine with 24/48 wirelessly, unless perhaps there are a lot of players grouped and the wireless bandwidth is constrained, whether due to interference, distance, or the legacy of SonosNet.

With an increasing tendency for Sonos users to run systems on WiFi meshes, and at 5GHz, such wireless issues can be resolved anyway. My system of course started out on SonosNet back in 2007. Today it runs much better on a 5GHz WiFi mesh. 

T
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I have seen some improvement on 5ghz mesh but still have 2 to 5 secs of dropouts at the begining of songs. If the bitrate remains the same when wired then the buffer is maybe more well handle.

N
Userlevel 7
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@ratty This is why i asked to the sonos team to optimize the fact that hifi plus streaming services should be locked to the maximum capability of sonos devices. This look like not the case and this is why issues comes in.

 

And unlock it for those who want to ethernet cables their devices. This is just an idea.

The most recent products that Sonos has released- the Era 100 and 300 - are wifi only by default. You can buy an adapter to add Ethernet should you require it. 
 

I may be wrong, but my conclusion from this is that Sonos are unlikely to be delivering what you’re asking for - they see the improvements in wifi technology as an adequate delivery mechanism for streamed source to their products. 
 

If so, @Thewizard2000, you should maybe consider a move to a different manufacturer. 

ratty

Depending on the service there can be a heavy burst of traffic at the start of a track as the Sonos player buffers a substantial amount of data. I know from experience that Deezer does this. I’ve no idea about Tidal as I would never go near MQA.

It sounds like your wireless network is not keeping up. For the Sonos units on WiFi you can at least check the signal strength from the local AP via the room settings in the controller.  

T
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Everythings is check on my wifi side also itsna brand new. So if it works perfecly fine on your side with hifi res and more than 5 devices on wireless then this is definitly an hardware issue. Thank you 

ratty

One further point: if “compatibility with Sonos” means adjusting the bitrate down from 16/44 or 24/48 when the connection simply can’t keep up, then the player already does this on certain services. Amazon Music, for example, will fall back to MP3/320.

 

And apologies for initially assuming you were demanding an increase in the bitrate support, which is what the vast majority request, rather than a decrease. 

ratty

Everythings is check on my wifi side also itsna brand new. So if it works perfecly fine on your side with hifi res and more than 5 devices on wireless then this is definitly an hardware issue. Thank you 

It’ll be a network problem. After you encounter dropouts at the start of a track then submit a Sonos system diagnostic, note the number and contact Support. Maybe they can help. 

T
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I confirm that it do not fall back with Tidal because i already force it manualy on tidal app without changes. It look like sonos keep it on default. Never tested with amazon though.

ratty

The bitrate settings on the native apps don’t affect Sonos.  

On the face of it you should have more than sufficient bandwidth on your Orbi system for 24/48, though some have reported issues between Sonos and Orbi. See what Sonos Support say anyway.

And sorry again for my misunderstanding about which direction you wanted to take your bitrates.

T
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No problem thank you for the help!

T
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@ratty If sonos modulate and fall back by itself to the correct bitrate that it can handle according to the source then the only problem should be the wireless hardware capacities limitations inside the device because everythings works well on wired ethernet cables. As you said, if it would be a bitrate problem it would happen wired or wireless. I’ll make the follow up with the sonos dev team.

Btw what is the services/plans that you personally use for hifi music and how many devices you have?

ratty

The only ‘wireless hardware capacities limitations’ Sonos devices have are those inherent in the WiFi hardware tech supported. So old devices are limited to 802.11g (as with SonosNet), whereas the latest support 802.11ax. 

The adaptive bitrate Amazon Music behaviour is discussed at https://tech-blog.sonos.com/posts/happy-music-streaming-with-mpeg-dash/

I currently have about 15 Sonos devices connected, with Amazon Music and Qobuz services installed.

T
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The first two goals pose inherent trade-offs in the design of an ABR algorithm. If the algorithm is too conservative, it would cause no re-buffering events, but end up delivering poor-quality contents. In other words, such an algorithm would always select the lowest bitrate stream in order to avoid buffering. If the algorithm is too aggressive however, it would deliver the best-quality content, but likely trigger re-buffering events. That is, such an algorithm would always select the highest bit rate stream in order to deliver the best quality media.

Therefore, the core design principle around an ABR algorithm is how to make a good trade-off between the conflicting user experience and best media quality goals. A good algorithm will avoid buffering events while maximizing the quality of the delivered media. There are numerous proposals to solve this challenge and they can be categorized into two approaches [9]. The first is a throughput or rate-based approach where the ABR algorithm maintains a model for throughput, estimates an available bandwidth, and adapts the bitrate based on the changes. The second is a buffer-based approach where the ABR algorithm adapts the bitrate based on the change of playback buffer occupancy.

Very interresting article, it looks like my problem is directly linked to the algorithm and the buffer. Maybe he's not modulating in time. It would be interesting to know if a 4th generation of sonos which will accept a higher bitrate according to the new industry standards would be possible or it is the wifi technology which is simply limited.

Thank you for the article.

ratty

 

Very interresting article, it looks like my problem is directly linked to the algorithm and the buffer. Maybe he's not modulating in time.

To my knowledge this adaptive technique is only applied to Amazon Music for now, not Deezer or Tidal. And it does ‘modulate in time’ to lower the format/bitrate if it suspects the bandwidth is choked. The ‘HD’ flag drops without the music being interrupted. 

Again, it sounds like you have a local network issue. Ask Sonos Support for their insight. 

buzz

Thewizard2000,

Submit a diagnostic within about 10min of an event and log the confirmation number. Network issues, if any, will leave tracks. Follow up with support. We don’t have access to diagnostic data here. Sometimes SONOS Support will reply here, but don’t count on this.

T
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@ratty Reply from sonos level 2...

 

According to all the notes, troubleshooting steps, and equipment provided for your system, we have confirmed the wireless environment does not support the players to play high bitrate content like this. Therefore, this will redirect us to the best workaround for your system, which is Sonosnet (hard-wiring most of the products you can until the problem is fix).

I know it is not what you expected, however, this is the best option for Hi-fi service to work properly.

If you have any additional questions or if there is anything else I can assist you with, feel free to reach out by replying to this email and I’ll be happy to help.

Regards, 

Karina P
Sonos   |   Customer Experience - Level 2  

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