The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

570 replies

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

I posted this in the other thread but came across this one so would post hear

 

the sonos decision has far more reaching consequences than a product brand dying. Sonos has highlighted to me that this can happen to any of these type of systems and many alternatives have been suggested. Sonos should really get together with all the major streaming services and devise a standard where software updates would only be needed to fix system bugs and stop playing catchup with the streaming services. It's in the intrest of these services as well because if the buying public sees the pitfalls of buying such devices to stream there music and that device becomes obsolete and does not run that streaming service again, the streaming service revenue will fall and the whole industry will most likely fail because the paying public will see the whole streaming concept as a flawed concept. Even before this has happened vynal is making a come back as well as cassette tape even. I'm sure the record industry would be affected as well as lost revenue in record sale as someone streaming will be more likely to listen to something different as opposed to actually taking a risk to buy the physical one.

I just personally see things differently ...and to standstill too long now would mean to stifle any technological innovation… we would still be using vhs video tapes if we all adopted a legacy system. I’m sorry, but you can keep your vinyl and audio cassette tapes.. I’m well past those things. At least let those that want to, race ahead. Thinking about it, Sonos is providing us here with the opportunity to standstill or innovate. So it’s perhaps the best announcement we ALL could have wished for anyway.🤔 

I'm not against progress, all I'm trying to say if I buy any particular system to stream that all these systems are open to the same issue sonos has just created. Until such time that the streaming services work more closely with the hardware manufacturers then this situation will keep coming up again and again. I want sonos to succeed but fear they won't be able to unless there is a dramatic change in there current direction, and what a great way to promote a longevity of a product that they could say they work in partnership with a 3rd party company.

Ken_Griffiths

Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to  the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

If roon currently supports streaming to two or more devices now, then I would have thought so, but only time will confirm if that is indeed the case. 

K

Until such time that the streaming services work more closely with the hardware manufacturers then this situation will keep coming up again and again. 

Until then, there is Line In - a physical bridge from smart, rapid obsolescence, cheap streaming modules, to robust audio system components that are built to last, preferably with replaceable parts and after sales service post warranty.

If at all any thing is required to work more closely, it would be something like the old iPod docks, where the iPod slotted neatly into a jack on the dock. 

Come to think of it, even Sonos could invent such a product, that will allow their more expensive audio hardware to work for decades, being built for such service life, with a cheap throw away every three years smart module that slots into it. And please, Sonos, with album art, which is such a cool feature that has always been missing on Sonos.

Where is a patent lawyer when I need one?:-).

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

Thread title: The Sonos Brexit and a pragmatic way past it

Solution:  buy a Raspberry Pi and install LMS + upnpbridge plugin 

 

K

@castalla : I have no clue what that jargon means, and I have no desire to know. I am not a techie and I get nervous just looking at the exposed circuitry in the raspberry. I reckon that a large number of recent additions to the user base are like me.

For those that are not, I am sure this is an excellent option that merits discussions here. 

A
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Just chanced on this add-on which might be of interest to those looking for a solution to attach to their existing amp & utilising a hard wired Zone 2/3.

It has a great review & an add-on like this might be worth considering.

Bluetooth is incorporated into most devices & I think will outlive most of the multi-room options for a fraction of the price & this one seems to have decent connectivity & components.

With the current Sonos debacle I'm now giving this serious consideration to work with Plex which is primarily what I'm using the current Sonos system for anyway.

Volume control & sound tweaking for piped music would be handled directly from my amp manufacturers app, in my case Yamaha with Spotify Connect built in.

Heck, you could even feed it to a line-in legacy Sonos!

The other options in scope if Sonos doesn't come through are Nvidia Shield Pro/Plex via HDMI to amp, or Bluesound Node 2i to amp, but I'm a bit wary of the second option given recent events.

The Bluetooth option not for everyone I'd imagine, but perhaps helpful to some if not built-in to an AV receiver already.

Here's the detail.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b1-bluetooth-music-receiver/

Review here..

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audioengine/b1.htm

Ken_Griffiths

@castalla : I have no clue what that jargon means, and I have no desire to know. I am not a techie and I get nervous just looking at the exposed circuitry in the raspberry. I reckon that a large number of recent additions to the user base are like me.

For those that are not, I am sure this is an excellent option that merits discussions here. 

It’s a piece of obsolete/unsupported media server software.

Twonky is a better supported piece of software IMHO, which will transcode 'on the fly’ or 'in advance' virtually any A/V source to any A/V source. Guess you might say it’s similar to using Plex or Windows Media Server.

S
Userlevel 5
Badge +3

Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to  the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

 

The way I understand it at the moment Roon can do this but I’ve read so much over the past few days I’ve confused myself lol so please don’t take it as gospel from me. I’m interested in Roon because many of the big players Linn, Naim, B&W etc support it so it’s not as standalone as Sonos. I came very close over the weekend to taking the plunge with B&W formation kit because

A it sounds absolutely stunning in a demo I had with just Bluetooth from my phone

B because of Bluetooth, Roon etc it would “hopefully” be more future proof

C my experience of B&W customer support with obsolescence has been excellent in the past with 75% offered off the newer Zeppelin 

 

unfortunately I was caught by my wife drooling over the formation duo like a schoolboy with a found mucky magazine or I fear they’d be getting delivered this week lol.  Like many others here I’m in a holding pattern on Audio gear until things are clearer but this has been a massive wake up call that will shape my future purchases to be more along dumb equipment with a cheaply replaced streamer/encoder rather than reliance on 1 companies whim as I’ve become with Sonos. I’ve also contemplated picking up a cheap gen1 play 5 to stereo pair with another one and worst case just use the line in for the foreseeable.

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

@castalla : I have no clue what that jargon means, and I have no desire to know. I am not a techie and I get nervous just looking at the exposed circuitry in the raspberry. I reckon that a large number of recent additions to the user base are like me.

For those that are not, I am sure this is an excellent option that merits discussions here. 

It’s a piece of obsolete/unsupported media server software.

Twonky is a better supported piece of software IMHO, which will transcode 'on the fly’ or 'in advance' virtually any A/V source to any A/V source. Guess you might say it’s similar to using Plex or Windows Media Server.

Utter rubbish!

Supported by an active user community (who don’t attack anyone who steps ‘out-of-line’)

Obsolete?  Nonsense again - how obsolete is this then - http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.9

Exposed circuitry?  Just buy a 10 USD case.

 

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

After I wrote the first post I discovered that my remaining 3 zones served by play 1 units aren't going to remain modern for much longer, with the play 1 containing a mere 64 mb of memory, just marginally better than the 32 in the units jettisoned at this time. And as opposed to the 1024 mb contained in the One units, so the temptation for Sonos to use this idling hardware by jettisoning the play 1s shortly after May or in the next “news” cycle must be strong.

All the more reason then for me to successfully pursue the approach I have set out in this thread.

This is the first time I’ve seen memory specs for various Sonos bits.  Where did you get this info and any idea how much memory in a 2017 Play 3?

C

I am enjoying the conversation, but another stupid question has been raised in my paranoid noggin.

It has been said here (or least inferred) that if you add a used (maybe new too) unit to an older installation (in my case 7.4), SONOS will install that firmware version to it to provide compatibility and the ability to join the existing installation.  Does anyone have direct personal experience with that actually happening?   I vaguely (very) recall the last time I added a SONOS refurbished unit to my system, the entire installation was upgraded to the latest version (at the time, which is how I ended up at 7.4)  I’ve got an old Play 5 that I’d like to take out of storage but I can’t chance screwing up the existing installation and I haven’t figured out a way to sandbox the process without exposing a unit needed by the existing installation.

They are out to get us, you know.

K

@John76 https://www.facebook.com/Phonos.application/photos/a.915560425121335/2764433836900642/?type=3&theater

I cannot vouch for its correctness, but it sounds ok and ties in what I have heard Sonos staff say.

@coupster As far as I recall, if you add something new, everything will be brought to the latest version.

I suggest waiting for the legacy app and associated workflows to be released by Sonos before any attempts. Even then...no, I still see issues. Get into a PM conversation with @Ryan S at the appropriate time and then do this based on his advice. And then pray.

C

Thanks Kumar.  That’s what I thought and with the amount of misinformation and ‘company-line’ assumptions coming out of this debacle, I’m going to just sit back with my popcorn and watch like I’ve been doing - at times it better than the nightly news.

K

 

Here's the detail.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b1-bluetooth-music-receiver/

Review here..

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audioengine/b1.htm

The review is from 2014, and has been obsoleted by Echo. For a lot less money, get a Echo Dot or Input, and wire it to your line in jacks. In addition to voice, Echo devices can also receive bluetooth music streams from paired devices. You can even leave the mic permanently off and use it this way. I have used mine to convert my desktop Sonos to a computer speaker, connected to my Mac via bluetooth. Via Sonos line in jacks.

K

at times it better than the nightly news.

If you ask me, it’s a full blown soap opera with twists and turns.

Ken_Griffiths

I see the Play:3 has double the memory of the devices earmarked to move into legacy mode.. it ended production July 2018. So by all accounts that Speaker should keep going as s 'modern device' at least until 2023 and then probably some years after that in legacy mode… I think that seems reasonable. Better still if you perhaps first purchased that speaker in July 2011 when it was first released.

M

 

I don’t know the CR200, never had it. But before responding to anything else, I have to stop you at the quoted, because this is something that goes completely against what I know about Sonos. I will have to ask someone else to step in to confirm what you say because according to me, this is impossible, for two versions to coexist.

 


If you look in the CR200 threads, you will find they still function correctly with old 7.4 version software. I’m sure you can find corroboration from other users. In our house we use either the CR200 or the latest Sonos app depending on what phone, tablet or controller is closest.

When an auto update occurs, the CR200 is left alone at version 7.4 and all other components are automatically updated to the latest and greatest. I have been using auto-update since introduction of the feature. Everything works. I am not a techie, I just know it works.

 

And if they do, explain to me how they do and why this is different from what Sonos now says isn't possible.

I can’t explain to you how it works but I, like you, don’t understand why this is any different and assume there is a combination of engineering and marketing issues involved. Just a guess on my part. My personal opinion is that the marketing group at Sonos have simply done a terrible job of rolling this out to the public and much of the angst involved could have been avoided.

 

C

at times it better than the nightly news.

If you ask me, it’s a full blown soap opera with twists and turns.


Come on over to the good ole USA.  Politics is our ever tangling soap opera.  Although ratings have said that more of us are watching the day time soaps than the wailings and knashings of Washington.

K

@Meezer - my request to be explained how this works was not directed at you, if you see what I wrote.

I have alway believed, and in the last few days have had it dinned in to my head that on one system, all Sonos products need to be of the same version. There are people that have held back their entire systems to the older versions necessary for the CR 100 to keep working. So this 200 thing is an anomaly.

Does this mean there is a similar way to get all legacy products to stay on the legacy version, while modern ones keep moving ahead, while on one system? Because if there is, it goes head on against what Sonos and user experts here have said is impossible. In very strong terms. 

Perhaps the 200 can do it because it is a controller. But then why can’t the 100? 

All mystifying is all I can say. But I don't agree with your limiting this debacle to marketing’s doorstep. I hold Spence responsible, along with product management and marketing. This was always too important a subject to be left for just marketing to manage; Sonos has known it was coming a few years ago, so that makes this mismanagement of it to be just as much a mystery.

K

I see the Play:3 has double the memory of the devices earmarked to move into legacy mode.. it ended production July 2018. So by all accounts that Speaker should keep going as s 'modern device' at least until 2023 and then probably some years after that in legacy mode… I think that seems reasonable. Better still if you perhaps first purchased that speaker in July 2011 when it was first released.

I seriously doubt that. Agreed it has double that of the present legacied lot, but this is still nothing compared to 1024 of the latest products. Sonos developers have to have been champing at the bit to use much more than just 64 from that, and I can't see them being restricted to 64 for long now; not with Sonos threatened on so many competitive fronts that unless there are ground breaking innovations very soon, this crisis will be replaced by another one.

But all this is moot if the management of the transition of the present legacy products succeeds and their line in jacks are retained in the system as back ups. Even if the play 3 is then culled in late 2020, why would that be a big deal?

A

It has been said here (or least inferred) that if you add a used (maybe new too) unit to an older installation (in my case 7.4), SONOS will install that firmware version to it to provide compatibility and the ability to join the existing installation.

I haven’t seen that said anywhere by Sonos…. You will be able to add a new device to a legacy system, but no-one has said that the user can choose which version to install. It would be whatever Sonos have as the legacy release at that time…. 

And it may not include newly announced products unless they allow for them in the legacy build...

Ken_Griffiths

It’s sometimes difficult to know if things are mismanaged, or actually 'by design’, perhaps to make the whole world sit-up, watch and take notice. If all turns out well in the end, with the world watching, I would deem that a great success.

There are sometimes some clever folk at the helm in these companies and that’s why they get paid so well.

As with all success though, there will be some casualties, but hopefully they will be kept to a minimum.

Only time will tell.

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

They wont be turning any more devices off, they just may not allow them on the same network as the NEXT GENERATION Software. Everything should just plug along as is.

There is no may about that - it is absolutely confirmed that nex gen Sonos can be in the home along with legacy products only as two separate systems that cannot intersect anywhere. Indeed, if they could do so, that is the end of every legitimate rant, and we can go back to business as usual. Who knows, they may still do it inspite of all the claims by them and their followers that this is not possible. In two days they changed their stance and pledged to keep legacy systems going with present functionality as opposed to the starting position of letting these wither on the vine, untended.

To be honest, anyone with the vision to take a long term/big picture view will understand that having legacy products alive and kicking vigorously even at a frozen functionality, but in the same play pen as nex gen Sonos is a far more substantial testimonial to the uniqueness of Sonos, more than it was before this event, when the claim of Sonos to be so where backward compatibility is concerned hadn’t been truly tested. If it is just a matter of cost, that is an investment that will pay off many times over with future sales from both existing and new owners. If the only reason to not do this is because it is impractical, a visionary leader would work with his team to make it practical. The truly hard part here has already been achieved - to build products that can match their audiophile cousins for longevity.

Instead a myopic view that...getting into rant mode, so I will stop here!

@Kumar 

Sorry, I made a slip with the words which make a huge difference.  I meant to say System not Network. Huge difference. Apologies.


“they just may not allow them on the same System as the NEXT GENERATION Software.”

 

Current SONOS stance is NO, but maybe after all the feedback they change their stance. Personally I can’t see it happening.

It would be Ludicrous if the Legacy and Modern could not coexist on the same network, running on different SONOS system. Come to think of it Wireless may get crowded. ugh.

I agree with your points. They have proven in the past that CR100 / CR200 can happily exist in the system running on older firmware.  It was cumbersome to add my CR100 to the 8.4 System, It required High Level Support to do some trickery during the pairing process. It still functions today. I move to current software and the CR100 is DONE. They decide what components can co-exist and whether they will support it. Once it gets to cumbersome, they drop support.

From their perspective it looks like they decided the ‘mixed system with modern and legacy’ was holding things back and would not be supportable.

I would love to collect a used CR200 for my Legacy SONOS museum but I fear I would not be able to get it connected and working on my version.  Support would understandably, refuse to help.  

I think there will be more clarification about the new Legacy Software and how it will be implemented/delivered in the coming weeks.  I won’t speculate further.

Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
C

My first impression of this announcement was actually positive.

That’’s because my original experience with the Sonos system was negative. I purchased a ZP100 and wanted to use it strictly as a local music player, reading music from a NAS and local android phone. I only turn on the ZP100 occasionally, but EVERY TIME it would not allow me to play music--it claimed there was a software update, and gave me no option to defer. I eventually decided it was a failed experiment and stuffed it in a closet.

Does anyone know what to expect as far as… Will I be able to turn on the ZP100 and just use it? Or will I get constant nags about buying modern equipment, “you are out of support”, etc.?

I fully get that: 1) this player can stream from Internet services, and those [might someday] change their data stream formats thus affecting that feature, and 2) that Sonos, by forcing the updates, will have less contact with end users on tech support issues (force the update rather than field phone calls and tickets and inform the user they need to update), and 3) model the ecosystem so that they can push their new features/spyware without push-back. Really, Sonos should have made the updates optional (No, all attempts to disable checking failed -- many calls to tech support, etc -- perhaps earlier firmware allowed disabling updates, but I came in late in the history and it simply wasn’t an option), with a detailed list of changes so that Internet radio streamers could jump on board if it was important to them.

So, I see this dropping support for legacy equip as a win ONLY if Sonos promises to issue a final firmware that lets me use this device as a local player (and Internet, as long as stations don’t change -- alas, it would take much to design the firmware to use an indexing service), not continually checking in with the mothership, not nagging me to buy new units, not pumping my listening statistics up to their marketing database, etc. I just want a sophisticated, non-evolving, local music system, where I can use it COMPLETELY disconnected from Sonos.com.

A

I just want a sophisticated, non-evolving, local music system, where I can use it COMPLETELY disconnected from Sonos.com.

You have been able to do that for a while… Just get the device stable,then lock it off from updates and the internet (if you don’t want to use external streaming at all). 

Terms & ConditionsCookie settings