The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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chickentender

@Kumar, thanks for the photo of your setup. Can you stream Spotify using an Amazon Echo Show or are you limited to Amazon? 
 

I plan to keep my system on legacy software and see how long things keep working. After that, not sure what I’ll do. Being on a continuous “upgrade” cycle is not appealing. I own a Connect Amp (actually ZP-120), Connect and gen 1 Play 5. I also own 2 new Sonos Amps, a product I really like as I use it with both TVs because I dislike sound bars. We love the ease of use of Sonos. It’s the one piece of tech my wife has no trouble using. I always knew this day would come, but I guess I avoided thinking through the implications. This is a real disaster for Sonos. I’ve used their products for 12 years, but have started looking at other options - a situation I couldn’t have imagined 2 weeks ago. I don’t know how they’ll sell their more expensive products now. I aspired to own a stereo pair of gen 2 Play 5s. I have 1 now, but won’t be buying a companion for it as my current one could be “retired” by Sonos in just 3 years. I also was thinking about 1 more Amp, but that won’t be happening either. Sonos really needs to come up with a solid solution to this, but they don’t have much time. I don’t see how this won’t significantly impact their business. Wondering how much time my 4 Play 1s and my Sub have left.

I’d imagine, as we’ve been discussing, if you’re remaining entirely legacy in your network, you have many years left for all your stuff. If you want a Play:5, look to the used market. I just had an offer accepted for 100 bucks… Quite the bargain. If you’re currently happy with how everything works and aren't aching for some sort of new API enhancement or voice feature, then I reckon you’re good to go. In fact, these legacy system could be far more stable for all of us remaining with them - fewer updates and changes mean fewer opportunities for for a wrench in the works as updates roll out.

K

it does seem however to be gravitating off topic.

This has been on my mind too, after seeing how well everyone here has exerted themselves to avoid rants as well conversations that degenerate into point scoring. All aided in no small way by @Edward R .

It isn't just the off topic thing, that can be addressed in some way at least. But as the days pass the thread just gets more and more unwieldy and more and more repetitive. It is the nature of the beast.

I have no solution to prevent this inevitable outcome. Anyone that does, please step forward.

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 

I am not concerned that the system will stop functioning as it is today and I have all kinds of tools to control the system from third party plugins. I just worry that if things go south at SONOS and somebody decides to turn off the Legacy Software delivery that the end will be very near for the platform.

 

I have no problem with current abilities. I had it locked at the version ?? to be able to use my CR100s for a long time but in a weak moment decided to update because I had tablets laying around which waited for another purpose. Which turned out to be not a great idea. I prefer the legacy devices like the ZP100/ZP120/Connect Amp for their design.and was curious if they block the ability to add those down the road.

K

This gives me hope. But I also knew there had to be a simple solution to this.

I was wanting to buy an amp before this happened and now,...I am more inclined to go old school. I do not need bells and whistles. In fact, I do not want them. I just want music. Music storage, an amp and a controller...hopefully a laptop that can act as the controller  and a phone or some other device like your setup that I can use winamp on. (I despise the sonos software on my laptop)

Adding a turntable and streaming would also be useful. And maybe a wireless play 5 for outside use,

So I have a question, is it best to wait for an amp to come out. Is this kind of thing simple to do or am I just naive. Do you have any suggestions as to a direction to go in, Or wait.

I just have a few play 5s now, and I love them for the sheer quality of sound that comes from them.

 

If you want a similar set up in its concept, go ahead and buy the Sonos amp. Or, if you can find an unbricked one, a used Connect Amp as long as your speakers are able to deliver with the 55 watts that the amp delivers.

But in both cases, the Sonos controller interface is a must. If you despise that as you say, you have to also give up obtaining grouped play for this new zone with the play 5 units.

Wanting music storage in such a system starts getting complicated though. Other than that, it should be quite feasible, although since I don't know winamp I can't offer specifics.

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
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Yes, but that has been the case since 2005 so now same hands around the same balls, what's the difference? Yes, any legacy maintenance plan is and will always be at the mercy of Sonos, but short of throwing out all Sonos hardware what’s the choice? I would say wait till they actually squeeze out even this legacy plan before doing that, don’t do it in anticipation.

The difference is the hardware”s best before date has been set to expire in May.

There is no choice but to ride it out and beg for a software install tool to be delivered before the servers shutdown.

Then we can continue to use the hardware as it is and attempt to keep it all running even after the Servers stop delivering Legacy.  That day will come.

As an early adopter I have got a great deal of use from my 20 plus devices. It has been a great investment that I no longer want to rely on SONOS to keep running.

I will work towards building a backend that does not rely on Cloud Software to keep it running.  MULTI channel amps - wire - speakers, feed it with the disposable stuff for the services.

Like you say, Modular.  It may not be pretty to control but It will expire on my terms.

 

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chickentender

@chickentender @chickentender I get what you suggest about the big three, so good luck with that - not many of us can do what you are doing, and I certainly cannot.

Just a quick summary response to all that. I by no means am not involved in any or all the big-3. It’s merely that for audio purchases (hardware) and streaming interfaces (or even purchasing music) I do not use them. I have an android phone and Google in my house. My wife has an iPhone and Macbook. We both shop with Amazon (far too much - something we’ve been actively trying to scale back). I take privacy measures on various fronts but I also am not uptight about. For me it’s mostly just about giving my direct dollars for devices and services to companies whose business is audio first (Sonos) and not big tech in general. This is why I’ll never go full Google audio, or Amazon echo link etc.. I well understand why many do - it’s cost effective and often works reasonably well.

 

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

@Kumar, thanks for the photo of your setup. Can you stream Spotify using an Amazon Echo Show or are you limited to Amazon? 
 

I plan to keep my system on legacy software and see how long things keep working. After that, not sure what I’ll do. Being on a continuous “upgrade” cycle is not appealing. I own a Connect Amp (actually ZP-120), Connect and gen 1 Play 5. I also own 2 new Sonos Amps, a product I really like as I use it with both TVs because I dislike sound bars. We love the ease of use of Sonos. It’s the one piece of tech my wife has no trouble using. I always knew this day would come, but I guess I avoided thinking through the implications. This is a real disaster for Sonos. I’ve used their products for 12 years, but have started looking at other options - a situation I couldn’t have imagined 2 weeks ago. I don’t know how they’ll sell their more expensive products now. I aspired to own a stereo pair of gen 2 Play 5s. I have 1 now, but won’t be buying a companion for it as my current one could be “retired” by Sonos in just 3 years. I also was thinking about 1 more Amp, but that won’t be happening either. Sonos really needs to come up with a solid solution to this, but they don’t have much time. I don’t see how this won’t significantly impact their business. Wondering how much time my 4 Play 1s and my Sub have left.

I’d imagine, as we’ve been discussing, if you’re remaining entirely legacy in your network, you have many years left for all your stuff. If you want a Play:5, look to the used market. I just had an offer accepted for 100 bucks… Quite the bargain. If you’re currently happy with how everything works and aren't aching for some sort of new API enhancement or voice feature, then I reckon you’re good to go. In fact, these legacy system could be far more stable for all of us remaining with them - fewer updates and changes mean fewer opportunities for for a wrench in the works as updates roll out.


Agreed. Purchase some spares and get them all on the same software and you should be able to carry on for a long time.

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K

The difference is the hardware”s best before date has been set to expire in May.

There is no choice but to ride it out and beg for a software install tool to be delivered before the servers shutdown.

Then we can continue to use the hardware as it is and attempt to keep it all running even after the Servers stop delivering Legacy.  That day will come.

 

 

We can beg till the cows come home, but what then? I would say it is safe to assume that it isn't happening, so what with that assumption in place? Why do some big bang now instead of doing it as/if/when that delivery stops?

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
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I have no problem with current abilities. I had it locked at the version ?? to be able to use my CR100s for a long time but in a weak moment decided to update because I had tablets laying around which waited for another purpose. Which turned out to be not a great idea. I prefer the legacy devices like the ZP100/ZP120/Connect Amp for their design.and was curious if they block the ability to add those down the road.

They wont be turning any more devices off, they just may not allow them on the same network as the NEXT GENERATION Software. Everything should just plug along as is.

Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

 

The difference is the hardware”s best before date has been set to expire in May.

There is no choice but to ride it out and beg for a software install tool to be delivered before the servers shutdown.

Then we can continue to use the hardware as it is and attempt to keep it all running even after the Servers stop delivering Legacy.  That day will come.

 

 

We can beg till the cows come home, but what then? I would say it is safe to assume that it isn't happening, so what with that assumption in place? Why do some big bang now instead of doing it as/if/when that delivery stops?


We can only try. Based on the track record of SONOS, it probably won’t happen, but they have painted themselves in a bit of a corner, so it can’t hurt to bring the topic to attention again.

I won’t be doing any big bang thing here but I know that the clock is now ticking on my current $7000 multi zone audio delivery system.  It would be prudent to plan and budget for a rebuild in then next 3-5 years. The NEXT GENERATION SONOS will be assessed, but I think I will be running more speaker wire this time. I can’t afford to replace my entire system every 5-7years.

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M

I confess to not having read everything/anything on these threads, so pardon any redundancy. 

I have a CR200 that is part of an evolving ten year old multi-component system, with components classified as both legacy and current. The CR200 stopped updating a long time ago and is on software version 7 something. The balance of the system is up to date and on software 10 something. The CR200 works, the legacy products work, the non-legacy products work and the whole kit works together. It is therefore possible to make this happen, Sonos is doing it now. How? I have no clue, but they can and do.

No, I can’t talk to my CR200 but I suspect it does not have much to say. I just want to listen to music throughout the house and if that requires my pushIng a couple of buttons once in a while, I can cope.  I want to keep what I have and enjoy the system as long as possible. If eventually some services either don’t function or deteriorate due to changes by third parties like Spotify or TuneIn, I will deal with it at that point.

By all means Sonos, introduce Play 2.0’s  that won’t function with my current components but will talk to cats and play tracks streamed from the Borg. Have at it, but please leave my existing investment alone.

K

They wont be turning any more devices off, they just may not allow them on the same network as the NEXT GENERATION Software. Everything should just plug along as is.

There is no may about that - it is absolutely confirmed that nex gen Sonos can be in the home along with legacy products only as two separate systems that cannot intersect anywhere. Indeed, if they could do so, that is the end of every legitimate rant, and we can go back to business as usual. Who knows, they may still do it inspite of all the claims by them and their followers that this is not possible. In two days they changed their stance and pledged to keep legacy systems going with present functionality as opposed to the starting position of letting these wither on the vine, untended.

To be honest, anyone with the vision to take a long term/big picture view will understand that having legacy products alive and kicking vigorously even at a frozen functionality, but in the same play pen as nex gen Sonos is a far more substantial testimonial to the uniqueness of Sonos, more than it was before this event, when the claim of Sonos to be so where backward compatibility is concerned hadn’t been truly tested. If it is just a matter of cost, that is an investment that will pay off many times over with future sales from both existing and new owners. If the only reason to not do this is because it is impractical, a visionary leader would work with his team to make it practical. The truly hard part here has already been achieved - to build products that can match their audiophile cousins for longevity.

Instead a myopic view that...getting into rant mode, so I will stop here!

K

 

I have a CR200 that is part of an evolving ten year old multi-component system, with components classified as both legacy and current. The CR200 stopped updating a long time ago and is on software version 7 something. The balance of the system is up to date and on software 10 something. The CR200 works, the legacy products work, the non-legacy products work and the whole kit works together. It is therefore possible to make this happen, Sonos is doing it now. How? I have no clue, but they can and do.

 

I don’t know the CR200, never had it. But before responding to anything else, I have to stop you at the quoted, because this is something that goes completely against what I know about Sonos. I will have to ask someone else to step in to confirm what you say because according to me, this is impossible, for two versions to coexist.

And if they do, explain to me how they do and why this is different from what Sonos now says isn't possible.

K

I prefer the legacy devices like the ZP100/ZP120/Connect Amp for their design.and was curious if they block the ability to add those down the road.

I have not seen this to be said anywhere. Only a Connect Amp made after 2015, once it gets to a version after the legacy version, cannot be added. Of course, it should not have been bricked for recycling for a 30% claim.

So if you have a legacy system mode operating, and you want to add one of the above that are at or before that system version, the dedicated to legacy system app that is promised will allow you to add these products to the legacy system. At any time in the future.

@Ryan S / @Edward R - to please object if I am wrong.

K

Split system warning!

I wrote this on another thread just now and am copying that here, because the warning is very relevant here as well:

Split systems sound good in theory, but will rapidly become very tiresome to operate. I don't see anyone use these for long. The problem is that then the only option will be to go to one system with modern products, and dump the legacy products. Because the modern products won't make it back to any unified system that has legacy products in it.

One therefore needs to be very careful in opting for splits. I anticipate that many won’t, discover this truth too late, and then there will be another firestorm like this one.

PS:In that thread I was advised that I may be jumping the gun; before being given that advice, I had already flagged my response to @Ryan S  for confirmation in the thread where I posted the above. If he disagrees with any of the above - I will post my eating of the above words on this thread.

 

K

 

The scenario  - As I have legacy products that I wish to retain in May and some modern products that I want to continue to work with the legacy products I put my system into legacy mode.

The questions are

Can I expect to be able to add any of the existing product set to a legacy environment. Irrespective of the release of software/firmware that the product is manufactured with or for that matter the date it is manufactured?

Since Sonos are committed to supporting a product for at least 5 years after end of manufacture is the legacy environment effectively good for at least 5 years after the demise of the last of the current product set?    (Subject to changes in streaming services APIs)

Even if Sonos bring out a new product for which they they cannot or will not create a legacy date software/firmware version will all other current (April 2020) products still be able to join a Legacy environment?

If in another n (lets be optimistic 10) years I find that my legacy components (which will probably have increased by then) have all reached the end of their useful life will it be simple to come out of legacy mode?

Is it realistic to have the expectation that Sonos will attempt to make changes to the legacy streaming APIs if required?

The understanding is that any new features made available over the next few years may not be available in a legacy environment.

Given that Ryan and co will be snowed in, my attempt at responses:

  1. If by existing you mean existing with you just now, or what you will buy till May - yes.
  2. No, because for such products that have been identified as legacy, 5 years have passed.
  3. Yes, as long as these are added before getting updated in some way to a post legacy version. There is some confusion around this, with some contradicting this by suggesting that the version can be rolled back to enable them to also join.
  4. Yes, but only with such products that can be brought to the level of the software then prevailing.
  5. Yes, because the word “attempt” can mean anything. I suppose they will do this as long as there is the memory for this and as long as it isn't too much of a hassle. Plus, this will go in a queue and may not get the best treatment there. Prepare to either then switch services, or resort to the Line In jacks.
  6. Instead of the words “may not” say “will not”. And there are no legitimate grounds to complain about that, IMO.
Ken_Griffiths

 

The scenario  - As I have legacy products that I wish to retain in May and some modern products that I want to continue to work with the legacy products I put my system into legacy mode.

The questions are

Can I expect to be able to add any of the existing product set to a legacy environment. Irrespective of the release of software/firmware that the product is manufactured with or for that matter the date it is manufactured?

Kumar,

These would have perhaps been my answers to Ralpfocus, based on my current personal thoughts of trying to look at things ahead… all are  guesswork of course. I thought you could maybe use them as a comparison to your own thoughts...

I'm willing to guess that the actual released Sonos hardware, referred to as a ‘modern’ device, at the time the system-split occurs, between legacy and modern, will all be able to be used in either type of system, but that any new products, such as perhaps a new Play:3 (gen2) Speaker (just as an example) would be released just for the 'modern' system only and not install on a legacy system. I imagine you would have either two separate areas in the one Sonos App, or maybe an entirely separate App to control each system. Presumably the detail will follow between now and May, I guess?

Since Sonos are committed to supporting a product for at least 5 years after end of manufacture is the legacy environment effectively good for at least 5 years after the demise of the last of the current product set?    (Subject to changes in streaming services APIs)

Even if Sonos bring out a new product for which they they cannot or will not create a legacy date software/firmware version will all other current (April 2020) products still be able to join a Legacy environment?

I think any new Sonos product will be excluded from legacy.. I think Sonos costs would be too high to keep testing things for both type of system and why hold-back the new hardware with what will likely become old out-dated software, particularly as the months and years pass-by?

If in another n (lets be optimistic 10) years I find that my legacy components (which will probably have increased by then) have all reached the end of their useful life will it be simple to come out of legacy mode?

I would imagine that in another 10 years a good many modern devices you own today will have become legacy products themselves by then, the Play:1 Speakers for example, particularly if the user has chosen not to buy any further Sonos products,. Another 10 years on top of things now, is a rather long time in my book. I would not expect that type of lengthy customer support from any manufacturer.

Is it realistic to have the expectation that Sonos will attempt to make changes to the legacy streaming APIs if required?

The understanding is that any new features made available over the next few years may not be available in a legacy environment.

If changes are reasonably straight forward and can be done within the available hardware limitations, then I’m sure Sonos will do its absolute best to keep all aspects of the legacy system up and running for as long as is practicable, but time constraints on development and costs, of course, will have to be assessed as each ‘required change’ arises. Nothing is forever. I’m sure that the customer experience will be at the heart of such a decision. We also have to remember that third parties will be involved in some of the service changes and it may be down to their 'willingness' to cooperate with some of the changes too.

 

K

 

 

 

I think any new product will be excluded from legacy.. 

 

Ken, Sonos is fully entitled to do that, if by that you mean that legacy systems will not get new product features. Where I remain fuzzy is whether post May purchases of modern products can be added to a legacy system, albeit constrained by features available to all products, legacy or modern, that are sitting on that system. Ryan has left the waters around that bit in a muddy state. That they won't get new features is very clear. Unless used in a split system.

And the above quote isn't from me, it’s from you: this quoting thing in replies continues to fox me. 

 

Ken_Griffiths

Kumar,

As mentioned we can only speculate until the detail is published...

 

Just to perhaps clarify my own comments, my thoughts here are that 'no new features' and 'no new hardware'either, will be able to be added to a legacy system… so if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

Edit: by the way I have gone back and bolded my replies in my previous post so you csn quickly pick out the things I mentioned.(hope that assists).👍

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

Kumar,

As mentioned we can only speculate until the detail is published...

Just to perhaps clarify my own comments, my thoughts here are that 'no new features' and 'no new hardware'either, will be able to be added to a legacy system… so if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

I’d say you’re correct about not getting new features for legacy systems as Sonos has stated, but I think it’s possible one may be able to add new hardware variants to legacy systems. There will likely be a separate, mostly frozen, Sonos app to control legacy environments, which will support adding devices and it may be quite possible for new hardware variants to be included in this, provided they make sense in a legacy environment. It’s certainly technically possible.

As you say, as of now, this is speculation. Sonos is trying to minimise its engineering costs while not irreparably damaging its reputation.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
K

if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

I would agree with you on both counts but cannot do so unreservedly, because of the fuzziness I have referred to earlier around the first one. In one of those fuzzy states, the gen 3 added to the legacy system would still not get the advanced features. That would need a split system, or a single system with no legacy products.

On this specific subject, my head hurts now whenever I delve into its convolutions.

PS: Schrodinger’s Cat, anyone?:-)

Ken_Griffiths

pwt,

The reason I think new hardware may not be included in modern is that …

  1. On install, the Sonos software searches, finds and identifies the device prior to setup… minor perhaps, but it does mean a software update to all devices to include the new product and any specific requirements that hardware needs to then correctly integrate with all other Sonos devices.
  2. I think the new modern hardware will be able to operate more quickly/faster with more-bandwidth, memory and processing speed than the old legacy stuff and I can see that speed/bandwidth being necessary for newer products ...and Sonos will not want to reduce that experience with their latest innovations. I can even see the hardware moving higher up the ladder on the 802.11 WiFi standard as things switchover to 802.11ax for home WiFi in the next couple of years.
  3. I think Sonos will want to encourage the customer base to move to a modern system and attract them to that type of system for a much-improved customer experience, rather than have the customer think that very little has changed with any of their newer devices. I can see Atmos Music on the horizon (now available on Amazon/Tidal)  and maybe Dolby Digital Plus with Atmos streaming movie services.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head. I’m sure there are others, if I were to think a little deeper, I’m sure there are other valid reasons, but equally I accept there must be some counter-arguments here too.👍

A
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Badge +5

I posted this in the other thread but came across this one so would post hear

 

the sonos decision has far more reaching consequences than a product brand dying. Sonos has highlighted to me that this can happen to any of these type of systems and many alternatives have been suggested. Sonos should really get together with all the major streaming services and devise a standard where software updates would only be needed to fix system bugs and stop playing catchup with the streaming services. It's in the intrest of these services as well because if the buying public sees the pitfalls of buying such devices to stream there music and that device becomes obsolete and does not run that streaming service again, the streaming service revenue will fall and the whole industry will most likely fail because the paying public will see the whole streaming concept as a flawed concept. Even before this has happened vynal is making a come back as well as cassette tape even. I'm sure the record industry would be affected as well as lost revenue in record sale as someone streaming will be more likely to listen to something different as opposed to actually taking a risk to buy the physical one.

Ken_Griffiths

I posted this in the other thread but came across this one so would post hear

 

the sonos decision has far more reaching consequences than a product brand dying. Sonos has highlighted to me that this can happen to any of these type of systems and many alternatives have been suggested. Sonos should really get together with all the major streaming services and devise a standard where software updates would only be needed to fix system bugs and stop playing catchup with the streaming services. It's in the intrest of these services as well because if the buying public sees the pitfalls of buying such devices to stream there music and that device becomes obsolete and does not run that streaming service again, the streaming service revenue will fall and the whole industry will most likely fail because the paying public will see the whole streaming concept as a flawed concept. Even before this has happened vynal is making a come back as well as cassette tape even. I'm sure the record industry would be affected as well as lost revenue in record sale as someone streaming will be more likely to listen to something different as opposed to actually taking a risk to buy the physical one.

I just personally see things differently ...and to standstill too long now would mean to stifle any technological innovation… we would still be using vhs video tapes if we all adopted a legacy system. I’m sorry, but you can keep your vinyl and audio cassette tapes.. I’m well past those things. At least let those that want to, race ahead. Thinking about it, Sonos is providing us here with the opportunity to standstill or innovate. So it’s perhaps the best announcement we ALL could have wished for anyway.🤔 

S
Userlevel 2

Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to  the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

 

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