The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Kumar · 2020-01-23T01:46:05+00:00

I will start this thread with a few caveats: First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones. Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies. Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it. All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here: Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers. By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system. The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update. Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos! I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future. I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality. Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure. So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails. What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

C

I really don't have a dog in this fight, my system is comfortably locked at 7.4, doing everything I purchased it to do. Although it would be nice to be able to replace units as needed. But here's a novel approach.

Disclaimer: This is possibly based on faulty assumptions as I haven't even been able to purchase a new product for awhile now and don't know what the current installation of new hardware steps are.

Basic Assumptions:

1. You have, will have or want a legacy installation. Legacy being defined as any firmware version released prior to 2015.
2. You purchase a new unit because of a hardware failure or expansion - NOT any new features.

You then plug the new unit into the system. It takes a look around and presents the following options:

1. Create a new system. At this point it downloads the latest and greatest firmware with all the bells and whistles and creates its own network installation with no inter-operability with any existing installation.

2. Join an existing system. At this point, it goes back and takes another look and presents the following options:

- Your system is running legacy firmware Version x.x, do you want to retain this functionality?

If you answer yes, it will state that no future SONOS support will be provided or available.

Do you want to continue?

If you answer yes, it goes out to SONOS, downloads and installs firmware Version x.x

and joins the legacy installation.

If you answer no, (to either question) it will state that this will require that all existing units be

upgraded to the latest and greatest firmware. And further states that any units not capable of

running the latest and greatest firmware will no longer function in this installation.

Then it does its thing.

This will also require SONOS to make the software for all legacy controller versions available for download - with the stated warning that SONOS will not provide any support for these versions.

Other larger and more established hardware vendors provide similar backward compatibility in their own ways, but this keeps SONOS firmware versions out of prying hands which is something that seems important to them.

Does this make everybody happy? Admittedly, No. But it does retain the full functionality of existing systems at whatever firmware version they are using and provide the ability to expand that installation or replace faulty equipment. It also provides for SONOS to continue to evolve and provide the latest and greatest features that today's ever evolving technological society seems to want.

IMNSHO, SONOS's stated position that an installation with mismatched firmwares will be possible is akin to a politician's campaign promise and you're all fools if you believe it. I'll just go make some more popcorn and lurk from the dark corner of the peanut gallery. Let the S***storm continue. My apologies for the interruption and my thanks to Kumar for a dose of rational unemotional reality.

Final thought: If you decide to go legacy, continue to block all updates and only open the door if you need to.

Userlevel 5

+5

exdirtfarmer
Enthusiast II
132 replies
4 years ago
24 January 2020

@coupster

This is the type of software delivery I would love to have. If they replaced all the data mining code with more flexible software version delivery mechanism, moving forward (or backward) would have been smoother.

Yeah, apparently we have no clue about how impossible this is to do, support, maintain.

it is the Achilles Heal of Sonos Longevity.

C

exdirtfarmer

I tried to make my suggestion idiot proof and protect SONOS’s control of its firmware versions. If you assume that anybody running a stable legacy system is not an idiot, there’s an easy down and dirty way to accomplish the same end result.

SONOS writes a program/process to locally flash the eprom (or whatever) of a device from a file.

SONOS creates an archive of all legacy firmwares and corresponding controllers for download.

The user downloads the appropriate file and flashes their own unit(s) - with the over riding assumption that SONOS is in no way responsible or liable for support, except assuring that the flash process works.

If you assume that anybody running a stable legacy system is not an idiot.

Lol, have you read some of the posts in the announcement area? :joy:

Sonos has stated that updates will be blocked automatically if you have a legacy product in your system. But if you don’t trust that, or want to stay on the Legacy version even when you don’t have any legacy products, then I guess blocking updates is a good option.

Actually, the CEO said that legacy software will receive bug fixes and security updates, but no upgrade to new functions. A huge step, because that means they forked their software, and the man hours needed to maintain both of them means a significant expense increase for Sonos. An increase they were obviously looking to avoid.

Right, I’m aware but didn’t mention the posts. The terminology is a little confusing as Sonos has traditionally referred to changing code from one to another as an ‘update’, and this is what I was referring to. Bug fixes and security changes is now...something else, at least on a legacy system.

Userlevel 5

+5

exdirtfarmer
Enthusiast II
132 replies
4 years ago
24 January 2020

Agreed. It still drives me crazy that I cant flash my system with my chosen version. This would be the appropriate time for SONOS to release a tool to give us some version control back. They no longer want to support the devices so we will do it ourselves and dump them in the recycle bin when we are finished with them. Apparently we may own the hardware, not the software, they refuse to relinquish software version control to the end user.

Sorry for the rant Kumar.

It will all work itself out, one way or another, my SONOS system isnt done yet.

Danny,

I was offering some of the knowledge learnt as it may be useful. As others have pointed out it may give comfort knowing they can lock down and see what the legacy version does when released. It may be great.

Right. If you don’t trust Sonos, then you can lockdown before the Legacy version stopping point (whatever it would be called). You will not be able to add new products or get Sonos to do any bug fix and security updates till you move to the Legacy version though.

A bit like holding off microsoft updates for a week in case they break everything. To some extent the first legacy version will be version 1.0 for some of the code. And these days v1.0 means a beta. I hold off on all OTA updates on my car and let other users test them first, have skipped quite a few entirely.

You can hold off for a week or so without having to lockdown by making sure you have automatic updates off. Sonos does beta test there updates before release, so it’s likely this will be too. But if people want to go through all the trouble of locking things down before legacy, that’s their choice.

The positive aspects are that both Spotify, Amazon Music, and TuneIn are still working well even on a version well over a year old. So the services aren’t changing daily. But would rather see a commitment to maintaining the music services where possible, than just security patches.

Agreed, and I reference that point a few times recently as a reason to believe that the Legacy system will be ok, that there is good reason to believe it can go on just fine for years based on the experience of others.

Hardware obsolescence will be a big issue going forward, there is the potential for mankind to produce limitless e-waste. That is not a good thing.

This has been an issue since smart phones came out. How big of an issue, whether the costs outweigh benefits, is a rather big topic where I think people will have vastly different view points on.

Agreed. It still drives me crazy that I cant flash my system with my chosen version. This would be the appropriate time for SONOS to release a tool to give us some version control back.

Supporting a single version is a big task. Supporting every version you’ve ever created is a nightmare. I imagine you’re ok with losing support if you’re on a previous system, but many people will want some level of support anyway, and various reasons. It really should be avoided if at all possible.

They no longer want to support the devices so we will do it ourselves and dump them in the recycle bin when we are finished with them.

The legacy version appears to now be at least an attempt to find an acceptable compromise in this regard.

Agreed. It still drives me crazy that I cant flash my system with my chosen version. This would be the appropriate time for SONOS to release a tool to give us some version control back.

Supporting a single version is a big task. Supporting every version you’ve ever created is a nightmare. I imagine you’re ok with losing support if you’re on a previous system, but many people will want some level of support anyway, and various reasons. It really should be avoided if at all possible.

They no longer want to support the devices so we will do it ourselves and dump them in the recycle bin when we are finished with them.

The legacy version appears to now be at least an attempt to find an acceptable compromise in this regard.

Presumably, if dev hours are going to be reallocated to this effort, one could hope that “acceptable” includes plenty elements from past versions that do not not need to take into account any of the dev goals Sonos has moving forward, freeing up option within the codebase. If legacy will be stuck with this version in perpetuity it sure would be nice if it was an environment with the most control possible, on the most devices possible.

We then may of course run into trouble simply from the controller standpoint in terms of platform/OS version changes as time marches on, e.g. running for instance what is essentially an outdated .apk on a future Android device and the like. Seems there’ll have to either be some amount of dev involvement into the future for that sort of testing, or else legacy users could eventually require a controller device running X,Y,Z historic flavor of iOS, Windows, etc. That’s a longer term concern, but a concern since most interested folk are likely thinking in terms of a decade or more usage.

J

Userlevel 5

+4

Jeeves
Enthusiast II
91 replies
4 years ago
24 January 2020

I’ve read so many posts today I’m numb and can’t remember who said what ,when and in which order - so please forgive me airing my views which may repeat what others have said on this and other threads.

I’m on locked-down v8.4 to preserve the use of my 5 or 6 remaining CR100s - each costing more than a netbook when i bought them. I started my Sonos system with a NAS in 2005/6 and it’s grown massively with a BlueSound Vault 2i serving as my NAS since last summer. A random offer from Plex for a lifetime subscription for about £72 saw me add Plex (shame the Plex server won’t run on my Vault so I have to leave a laptop on which runs Sonos Desktop Controller just fine) and Tidal through their discounted Plex affiliation. The only real change is the higher resolution of music that I rip and now stream.

I’d love for Sonos’s legacy software to preserve all of this with no risk to updating to a later version which would kill off my CR100s. As I still buy CDs and value the way my system worked all those years ago, I’d happily give up all the recent enhancements - most of which would be available through the BluOS and Plex combination anyway. The line-in on my Play 5 (Gen 1) gives further flexibility for Echo connection etc.

Is it too much to ask that we continue to use our systems the way we used to without fear of the software perpetually trying to update itself. Running 2 separate Sonos systems concurrently and having to remember which Android device connects to which router/Sonos network - and whether it should or shouldn’t apply app updates gives me enough of a headache. Somehow the simplicity of my 4 button one box ripping/playing Brennan B7 seems very appealing. I might even use those nice Sonos bookshelf speakers that came with my ZP100s all those years ago and which will work regardless of any Sonos software updates.

Thanks to everyone who has offered the advice along the way to get me to where my legacy system is now.

E

Userlevel 4

+5

ewolkoff
Enthusiast I
141 replies
4 years ago
24 January 2020

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time.

@Kumar: Why would they be out of sync?

Sonos cannot be expected to have updated 3rd party music services in all of their devices in perpetuity. Hardware permitting, I do expect my connect:amps to work with their line inputs as long as Sonos is solvent, as you indicated is a reasonable assumption given their comments. So what I will need, at some point in the future, is a new internet audio streaming device that I can hook up to my connect:amps via the line input. Today I tried that using my Echo Dot & Amazon Music. It works, but it is cumbersome and functionality & services are limited.

So now I’m thinking along the lines of @Stanley_4: what about hooking up a (non-legacy) Sonos Port to one of my legacy connect:amps. The Port can handle all the streaming/music services, and the connect:amps can handle the grouping & amplification. The only output of the Port would be to the connect:amp and would not need to be synced with any standalone Sonos speakers. Seems like this would be a reasonable solution, at least in my scenario with 8 connect:amps. Sonos still gets me to spend an extra $400 (at a time of my choosing), but I don’t have to buy 8x Sonos Amps to replace my legacy hardware. @Ryan S: will this be an option?

This is my intent using a different system to feed my legacy Connect, rather than a Port or other modern Sonos device... I do not want two Sonos networks. At all. I’d much rather quick-toggle between two open apps on my mobile (one for legacy Sonos, one for the streaming box) as opposed to (what I’m imagining) having to likely disconnect and then re-establish connection with a “modern” Sonosnet device, and back and forth. Just using the Sonos app for speaker settings and grouping changes is much preferable, and then moving to whichever app controls the new “brains" of the operation will be simpler.
I tried this today using my TV for streaming Pandora as well as PLEX from my NAS and it was honestly simple as could be. I’m beginning to feel fine about now merely leaving Sonos as a wireless speaker network and nothing more. This means there’ll be no more follow-on purchases from me for Sonos’ to rely on as they have relied on from most of us unfortunately; my speaker network expansions will be “legacy” based and in the form of 2nd-hand (and laughably cheap in comparison to new) sunsetted devices that we’re already seeing on the market. The more I consider it all, the more comfortable I am with it, in practice and in wallet.

This is a smart idea. Seems like it would work fine. Not sure voice integration would work on a per room basis, but that seems to be the only major downside.

A

Userlevel 4

+2

andyd1302
Enthusiast II
25 replies
4 years ago
25 January 2020

Firstly kudos to Kumar for setting up an alternative thread looking for a solution.

I've a large collection of ripped CD's on an old PC & currently run it as a server to feed Sonos via the excellent Plex.

I'm not as badly affected as some (with whom I have the greatest sympathy), but I own 1 x ZP90 & 1 x Play 5 (both Gen 1).

I'm thinking of using Plex to run music via Nvidia Shield Pro 2019 (the new one with Plex built-in), using HDMI out to my Yamaha A/V or Onkyo amp.

I don't need alarms, voice activation etc. Just a sleep timer to switch off at night which both amps have.

The question I have, which isn't immediately obvious to me is how to control the Nvidia remotely using either Android Phone/Tablet.

Is this feasible after the inevitable legacy period runs out & the end is nigh for my Gen 1's?

Would be interested to hear of a solution or if there's a better one out there.

I've been eyeing up a Bluesound Node 2i but don't really want to jump out of the frying pan so to speak.

I'm hoping Sonos comes through for their customers with an amicable resolution but question whether the company is really listening and appreciates the seriousness of the situation they've put themselves in, as the way the tide has turned in the past Week against the company could ultimately be it's downfall, which is in no one's interests.

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time.

@Kumar: Why would they be out of sync?

Sonos cannot be expected to have updated 3rd party music services in all of their devices in perpetuity. Hardware permitting, I do expect my connect:amps to work with their line inputs as long as Sonos is solvent, as you indicated is a reasonable assumption given their comments. So what I will need, at some point in the future, is a new internet audio streaming device that I can hook up to my connect:amps via the line input. Today I tried that using my Echo Dot & Amazon Music. It works, but it is cumbersome and functionality & services are limited.

So now I’m thinking along the lines of @Stanley_4: what about hooking up a (non-legacy) Sonos Port to one of my legacy connect:amps. The Port can handle all the streaming/music services, and the connect:amps can handle the grouping & amplification. The only output of the Port would be to the connect:amp and would not need to be synced with any standalone Sonos speakers. Seems like this would be a reasonable solution, at least in my scenario with 8 connect:amps. Sonos still gets me to spend an extra $400 (at a time of my choosing), but I don’t have to buy 8x Sonos Amps to replace my legacy hardware. @Ryan S: will this be an option?

This is my intent using a different system to feed my legacy Connect, rather than a Port or other modern Sonos device... I do not want two Sonos networks. At all. I’d much rather quick-toggle between two open apps on my mobile (one for legacy Sonos, one for the streaming box) as opposed to (what I’m imagining) having to likely disconnect and then re-establish connection with a “modern” Sonosnet device, and back and forth. Just using the Sonos app for speaker settings and grouping changes is much preferable, and then moving to whichever app controls the new “brains" of the operation will be simpler.
I tried this today using my TV for streaming Pandora as well as PLEX from my NAS and it was honestly simple as could be. I’m beginning to feel fine about now merely leaving Sonos as a wireless speaker network and nothing more. This means there’ll be no more follow-on purchases from me for Sonos’ to rely on as they have relied on from most of us unfortunately; my speaker network expansions will be “legacy” based and in the form of 2nd-hand (and laughably cheap in comparison to new) sunsetted devices that we’re already seeing on the market. The more I consider it all, the more comfortable I am with it, in practice and in wallet.

This is a smart idea. Seems like it would work fine. Not sure voice integration would work on a per room basis, but that seems to be the only major downside.

No, voice integration wouldn't follow along room-to-room in my case, but I’d have it in my main room and kitchen with my setup the way it is.
Honestly I don’t much care about voice; as far native integration I have a single original Sonos:ONE and then a couple Google minis, but I very rarely use it for music control except for the occasional “Google, Mute/Stop”. Beyond that my One in the kitchen is a glorified kitchen timer that occasionally tells me about the weather. I’ve always seen voice within the Sonos ecosystem as novelty; I wouldn’t care if it were gone.

K

Kumar
Author
13116 replies
4 years ago
25 January 2020

I’m on locked-down v8.4 to preserve the use of my 5 or 6 remaining CR100s - each costing more than a netbook when i bought them.

Is it too much to ask that we continue to use our systems the way we used to without fear of the software perpetually trying to update itself.

As long as you stay in locked down mode, you should not even notice the Brexit except in places like this.

But that leads me to more questions, having only partially understood the recent discussions on this thread.

In the quoted case, what will happen after May, if the lock down is removed? Will the system jumped to the legacy version, thereby bricking the CR100s? If it does, can it be taken back to 8.4?
This is relevant to my situation that is a lot more common, with 3 legacy zones and 3 modern ones on the latest version. What will happen after May if all 3 legacy zones were to be in powered down state, and unwittingly I invoke an update that then gets applied to the 3 modern zones? The legacy zones would then be unreachable, correct? In that case, if I was willing to live with a split system, would that be possible? How?
In the above case, if I did not want a split system, would it be possible to reverse the update and go back to one legacy system of 6 zones?
And a final question, though not likely to apply to me - if I wanted to add a new product in May 2021, could I add that to the legacy system on the legacy version and run it as a 7 zone system?

Perhaps these questions have been answered, but while I understand more about this than many, I understand a lot less that the few who fully do so, so indulge me.