The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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K

 

 I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version.

 

That helps, and is good to know. How many years now? No issues with streaming service functionality till now?

@Loose Moose : The upstream Connect would play music before the downstream via Line In Connect plays it because the downstream one has to do a analog to digital and then back to analog conversion. In addition and more contributory as a cause, it has to first build a buffer to ensure that other Sonos devices on its system that may be grouped with it are able to be in sync - this, even if the grouping function is not being used. 

L
Userlevel 2

 

@Loose Moose : The upstream Connect would play music before the downstream via Line In Connect plays it because the downstream one has to do a analog to digital and then back to analog conversion. In addition and more contributory as a cause, it has to first build a buffer to ensure that other Sonos devices on its system that may be grouped with it are able to be in sync - this, even if the grouping function is not being used. 

 

@Kumar: I understand, but if a Connect / Port is not playing anything ‘upstream’ ie is not syncing itself with any Sonos speakers, and is only connecting via its line-out to the line-in on a connect:amp, wouldn’t everything on the legacy side sync just fine?  In other words the legacy ones all sync with each other but not with the Connect / Port, but that doesn’t matter because the only role of the non-legacy device is to send internet music to the legacy system via line out. Maybe this is part of the ‘stay tuned until May’ message we have been hearing….

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

 

 I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version.

 

That helps, and is good to know. How many years now? No issues with streaming service functionality till now?

 

Since before April/2018

We mainly use Spotify, Internet Radio, and still some local library.  If I was having any issues I would take the update and lose the features in the PC desktop.  I am just seeing how long I can go.  Lost the 8.4  App on an IPad but all the Androids still working with a force install of the 8.4 APK file.

 

@Loose Moose .  The Line In will become our savior, me thinks.  I like your Idea of feeding one with a New Sonos device just to get access to streaming services that get hosed on Legacy.  There will be lots of options to plug in, unfortunately you may be grouping with one app and selecting music with another.  Sonos will likely have to allow multiple instances of the App, or maybe there will be 2 versions on the App Stores, one for SONOS Legacy and one for SONOS V2. We will wait and see.

Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
K

@Loose Moose  Yes, but why do you need the upstream Connect then? Any make streamer that has a line out would do the job. And it would be simpler too, because with two Sonos systems running in the home, with two different apps, it may get tiresome very soon.

To be honest when I read the suggestion, I had a “why did I not think of that” moment, but regretfully, that did not last for more than a minute:-).

K

Further to the above, I am even now running an Echo Show 5 - now that a display is cheap - into my Connect Amp line in because Sonos still has not brought the Alexa integration to India. It works brilliantly to the extent that I use the Sonos app only when I want to play music from the NAS. It also confers the Connect Amp with bluetooth capability for when that is needed - the Show can take inputs via Bluetooth. And the thick icing on the cake is what no Sonos unit can do even today - display album art for the track being played.

All hail Line In...:-).

chickentender

(duplicate posted delete - sry, my browser keeps doing this for some reason recently)

chickentender

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time.

 

@Kumar: Why would they be out of sync?

Sonos cannot be expected to have updated 3rd party music services in all of their devices in perpetuity. Hardware permitting, I do expect my connect:amps to work with their line inputs as long as Sonos is solvent, as you indicated is a reasonable assumption given their comments. So what I will need, at some point in the future, is a new internet audio streaming device that I can hook up to my connect:amps via the line input. Today I tried that using my Echo Dot & Amazon Music. It works, but it is cumbersome and functionality & services are limited.

So now I’m thinking along the lines of @Stanley_4: what about hooking up a (non-legacy) Sonos Port to one of my legacy connect:amps. The Port can handle all the streaming/music services, and the connect:amps can handle the grouping & amplification. The only output of the Port would be to the connect:amp and would not need to be synced with any standalone Sonos speakers. Seems like this would be a reasonable solution, at least in my scenario with 8 connect:amps. Sonos still gets me to spend an extra $400 (at a time of my choosing), but I don’t have to buy 8x Sonos Amps to replace my legacy hardware. @Ryan S: will this be an option?

This is my intent using a different system to feed my legacy Connect, rather than a Port or other modern Sonos device... I do not want two Sonos networks. At all. I’d much rather quick-toggle between two open apps on my mobile (one for legacy Sonos, one for the streaming box) as opposed to (what I’m imagining) having to likely disconnect and then re-establish connection with a “modern” Sonosnet device, and back and forth. Just using the Sonos app for speaker settings and grouping changes is much preferable, and then moving to whichever app controls the new “brains" of the operation will be simpler. 
I tried this today using my TV for streaming Pandora as well as PLEX from my NAS and it was honestly simple as could be. I’m beginning to feel fine about now merely leaving Sonos as a wireless speaker network and nothing more. This means there’ll be no more follow-on purchases from me for Sonos’ to rely on as they have relied on from most of us unfortunately; my speaker network expansions will be “legacy” based and in the form of 2nd-hand (and laughably cheap in comparison to new) sunsetted devices that we’re already seeing on the market. The more I consider it all, the more comfortable I am with it, in practice and in wallet.

 

K

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

R
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

Agreed, the only thing worse than support being pulled for older products is support pulled for all products because Sonos fails.

In terms of this topic, all my legacy products are downstairs while by modern (for now) Play:3’s are upstairs so two networks are feasible for me. If Spotify stops working I’ll unsubscribe and so long as radio keeps working I’ll be fine.
 

What I suspect I won’t do is now replace some of those conponents as I had been planning to do because they’ll be held back by needing to join the legacy network. 

Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

Once they have the pared down Legacy software running, keeping it current and available shouldn’t be too hard. Unless something horrible is discovered there really won’t be a reason to drop it until the number of users drops to few enough that it just isn’t practical to keep it going.

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I’m not concerned about Sonos security issues under most usage scenarios. There is no inbound connection to the speakers from outside the local network unless one has misconfigured the router. That’s not say there are no possible exploitation scenarios, but they’re a very long way down the list of things to worry about.

Since Sonos has now shifted its position on updates following the backlash, this concern may be moot anyway.

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

Agreed.

I’ll reiterate that dropping support for the older devices is a function of how Sonos has chosen to engineer its products. It’s absolutely not a law of physics, despite the Sonos line that it’s to do with the capabilities of the older devices.

In their shoes, I’d improve their software system architecture to accommodate different versions (like most distributed systems do), otherwise they’ll face exactly the same ugly scenario with the next wave of deprecations.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

I think Sonos’s survival as the company we know is in the balance. I can still see people buying speakers in ones and twos, accepting they will be end-of-lifed within as little as five years. I can’t see large numbers of people continuing to buy whole-house systems, or building out large installations over time. They will look elsewhere … ideally at systems which decouple the core audio delivery from the streaming smarts.

And, for the ones and twos scenarios, there are LOTS of other options, many of which are cheaper, some of which are better.

I’d say it’s 50:50.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
K

I’m not concerned about Sonos security issues under most usage scenarios. 

Since Sonos has now shifted its position on updates following the backlash, this concern may be moot anyway.

And, for the ones and twos scenarios, there are LOTS of other options, many of which are cheaper, some of which are better.

I’d say it’s 50:50.

That is reassuring, on the security front. As to the concerns being moot, my concern was how to even know whether the new position on updates is sincere and is being adhered to after May and for how long, seeing the now visible trail of broken promises, including ones from the CEO himself. 

To the second part, I think that it is precisely these options that has left Sonos feeling hemmed in, hence the gamble to reach for the 1024 Mb development potential to find a way out of the squeeze. If 50:50, it is a hell of gamble though.

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

To the second part, I think that it is precisely these options that has left Sonos feeling hemmed in, hence the gamble to reach for the 1024 Mb development potential to find a way out of the squeeze. If 50:50, it is a hell of gamble though.

The gamble is also that they can out-innovate Amazon, Google and Apple (among many others) in this space. I’m skeptical.

The trade off for this is that they had a significant brand value differentiator in their full support for legacy devices, and the ability to build out diverse systems over time with confidence. They chucked that in the trash and there’s no retrieving it.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
S

Nice to see a sensible thread without the rants, justified though they are.  Getting some good ideas.

 

My concern is something most people seem to either be ignoring or just glossing over - the controller app.

I’m with everyone wanting sonos to just make things work as they do now but perhaps limiting the new fangled guffery from the legacy devices. Group and stream music to all speakers, new and old, is all i ask.

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too.  Apart from the more technical minded people with android devices (who can sideload an older APK) there is no way for a device to install an older version of the controller and as i’m sure we’ve all experienced at one time or another, updating the controller sometimes forces an update of the entire system.

Given the average lifecycle of mobiles these days i’m concerned about the ability to obtain a working controller for this promised future of working firmware.

It may be a non-issue but i’d like the issue aired and adressed by sonos as well as the firmware issues.

 

K

The gamble is also that they can out-innovate Amazon, Google and Apple (among many others) in this space. I’m skeptical.

 

Against the contrary opinions of some enthusiasts here, I have believed that ever since I started using Echo devices wired to Sonos Line In jacks and have said so often enough here. And Sonos line in jacks only because they were at hand; buying new, it would have been quality active speaker input jacks. I am counting on these line in jacks to remain viable for a long time to come, notwithstanding any future antics of Sonos short of a meltdown. 

Time will tell. In some ways I feel for Spence, looking like being caught in a second consecutive inflection point, after the BlackBerry one.

K

 

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too. 

 

@Ryan S  has said that there will be an app dedicated to working with systems being used in legacy system mode - it should not matter if all or only some products in such a system are legacy products.

S

 

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too. 

 

@Ryan S  has said that there will be an app dedicated to working with systems being used in legacy system mode - it should not matter if all or only some products in such a system are legacy products.

 

Thanks Kumar,  that must have been lost in the morass of venting customers as I didn’t see that particular reply. 

 

Would be extremely handy if all these little nuggets were put into an actually helpful info post by @Ryan S.  Seems like all the relevant info is being put in comments and they’re saving the main posts for the PR hot air.

K

Digressing a little - I don't know if MBA schools still use the case study approach, but this one looks like the making of classic one, going all the way back to 2005, then to the introduction of Echos, to the IPO, and then to this event. It is still in the making, and ought to be ready for classes starting in a few years, regardless of how things have played out by then.

K

 

Thanks Kumar,  that must have been lost in the morass of venting customers as I didn’t see that particular reply. 

 

Morass is right; I have seen the word cesspool also used. 

I happen to believe that the rants now are justified, with far less than the usual being poorly grounded this time. But there is a place for them, and my request to not bring them into this thread has been observed, something that is gratifying.

Moving on….

A

Good idea for a thread, @Kumar - I can understand why people are so upset, but I don’t think that Sonos are going to make any major concessions because of all this sound and fury.

I have been running a locked down system (mostly, also locked off from the internet) for a while now and it works fine simply for playing music from a NAS. If I want to listen to the radio side, then I can open it up to the internet again - but I usually keep it locked off.

I’m currently listening to a Play 5 fed via the line in by a Chromecast Audio. This cost me £30. Using Hifi cast I can stream music from a music server on a NAS, listen to radio stations via Shoutcast radio and even listen to 24 bit files (if anyone’s interested) - it also supports streaming from a local device (e.g. phone). It also completely removes the 65,000 track limit and issues regarding the amount of store used. It makes the Port look massively overpriced, IMHO.

Once the signal is in the Sonos environment, it can be used the same as any other line in - e.g. grouped with other speakers, used as the input for another Sonos speaker etc. 

I intend to use my speakers/devices until they break - and then I’ll probably buy a decent speaker with a line-in to replace them, using whatever cheap-ish streamer works best for me at that time. Luckily for me, I’ve never been interested in having the same thing playing throughout the house (e.g. party mode), so as long as I can listen to  my music wherever I want to, I’ll be happy.

K

 

I’m currently listening to a Play 5 fed via the line in by a Chromecast Audio. This cost me £30…. . It makes the Port look massively overpriced, IMHO.

Once the signal is in the Sonos environment, it can be used the same as any other line in - e.g. grouped with other speakers, used as the input for another Sonos speaker etc. 

 Luckily for me, I’ve never been interested in having the same thing playing throughout the house (e.g. party mode), so as long as I can listen to  my music wherever I want to, I’ll be happy.

I don't remember the exact chronology, but I think CCA came before Echo; I know I have posts here saying that the CCA makes the Connect pricing look more than absurd for single zone use. I use CC for a TV and Firestick for another, and I happen to prefer the Amazon UI, which also probably why I prefer Echo to CCA.

In my case, I too do not need multi room in the usual manner - I just happen to have a very large central open space that covers the kitchen, dining, living and adjacent balcony. Each a dedicated zone, but grouping often makes sense here, so I will need that to continue. I haven’t tried it extensively, but I have a feeling Echo groups can step in to replace Sonos hardware at its real end of life.

K

Further to the above, the CCA is an equally capable alternative to the Echo as a way to deliver a Sonos legacy/transition management plan. All that is needed are line in jacks and these are there on every Sonos legacy product at this time.

In future I think there will be more, not less options, notwithstanding the Sonos recourse to the courts to prevent this from happening.

And as it happens, there is something that the Echo has done that has left Sonos standing - constant flow of refreshed products that are easily replaced by virtue of being cheap. I started with the Dot wired to line in on Sonos, and have graduated to the Echo Show 5, that has a very cool display as well, that takes care of album art for music being played. All for my target price point for such front ends - at or below USD 50.

K

And an aside - I am pretty sure that this action by Sonos is not going to help them in the case against “evil” Google. Google is savvy enough to have picked up on this firestorm and will look to how best it can be exploited in its defence, if that is in any way possible.

A

Further to the above, the CCA is an equally capable alternative to the Echo as a way to deliver a Sonos legacy/transition management plan.

Well, it would be if Google hadn’t discontinued them - I thought that they were such good value that I bought a few before they disappeared, although I think that they can still be purchased on ebay.

All that is needed are line in jacks and these are there on every Sonos legacy product at this time.

In future I think there will be more, not less options, notwithstanding the Sonos recourse to the courts to prevent this from happening.

Yes, agreed…. The Echo approach is just one - many more will appear through time...

And as it happens, there is something that the Echo has done that has left Sonos standing - constant flow of refreshed products that are easily replaced by virtue of being cheap. I started with the Dot wired to line in on Sonos, and have graduated to the Echo Show 5, that has a very cool display as well, that takes care of album art for music being played. All for my target price point for such front ends - at or below USD 50.

Which is why it’s even more bizarre what Sonos has done… They could have spent the extra money on redevelopment, sorted out the known problems with their initial system design, and persuaded s all that Sonos was a brand that we should continue to trust.  Shame, really...

 

K

The CCA was a brilliant product, with a neat switch to provide better quality signals if a HiFi set was the target speaker. At the time, the price was ridiculously low, but I have a feeling it lacked a champion inside a huge Google. The CC for TV is still around though.

But as a replacement for Sonos, I found the compulsion of having to always use the phone to deploy/manage CCA streams to be clunky and I much prefer the Echo which can initiate play by voice AND by phone. The latter via casting or by bluetooth.

So the CCA went into a drawer where it still languishes, because I had the Connect already, and when the Echo came along, it provided a much slicker way to leverage the line in jacks on the Connect.

It may well happen that someone that sees Sonos legacy line in jacks as a starting target market will turn up, to provide this transition with yet another option.

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