The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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K

@MikeOinToronto I have no issues with Spotify sound quality and Spotify connect via either Sonos or Chromecast works fine for me. I am not familiar with any Spotify hardware though, so I can't answer your question but don't see any reason why it can't work as you suggest. That is how echo devices work, and these can also do multi room sync. Can Spotify connect hardware do that?

K

@MikeOinToronto  as far as I know, the spotify app can cast only to one speaker visible in the Spotify app at one time.

M
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@MikeOinToronto I have no issues with Spotify sound quality and Spotify connect via either Sonos or Chromecast works fine for me. I am not familiar with any Spotify hardware though, so I can't answer your question but don't see any reason why it can't work as you suggest. That is how echo devices work, and these can also do multi room sync. Can Spotify connect hardware do that?

I am not sure if it can do multi room sync.  I don't currently use Spotify but tried it a couple of times before settling on deezer.  I seem to recall you can check multiple end points but I may be wrong.  This wouldn't be the end of the world for me if not possible as I only listen one room at a time. 

I am currently using sonos and echo devices throughout the house.  But if the Spotify app becomes the central point of my system, Google, echo and many other vendor devices could be used and Spotify would be agnostic to the hardware in a sense.  I like this as an idea.  I probably should sign up for Spotify premium for a month and play around with it but I am also curious if others have adopted this approach.

K

As I said it works fine for me and working through Chromecast it renders artwork on the tv screen as well. As well as via Fire sticks.

And the app control interface can be via either a phone or a computer.

But you can also do this via the Amazon music app and your echos will do multi room sync plus voice as well. So, why Spotify?

M
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As I said it works fine for me and working through Chromecast it renders artwork on the tv screen as well. As well as via Fire sticks.

And the app control interface can be via either a phone or a computer.

But you can also do this via the Amazon music app and your echos will do multi room sync plus voice as well. So, why Spotify?

I guess I would say two theoretical reasons why Spotify over just using the Alexa app.  First the idea that Spotify connect allows each device to stream directly from spotify's servers.  This may be more of a theoretical advantage than practical.  Second, I could add a Google home and numerous other vendors hardware and Spotify will not care.  If I use Alexa I am tied into the Amazon environment.  Although  unlikely, what stops Amazon from obsoleting all their old echo devices.  Since Spotify is a content provider, it makes sense to me that they have a financial incentive to make the Spotify app and protocol as accessible as possible to as many hardware vendors as possible.

Ryan S
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Yowsuh! I think I have to re-read that one in the morning. :joy:
I read it twice and am still not sure I followed but i think I know where you’re going.
(It’s 1:56am here and I am officially overdone. Catch you again.)

Lol. I know the feeling.

I think this cloud bridge between legacy and modern systems using Amazon Alexa groups should work, but I cannot test it  because Sonos has not brought the Alexa integration to India. In the Alexa app, one can group devices in a way that permanently (unless changed later) assigns any single Echo device to speakers that Alexa recognises and shows in the Alexa app; or many such can be assembled and assigned as a group by checking boxes next to Alexa discovered speakers. Any command by voice to the Echo device then gets music to play in sync without having to say more than “Alexa, Play such and such music”, via something in the cloud that streams this music to all checked box speakers, in sync. So, if the Alexa app is able to see Sonos speakers in a legacy system, as well as those in a modern system, checking boxes for both speakers while making a group should get the job done, thanks to Amazon tech extending a shake hand to Sonos servers.

No more split systems then, where Echo devices are deployed. This won’t work for NAS music play of course, because Amazon does not support that play.

Again, this one is for @Ryan S to have at!

 

The team is still working on some things here, so I’m hesitant to give more information where it might not be accurate. So I’m going to speak on how a setup works today if you have two Sonos household on your network, with the caveat that it may not be how a split system looks in the future.

Right now, you can only properly add one Sonos household to Alexa. People with multiple homes already run into this today.

Alexa groups can send a grouping command to Sonos devices, creating a Sonos group and then playing to them. If you have two separate Sonos systems at the home, you can’t group devices across them.

Currently, all legacy devices have a line-in connection, so you could use anything with the ability to play grouped with an audio output hooked up to an input on the legacy, and if you have a line-in on the modern system as well. That would include using a Port as part of the modern system to output audio into the line-in on a legacy system. But it could also include using two Echo Dots with Alexa linked with one of your two households.

We’ll have more to share in May, so while it’s great to be considering options, nothing is changing right now and you’ll have plenty of time to decide what you’d like to test out as more information becomes available.

 

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.
chickentender

As I said it works fine for me and working through Chromecast it renders artwork on the tv screen as well. As well as via Fire sticks.

And the app control interface can be via either a phone or a computer.

But you can also do this via the Amazon music app and your echos will do multi room sync plus voice as well. So, why Spotify?

I guess I would say two theoretical reasons why Spotify over just using the Alexa app.  First the idea that Spotify connect allows each device to stream directly from spotify's servers.  This may be more of a theoretical advantage than practical.  Second, I could add a Google home and numerous other vendors hardware and Spotify will not care.  If I use Alexa I am tied into the Amazon environment.  Although  unlikely, what stops Amazon from obsoleting all their old echo devices.  Since Spotify is a content provider, it makes sense to me that they have a financial incentive to make the Spotify app and protocol as accessible as possible to as many hardware vendors as possible.

In terms of streaming with Spotify Connect, yes you’re correct the device used is is pulling the stream (to the best of my knowledge) from Spotify’s server while playback is happening and the Spotify interface on your device is acting as a controller, as opposed to (as you’ve mentioned) using Bluetooth or Airplay where the device you’re using to control is pulling the stream and then sending it to the playback device. 

Caveat with Spotify Connect is that (as also mentioned above) it can only play to one source. You can play to multiple Sonos speakers but the grouping is done via the Sonos controller. As seen in the screenshot - there are multiple devices on my network to play to with Spotify Connect, including the Sonos One with 2 additional (+2) speakers in that group as defined by speaker zone grouping with Sonos itself. You cannot select to play to multiple playback destinations - you can only choose one.

The only 3rd party streaming interface that I’m aware of (there may be others, I’m not sure) that can define/change speaker groups within the app itself is Pandora’s Sonos integration (mobile only, not desktop or web versions) but I think that capability is limited to Sonos speakers specifically.

 

K

@Ryan S  thanks! So on the alexa app, only one set of Sonos speakers would be discovered as devices? If yes, would changing this to have both so discovered not be easier than getting legacy and modern systems to be inter operable at a local Sonos level? As has been said by Sonos, the latter is impossible.

As to your idea of using a port on a modern system to output audio via line in to a legacy Sonos line in: the two systems would not be in sync. The legacy one would play later?

Can you elaborate on the two echo dots with Alexa linked with one of the two systems and your reference to both having line in jacks: do you mean one echo dot wired to line in of one system and the other wired to the line in of the other system and then grouping the two dots via Alexa to play together via Amazon tech? Would the two systems be able to achieve sync that is close enough to the perfect needed to avoid audible out of sync effects? That is something I could test without needing the India integration? And if it works today on my one system, it can work just as well on two systems in future?

K

@MikeOinToronto , you can also cast from the Amazon music app to echo devices such that the stream switches over direct to the echo device, with the phone acting just as a controller. And this is also what Spotify connect does as @chickentender has pointed out.

chickentender

@Ryan S  thanks! So on the alexa app, only one set of Sonos speakers would be discovered as devices? If yes, would changing this to have both so discovered not be easier than getting legacy and modern systems to be inter operable at a local Sonos level? As has been said by Sonos, the latter is impossible.

As to your idea of using a port on a modern system to output audio via line in to a legacy Sonos line in: the two systems would not be in sync. The legacy one would play later?

Can you elaborate on the two echo dots with Alexa linked with one of the two systems and your reference to both having line in jacks: do you mean one echo dot wired to line in of one system and the other wired to the line in of the other system and then grouping the two dots via Alexa to play together via Amazon tech? Would the two systems be able to achieve sync that is close enough to the perfect needed to avoid audible out of sync effects? That is something I could test without needing the India integration? And if it works today on my one system, it can work just as well on two systems in future?

If the modern system Port (or modern Connect for that matter) is sending its output to the LINE-IN of a legacy speaker on legacy network, there would be no audible audio (nothing to be “out of sync”) coming from the Port itself other than to whichever device it’s physically connected to, in this case the legacy Sonos device, which syncs the music with other legacy speakers grouped with it before it is heard from the speaker itself.

K

@chickentender it's now past my midnight, so my turn to be fuzzy.

If the port is silent, even so, other modern units grouped with it would be all playing before the legacy system that is fed by a line in signal from the port. And if the modern units are also silent, where is the integration of music play across two systems?

chickentender

@chickentender it's now past my midnight, so my turn to be fuzzy.

If the port is silent, even so, other modern units grouped with it would be all playing before the legacy system that is fed by a line in signal from the port. And if the modern units are also silent, where is the integration of music play across two systems?

Ahhhh.. yes, I wasn’t considering other modern grouped speakers. Very good point. That does sound to be problematic.

And I know the feeling as you’re aware. Hahaha. Goodnight Kumar! :sweat_smile:  (and good morning from me!)

 

K

@chickentender catch you later! And even though I say this myself, credit to all for what I think: at this time, there is no thread here at a higher level of discussion. And credit to all for the self imposed no profanity discipline as well.

chickentender

All of the recent above is partially why I’ve no interest personally whatsoever in having a split modern/legacy Sonos system. I want my Sonos system all working together at all times, whether modern or not. I want my speaker networks, regardless of brand in fact, to be in sync. This is a benefit of Airplay2, but in my opinion it’s also rather “fallback” of sorts simply because I don't want my mobile device to be the source of the stream on the network, but rather just to act as controllers. 

You see it sounds as if my wants are met by having a wireless environment that 100% Sonos, or 100% Bluesound, or 100% Raspberry Pi. The exception being my main listening area which can be comprised of whatever I like, so long as it has an access point to stream sync’d music to other areas as a source of those areas.

While I like the idea of the Roon approach (to bring up another solution that potentially address all the problems that most are concerned with), I do not like the idea of the heavy server system requirements as your needs scale up, nor do I like the idea of high subscription outlay for playing my own home audio. The lifetime price is somewhat acceptable but will it last…?  And, I already own lifetime PLEX which accomplishes much of what Roon does, at least from an organizational standpoint, if one can find a way to incorporate it in the home, which is more limited in scope to what Roon can achieve overall (but again Roon is at a much higher price and a much higher hardware capability requirement).

A Roon Nucleus can do everything everyone wants, but needless to say it’s a substantial outlay of dollars to achieve, and from what I understand (from many reports) you still may run into plenty of hiccups that may need to be addressed whilst ironing everything out; you are, after all now dealing with synchronized streams to a large variety of endpoints using varied interfaces that Roon accesses. And again (this just doesn’t go away) the cash outlay for either turn-key Roon servers (Nucleus, Nucleus+) or building your own with hardware strong enough to run it well, in addition to the subscription cost (be in time-limited or lifetime) is surely no small amount and in some ways places you in a similar situation as all other options: you now have a mix of Roon capable endpoints, but effectively the crux of your entire digital streaming life is tied to Roon and its ability to deliver, as well as work within the API parameters of the streaming services (Spotify, etc) from which it gets content. (note: this is all academic and only my interpretation based on a not insignificant amount of time I’ve spent reading and speaking with Roon users, but nonetheless is not first-hand experience.)

R
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I am with chickentender's first paragraph Sonos was (and I am sure this is true for many owners) bought for simplicity of use, multi room in sync along with great audio quality. So the way forward for people like me has to be a single evnironment. So whilst many of these ideas are fascinating, and in truth if it was just me in the house well… but they are not for me.

And this is sad because currently it looks like my pragmatic way forward is to live with legacy and not buying any more Sonos after May ( maybe later depending upon the solution Sonos finally deliver) and, by the time I do have to think of replacement there could be significant alternatives to Sonos out there.

There are solutions that I believe Sonos could implement but whether they see the business case for doing so…..

 

K

I am with chickentender's first paragraph Sonos was (and I am sure this is true for many owners) bought for simplicity of use, multi room in sync along with great audio quality. So the way forward for people like me has to be a single evnironment. So whilst many of these ideas are fascinating, and in truth if it was just me in the house well… but they are not for me.

And this is sad because currently it looks like my pragmatic way forward is to live with legacy and not buying any more Sonos after May

 

@Ralpfocus If multi room in sync is that important to you, there may be a way to get it while running a split system, using Echo devices. I had put forth how this may be done using a single untethered Echo Device bridging the two systems in the cloud. @Ryan S has shot this down, but, with apologies for mixing metaphors, has also pulled his punch in a subtle edit to his post made later, an edit that I picked up! 

But he has planted an alternative with promise, if there are line in jacks in both parts of the split system, using two Echo devices, one wired to each line in, and then using the Alexa app and Amazon tech to bridge the two systems. I will check out this later today and report results; I can see no reason why this should not work. And this one I can test, it does not need the India integration.

In my next post, some musings on this all rooms in sync requirement.

K

On the multi room in perfect sync function:

The Sonos multi room feature has two parts to it: Multi room play from a single source and such play that is also in perfect sync. One needs to see it this way because many may only need the first part, and if so, even that need may have evaporated via streaming services if NAS play isn't required.

When I bought into Sonos in 2011, I was looking for just the first part. What I wanted was a way to play my CD collection conveniently in the living room to start with and then, via more Sonos kit, in my bedroom. Moving the CD content to a NAS gave me just that - one source supply to multiple rooms. There was no need to have the music play in sync: that in the bedroom could not be heard in the living room anyway, at the sound levels I play music at.  This business of music following me around did not appeal to me then, and does not appeal to me now. As the use of the NAS as a source has reduced with a shift to streaming services, the utility of this function has dropped - my son who uses his bedroom whenever he is with us, has his own set up and he sees no need for Sonos since he does not need any such music from the NAS that isn't already in Apple Music - indeed a couple of years ago he donated the play 1 from that room for use in the open space zones. Without multi room, one can now play music in all rooms via the cloud, that one big source replacing the tiny NAS. Or now, in what is a 6 zone system, in any zone in the open space. And even the NAS can be used as a source without multi room functionality by a one time upload of its contents to Google in the cloud and accessed by any room without needing multi room functionality.

Moving on to the second aspect - the in sync thing. Over time, I added more zones to the open space where my living room is one part, to get over the problem of music having to be too loud at one corner of the space to be properly heard at the other distant corners. Just for this, perfect sync is still not needed. But it did not take me too long to realise how well parties would be served by playing all zones in the open space, when perfect sync was absolutely essential. But if this need was not there by virtue of not having a open space concept in the home, the perfect sync would also not be needed, and I could well have split my system and stayed with Sonos. 

BUT - there are now many ways to skin the multi room cat, including the one that does perfect sync for zones in open space home architecture. And Sonos has given all their competition a big boost by giving us a compelling reason to look at them. Which sentence circles this post back to topic.

All of the above might be useful on thinking through options for a post Sonos Brexit future - note that real one has dawned on Britain and the EU today.

K

@Ralpfocus If multi room in sync is that important to you, there may be a way to get it while running a split system, using Echo devices. I had put forth how this may be done using a single untethered Echo Device bridging the two systems in the cloud. @Ryan S has shot this down, but, with apologies for mixing metaphors, has also pulled his punch in a subtle edit to his post made later, an edit that I picked up! 

But he has planted an alternative with promise, if there are line in jacks in both parts of the split system, using two Echo devices, one wired to each line in, and then using the Alexa app and Amazon tech to bridge the two systems. I will check out this later today and report results; I can see no reason why this should not work. And this one I can test, it does not need the India integration.

 

Bumping my quote in the interest of continuity/coherence for the good new that follows:

I have just concluded testing the Ryan idea referred to in the second paragraph quoted. IT WORKS, OUT OF THE BOX!! Kudos to Ryan!

Actually, I made the test even more of a test. I often leave my Sonos net powered down if the all party mode via Sonos control is not needed. To play any one line in driven zone, I merely then have to boot it, leaving the root bridge unit powered off, and start the Echo device attached via voice or Amazon casting, and music starts playing from the Connect/Connect Amp in that one zone.

What I did to run the test is to wire a Dot to an unused line in equipped Connect Amp zone in the open space; one Connect Amp there already has a Echo Show wired to it. Then I powered on the Dot, the Show, and the two Connect Amps. Made and named a multi room of the two Echo devices via the Alexa app. And then, using the cast feature in the Amazon Music app, picked the named multi room Echo device group as the target and the music started coming out of the two speaker pairs in the two zones, that are wired to the two Connect Amp speaker terminals. IN PERFECT SYNC - right from the beginning. And since one of the two Echo devices was a Show 5, with album art there as well. 

Admittedly, I did not test to see if there is any drifting of the sync after ten minutes which is when I shut the test down. 

If this works for two Connect Amps that are not on any system, there is no reason I can see for this to not work just as well on such products sitting in the two parts of a split system, as long as both have a line in jack on them. And a mere party mode grouping of all Sonos units in both systems separately should have all playing music in perfect sync. Driven by Amazon. That’s Bezos 1, Spence 0.

I don't know if this can work for Google/Chromcast - I have just the one device, so I cannot test. But for sure this means that let alone a lawsuit, Sonos better keep Amazon onside from now on in every way.

For me, nothing changes - once the hardware dies, I no longer need Sonos, I have cheaper replacements I know about, that will do for me all that Sonos does. But others may want to look at this way of keeping Sonos units on different versions still able make music together.

@Ryan S : over to you now.

N

I joined this forum today only to voice my displeasure with this decision.  I have 3 items that are now considered “Legacy” and several others that are not.  I am very disappointed with this decision!!!!  I have recommended Sonos to many people and in most cases they have purchased.  There goes people valuing my recommendations.  My point is, Sonos decision has other impacts.  The part that’s really concerning is a 4 month warning, that’s just unacceptable in my opinion.  

 

After spending thousands with Sonos, this is my Thank You For Your Business?

K

@Noelle : what you have posted is copy of your post on the other thread that is there for venting frustration. This thread is for the next steps - finding solutions available to us that do not rely on Sonos except where that simply cannot be avoided, and there are many such solutions. 

On that basis, how can we help you?

K

Seeing once again this perfect Echo sync that drives via Line In the Sonos sync across two Sonos systems, raises the question I have asked before - how does Echo achieve this trick? I have a suspicion that it isn't done at a local level at all like Sonos does; somewhere in the Alexa cloud, the Echo group is registered as such - as evidenced to an extent by the fact that Echo groups, unlike Sonos ones, survive power cycling. The music streams then are synced in the cloud and sent at the exact same time to each Echo device in the group. That the music also plays in sync at distant destinations after passing through a bunch of devices en-route demonstrates how well this works. If that is indeed the way this works. And if so, there may not be any Sonos patent infringement by Amazon. And given that Amazon may provide Sonos with a solution to this significant issue of integrating split systems, Sonos may not even want to approach any sleeping dogs there, even if there are any such.

N

@Noelle : what you have posted is copy of your post on the other thread that is there for venting frustration. This thread is for the next steps - finding solutions available to us that do not rely on Sonos except where that simply cannot be avoided, and there are many such solutions. 

On that basis, how can we help you?

@Kumar thank you, I definitely should have read the thread.

it definitely looks like this thread provides some great ideas or next steps for my review.

 

K

The more that I think about it, the more I see sense in now forking this thread, handing over the advanced approaches discussions to a new thread, while the simpler approaches that do not need anything more than stereo cables and third party off the shelf boxes to continue on this one, that I will remain associated with.

Anyone here that wishes to start the new thread via a fork to this one may please pm me to arrive at a quick common understanding of how to get this going in a way that allows both threads to remain useful. It will take just one or two back and forth messages to arrive at that, I am sure.

No one has responded to this suggestion, so while the majority of the user base is asleep because of the time differences/weekend, I have taken the opportunity of the quiet time here to fork this thread with a new one opened for advanced approaches, link below.

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-pragmatic-ways-past-it-advanced-approaches-6836622

To recap:

A little over a week ago, I started this thread to engage with like minded people here: those that felt the way I did, as explained in my opening post here. I intended this to be the last thread I open on this site.

This thread has grown beyond expectations. While everyone on it has contributed to keep it profanity free and largely rant free, with an occasional nudge by @Edward R in that effort, just by virtue of its length, it has become unwieldy as all long threads become. And it has many days to run, because the Sonos Brexit event, and the release of detailed information about it by Sonos, are both at least three months away.

I therefore thought that it made sense to break my promise to myself - No More Threads - and make just  one exception to it, by opening a new thread, link above. That one is meant to discuss such approaches and options that may be employed by advanced users that are comfortable going well beyond plug and play options in pursuit of ways past this Sonos Brexit with or without incorporating any Sonos product in it. This thread may then continue to be used for options that probably a majority of Sonos users will be able to employ - the plug and play kind of options towards the same objective. Which are those that employ off the shelf third party devices that are self contained, such as Echo Dots as an example, where the only wiring, if needed, is external - a stereo wire running between Sonos and non Sonos devices. And which do not involve any coding or any attempt to get under the Sonos hood. Or which involve server like devices that need a complex set up to get it to work with Sonos. In brief, something that non geeks - and I am one of those - will be able to cope with are for this thread, while the complex options belong to the new thread, as its title suggests.

There is no set in stone dividing line between the two approaches and none is needed. I am sure that community judgement can be relied on to keep the two threads distinct, linked by a common ethos, in a way that both threads end up being more useful than one thread will be, just by being less unwieldy.

So, well before Sonos forks out legacy and modern systems into two, a fork to serve all that will be effected by the Sonos fork.

 

K

 

it definitely looks like this thread provides some great ideas or next steps for my review.

 

@Noelle Good luck; it is a long and therefore unwieldy thread, an outcome arising out of the nature of an online discussion, so take your time! I am trying to address that by forking the thread into two, as you will see on a post on this page, but even if that helps, we are stuck with the present levels of unwieldiness that nothing can reduce. A legacy problem:-)).

@Ryan S @Edward R : there seems to be something wrong with the link to the last page of this thread, it does not allow me to go directly to the last page from the thread list. I have to open the first page, and then click the last page there, a very tiresome process. I don’t know if this is affecting just me, of course; can you help?

Thanks.

K

I have just concluded testing the Ryan idea referred to in the second paragraph quoted. IT WORKS, OUT OF THE BOX!! Kudos to Ryan!

 

This may be of interest, I just remembered - not only was the Boost/Sonos net powered off when I did the test, one of the Connect Amps even had its WiFi disabled. That suggests that all the syncing is happening in the Amazon domain. And that also suggests that even if Sonos pulls the plug completely on this Connect Amp, it will continue to work as a HiFi quality dumb amplifier till the hardware dies. As well as do grouped in sync play with the other legacy Connect/Connect Amps operating in similar mode, with the Echo devices taking over all the brain functions.

Which makes the Sonos advice to send these to a landfill in exchange for a 30% voucher, at the earliest opportunity, even more shocking - promoting the creation of unnecessary electronic waste just to promote their sales. The feeling at this is of being gobsmacked as such discoveries emerge.

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